Fogbow

LM K wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:22 pm Oh! And there's the fact that Rosenbaum was self-harming. There is no evidence (available to the public) that Rosenbaum was deemed a risk to others.

Sam the Centipede wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:41 am I know nothing of abnormal psychology and have very little experience with people with severe mental health problems (other than dementia etc.) but from those and intuition I suspect that self-harmers with their internalized pain might have less interest in hurting others than average. But I don't know; do you?

LM K wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:22 pm It's extremely hard to trick yourself out of a psychiatric ward. Doctors rely not just on their evaluations of the patient. They rely on the detailed 24/7 hour reports by psychiatric nurses, reports by group therapists, and reports by the other psychiatric experts who worked with the patient. Oh, and patients see more than one psychiatrist. There's the ER hospital admitting doctor, the psychiatric admitting doctor, the assigned treating psychiatrist, and the relief psychiatrist.

Dave from down under wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:12 pm Our chickens would peck us to death if they could…
NEVER turn your back on a chicken - they are just feathered dinosaurs with a taste for meat!

bob wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:29 pm Let someone else say, for example, Rosenbaum was in a combative stance, appeared hypervigilant, was swinging his skateboard like a club, etc.

bob wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:29 pm The way to thread the needle, IMO, is to let other witnesses describe Rosenbaum's actions and appearance. Let someone else say, for example, Rosenbaum was in a combative stance, appeared hypervigilant, was swinging his skateboard like a club, etc. Draw out the evidence of his aggressive appearance without calling him crazy.

"Just defending from a sane aggressor" is a better tactic than accusing the victim rioter of being crazy.

Sam the Centipede wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:41 am

LM K wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:22 pm Oh! And there's the fact that Rosenbaum was self-harming. There is no evidence (available to the public) that Rosenbaum was deemed a risk to others.

Drifting off-topic slightly, here's a question for LM K: is there actually an inverse relationship between self-harming and danger to others?

I know nothing of abnormal psychology and have very little experience with people with severe mental health problems (other than dementia etc.) but from those and intuition I suspect that self-harmers with their internalized pain might have less interest in hurting others than average. But I don't know; do you?

bob wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:55 pm

Foggy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:00 am How's THAT for a nit? My mom woulda been so proud!

Is there a fancy name for a blunt weapon wielded with both hands?

raison de arizona wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:10 amTo be clear, Rittenhouse's FIRST ammunition recipient, Rosenbaum, did NOT have a skateboard. He had a plastic bag containing his belongings from the hospital. Rittenhouse's SECOND ammunition recipient, Huber, had the skateboard. Huber intercepted Rosenbaum fleeing the scene of the original, uh, ammunition gifting.

neeneko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:05 am

LM K wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:22 pm It's extremely hard to trick yourself out of a psychiatric ward. Doctors rely not just on their evaluations of the patient. They rely on the detailed 24/7 hour reports by psychiatric nurses, reports by group therapists, and reports by the other psychiatric experts who worked with the patient. Oh, and patients see more than one psychiatrist. There's the ER hospital admitting doctor, the psychiatric admitting doctor, the assigned treating psychiatrist, and the relief psychiatrist.

Not sure I agree there. Anyone I know who has been involuntarily committed once quickly gets REAL good at working out what doctors want to see so it does not happen again. SI people tend to be doubly incentivized to figure this out since, at least for the agency type, institutionalization slams right into the original problem. The medical system also tends to be underfunded and overworked, thus have an incentive to quickly move people who are not a big issue to make room for those who are.

Or you just wait out the clock. Patients are generally just dumped out on the street after a few days regardless of condition

andersweinstein wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:36 am The FBI infrared video that Binger advertised as showing Rittenhouse "chasing down and confronting" Rosenbaum has come out. Defense claims it supports their own case; they showed portions of it in their opening statement. The aerial video has been synced up and combined with simultaneous video from the ground. Defense apologized for multiple weird cuts saying they were in the original aerial video. If you want to view it without breaks or commentary here's a source:

LM K wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:51 pmThe correlation between suicidality and homicidality is difficult to tease apart. I did a little research but came up short on answers. I'd need to do a deep journal dive to clarify the answer.

When assessing a depressed or manic client psychs always ask the client if they feel suicidal or homicidal.

Foggy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:00 am

bob wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:29 pm Let someone else say, for example, Rosenbaum was in a combative stance, appeared hypervigilant, was swinging his skateboard like a club, etc.

I have held clubs and skateboards. A club is held with one hand. That would be difficult with a skateboard, you'd really have to use two hands to swing it as a weapon. Otherwise the damn thing will fly out of your hand.

How's THAT for a nit? My mom woulda been so proud!

The prosecutor said that it is not known exactly what words were said, but it is clear that Rittenhouse started a confrontation that led Joseph Rosenbaum to begin chasing Rittenhouse across a parking lot.

[Prosecutor] Binger emphasized that Rosenbaum, 36, was killed by a shot to the back after he threw a plastic bag. The first two bullets hit Rosenbaum in the lower extremities, causing him to fall forward, the prosecutor noted.

Richards, the defense attorney, argued that it was Rosenbaum who “lit the fuse that night." Rosenbaum yelled an expletive at Rittenhouse and lunged for his gun before Rittenhouse fired at him, according to the defense.(No video of this.)

Rittenhouse fired four shots in less than a second because Rosenbaum was "trying to take Kyle’s weapon from him to use against him,” Richards said.

Binger, the prosecutor, said that after shooting Rosenbaum, Rittenhouse fled the scene instead of rendering aid, despite portraying himself as a medic earlier in the night. But Richards said Rittenhouse didn’t stop to help because the crowd wanted to “kill him," and instead ran toward police.

raison de arizona wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:10 am To be clear, Rittenhouse's FIRST ammunition recipient, Rosenbaum, did NOT have a skateboard. He had a plastic bag containing his belongings from the hospital. Rittenhouse's SECOND ammunition recipient, Huber, had the skateboard. Huber intercepted Rosenbaum fleeing the scene of the original, uh, ammunition gifting. Not sure how many gifts of ammunition Rosenbaum actually received, at least one to the head, but Rittenhouse attempted to gift him with four, uh, munition gifts.

Grosskreutz, who attended close to 100 protests this summer, carried a medical kit, tourniquets and a pistol.


Huber was attending his second protest. He carried his skateboard, a source of joy and affirmation during a depressing and, according to court documents, violent adolescence, as well as a cellphone to document one of the most consequential nights in his town’s history.


Rosenbaum had never attended a protest, and seemed caught up in this one almost by accident. He carried a clear plastic bag containing a deodorant stick, underwear and socks that the hospital had given him upon discharge following his suicide attempt. In the seconds before he was shot, Rosenbaum threw the plastic bag at Rittenhouse and chased him behind some parked cars.


They talked under the moonlight about how police shootings had been happening for decades in America, and how the difference today was the ability to record it and instantly broadcast it to the world.

So that became the mission: Documenting the protests for posterity. They sketched out a plan on the porch of the crumbling, paint-chipped house that had been the source of so many problems in Huber’s life.


Huber was part of the crowd at the gas station trying to calm Rosenbaum down after a self-styled militia member pointed his gun at the protesters. And he was standing just down the street from the car dealership when Rittenhouse fired the shots that killed Rosenbaum.

“Stop him,” a voice screamed as Rittenhouse jogged down Sheridan Road, according to Grosskreutz’s video footage.

“Get his a--!” someone else yelled.

Huber told Gittings to take cover in a nearby alley. “I tried to grab him,” Gittings said. “I tried to stop him.”

But Huber, skateboard in hand, adrenaline pumping, was already gone.


When his summer internship in Milwaukee was curtailed because of the pandemic, Grosskreutz decided to focus on the protests. He joined a new group, the People’s Revolution, which was calling for an end to police brutality, and he used his training to provide basic medical aid to the marchers and others. He and some friends outfitted a black pickup truck with a red cross and packed it with gauze, water, tourniquets, bandages and quick-clotting agents.

Grosskreutz, a gun owner with a concealed-carry permit, brought a pistol to most of the rallies. As the summer progressed, the protesters were frequently joined by self-described pro-police militias whose members carried rifles.

Some of Grosskreutz’s fellow protesters bought their own firearms for protection. Grosskreutz said he never felt threatened. But the night he was shot felt different from earlier marches.

“For lack of a better term, it felt like a war zone,” he said.

That evening, crowds had gathered around the Kenosha County Courthouse chanting anti-police-brutality slogans and berating officers. Police used stun grenades, tear gas, rubber bullets and armored vehicles to disperse the crowds, and Grosskreutz provided medical aid to an 18-year-old woman who had been hit in the arm by a rubber bullet.


Shortly after the shooting, Grosskreutz called Huber’s girlfriend to offer his support. “We’re bonded for life,” he told her.

She had watched the video of Huber’s final moments before he was shot. The hardest part was seeing how close Huber got to wresting the gun from Rittenhouse in the split second before he was killed. “He almost got it away from him,” Gittings said.

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:40 pm Question: If Rittenhouse was there to help:

2. Why not sling the gun on his back?

LM K wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:00 pm

neeneko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:05 am

LM K wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:22 pm It's extremely hard to trick yourself out of a psychiatric ward. Doctors rely not just on their evaluations of the patient. They rely on the detailed 24/7 hour reports by psychiatric nurses, reports by group therapists, and reports by the other psychiatric experts who worked with the patient. Oh, and patients see more than one psychiatrist. There's the ER hospital admitting doctor, the psychiatric admitting doctor, the assigned treating psychiatrist, and the relief psychiatrist.

Not sure I agree there. Anyone I know who has been involuntarily committed once quickly gets REAL good at working out what doctors want to see so it does not happen again. SI people tend to be doubly incentivized to figure this out since, at least for the agency type, institutionalization slams right into the original problem. The medical system also tends to be underfunded and overworked, thus have an incentive to quickly move people who are not a big issue to make room for those who are.

Or you just wait out the clock. Patients are generally just dumped out on the street after a few days regardless of condition

Our mental health system is far from perfect, or even adequate. Mental health professionals know what to look for. Professionals do much more than asking a patient how they're feeling to assess suicidality.

Disgustingly, patient dumping happens all the time, after patients stabilize. Homeless and newly released incarcerated patients are not served or protected by our system at all.