Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

[andersweinstein]

Surprising slip during opening statement:

Defense attorney Richards: ""This [photo] is Gaige Grosskreutz, the individual who was the victim ... or, excuse me, the complaining witness in Count 5."

In the background of the shot, Judge Schroeder chuckles slightly to himself.

[Dave from down under]

You know your case is weak when even your own lawyer acknowledges those you shot were victims.

[Sam the Centipede]

Oh! And there's the fact that Rosenbaum was self-harming. There is no evidence (available to the public) that Rosenbaum was deemed a risk to others.

Drifting off-topic slightly, here's a question for LM K: is there actually an inverse relationship between self-harming and danger to others?

I know nothing of abnormal psychology and have very little experience with people with severe mental health problems (other than dementia etc.) but from those and intuition I suspect that self-harmers with their internalized pain might have less interest in hurting others than average. But I don't know; do you?

[neeneko]

I know nothing of abnormal psychology and have very little experience with people with severe mental health problems (other than dementia etc.) but from those and intuition I suspect that self-harmers with their internalized pain might have less interest in hurting others than average. But I don't know; do you?

I am also curious to hear LMK's take, but from my own, I see them as orthogonal. Self harm can have multiple underlying motivations, some of which could translate into desire to hurt others, and some not. Most of the SI people I've interacted with over the years have done it for either 'agency' or 'coping' reasons. Both of them could flip to lashing out and hurting others if it satisfied the same need, but no idea if it really contributed or if it was just a case of switching mechanisms.

[neeneko]

It's extremely hard to trick yourself out of a psychiatric ward. Doctors rely not just on their evaluations of the patient. They rely on the detailed 24/7 hour reports by psychiatric nurses, reports by group therapists, and reports by the other psychiatric experts who worked with the patient. Oh, and patients see more than one psychiatrist. There's the ER hospital admitting doctor, the psychiatric admitting doctor, the assigned treating psychiatrist, and the relief psychiatrist.

Not sure I agree there. Anyone I know who has been involuntarily committed once quickly gets REAL good at working out what doctors want to see so it does not happen again. SI people tend to be doubly incentivized to figure this out since, at least for the agency type, institutionalization slams right into the original problem. The medical system also tends to be underfunded and overworked, thus have an incentive to quickly move people who are not a big issue to make room for those who are.

Or you just wait out the clock. Patients are generally just dumped out on the street after a few days regardless of condition

[andersweinstein]

The FBI infrared video that Binger advertised as showing Rittenhouse "chasing down and confronting" Rosenbaum has come out. Defense claims it supports their own case; they showed portions of it in their opening statement. The aerial video has been synced up and combined with simultaneous video from the ground. Defense apologized for multiple weird cuts saying they were in the original aerial video. If you want to view it without breaks or commentary here's a source:



And here's one youtuber's breakdown with a little explanation.

[Foggy]

Our chickens would peck us to death if they could…
NEVER turn your back on a chicken - they are just feathered dinosaurs with a taste for meat!

OMG, I knew it.

Killer Chickens from Oz, hay didn't I tell you?

Every living thing in Oz that doesn't say "G'day" is going to brutally murder you.

[Foggy]

Let someone else say, for example, Rosenbaum was in a combative stance, appeared hypervigilant, was swinging his skateboard like a club, etc.

I have held clubs and skateboards. A club is held with one hand. That would be difficult with a skateboard, you'd really have to use two hands to swing it as a weapon. Otherwise the damn thing will fly out of your hand.

How's THAT for a nit? My mom woulda been so proud!

[raison de arizona]

The way to thread the needle, IMO, is to let other witnesses describe Rosenbaum's actions and appearance. Let someone else say, for example, Rosenbaum was in a combative stance, appeared hypervigilant, was swinging his skateboard like a club, etc. Draw out the evidence of his aggressive appearance without calling him crazy.

"Just defending from a sane aggressor" is a better tactic than accusing the victim rioter of being crazy.

To be clear, Rittenhouse's FIRST ammunition recipient, Rosenbaum, did NOT have a skateboard. He had a plastic bag containing his belongings from the hospital. Rittenhouse's SECOND ammunition recipient, Huber, had the skateboard. Huber intercepted Rosenbaum fleeing the scene of the original, uh, ammunition gifting. Not sure how many gifts of ammunition Rosenbaum actually received, at least one to the head, but Rittenhouse attempted to gift him with four, uh, munition gifts.

[LM K]

Oh! And there's the fact that Rosenbaum was self-harming. There is no evidence (available to the public) that Rosenbaum was deemed a risk to others.

Drifting off-topic slightly, here's a question for LM K: is there actually an inverse relationship between self-harming and danger to others?

I know nothing of abnormal psychology and have very little experience with people with severe mental health problems (other than dementia etc.) but from those and intuition I suspect that self-harmers with their internalized pain might have less interest in hurting others than average. But I don't know; do you?

The correlation between suicidality and homicidality is difficult to tease apart. I did a little research but came up short on answers. I'd need to do a deep journal dive to clarify the answer.

When assessing a depressed or manic client psychs always ask the client if they feel suicidal or homicidal.

[bob]

How's THAT for a nit? My mom woulda been so proud!

Is there a fancy name for a blunt weapon wielded with both hands?

* * *

To be clear, Rittenhouse's FIRST ammunition recipient, Rosenbaum, did NOT have a skateboard. He had a plastic bag containing his belongings from the hospital. Rittenhouse's SECOND ammunition recipient, Huber, had the skateboard. Huber intercepted Rosenbaum fleeing the scene of the original, uh, ammunition gifting.

Thanks. But, yeah, the defense would be better off letting evidence show that Rosenbaum was aggressive, and not rely on his hospitalization status.

[LM K]

It's extremely hard to trick yourself out of a psychiatric ward. Doctors rely not just on their evaluations of the patient. They rely on the detailed 24/7 hour reports by psychiatric nurses, reports by group therapists, and reports by the other psychiatric experts who worked with the patient. Oh, and patients see more than one psychiatrist. There's the ER hospital admitting doctor, the psychiatric admitting doctor, the assigned treating psychiatrist, and the relief psychiatrist.

Not sure I agree there. Anyone I know who has been involuntarily committed once quickly gets REAL good at working out what doctors want to see so it does not happen again. SI people tend to be doubly incentivized to figure this out since, at least for the agency type, institutionalization slams right into the original problem. The medical system also tends to be underfunded and overworked, thus have an incentive to quickly move people who are not a big issue to make room for those who are.

Or you just wait out the clock. Patients are generally just dumped out on the street after a few days regardless of condition

Our mental health system is far from perfect, or even adequate. Mental health professionals know what to look for. Professionals do much more than asking a patient how they're feeling to assess suicidality.

Disgustingly, patient dumping happens all the time, after patients stabilize. Homeless and newly released incarcerated patients are not served or protected by our system at all.

[LM K]

The FBI infrared video that Binger advertised as showing Rittenhouse "chasing down and confronting" Rosenbaum has come out. Defense claims it supports their own case; they showed portions of it in their opening statement. The aerial video has been synced up and combined with simultaneous video from the ground. Defense apologized for multiple weird cuts saying they were in the original aerial video. If you want to view it without breaks or commentary here's a source:

Thank you for providing this, Anders. I haven't fully caffeinated yet, so I'll watch it soon.

I do appreciate you posting this for the gaggle!

[bob]

The correlation between suicidality and homicidality is difficult to tease apart. I did a little research but came up short on answers. I'd need to do a deep journal dive to clarify the answer.

When assessing a depressed or manic client psychs always ask the client if they feel suicidal or homicidal.

I recall it has a special designation ("morbid affect"), but I've seen only in obvious cases, i.e., the patient had attempted to (seriously) harm self and others.

[LM K]

Let someone else say, for example, Rosenbaum was in a combative stance, appeared hypervigilant, was swinging his skateboard like a club, etc.

I have held clubs and skateboards. A club is held with one hand. That would be difficult with a skateboard, you'd really have to use two hands to swing it as a weapon. Otherwise the damn thing will fly out of your hand.

How's THAT for a nit? My mom woulda been so proud!

Pfffff. Obviously you don't haven't have a young person superpowers!

The defense's claim that a skateboard could be used to decapitate a person was unwise. Yes, a skateboard could be used as an effective weapon to hurt someone. But chopping someone's head off? Can a jury look past such hyperbole? Perhaps. If I were a juror (in any trial), I'm not sure I could. Or would. Such comments are insulting to other's intelligence.

ETA: Oops

[Kendra]

PBS is live streaming the trial.

[raison de arizona]

Not to but FWIW the prosecution did refer to Rittenhouse as an "active shooter" during yesterday's festivities.

[RVInit]

As a juror, I find that video not to be convincing that Rittenhouse was just some innocent that got chased for no reason. Early in the video Rosenbaum is clearly minding his own business. He seems to be walking normally, and he does not "give chase" until after Rittenhouse has clearly already chased other people. That much is clear from the video, Rittenhouse seems to be giving chase to others before anyone chased him. It will be interesting to see how many of those other people testify in court as to words that were spoken and what caused people to start chasing Rittenhouse in the beginning. I believe I clearly understand why people chased him after he shot his first victim (yeah, I'm using that word), especially since he turned tail and ran after shooting him. They more than likely believed they could disarm a gunman who had just shot someone dead. As for Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse, that clearly happens after Rittenhouse is already apparently "engaging", chasing other people. It's clear to me from that footage that Rosenbaum appears to be minding his own business up to the point where there are people running and chasing and one of them has a gun.

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

Interesting fact I learned watching the trial: Joseph Rosenbaum died by a shot to his back.

The prosecutor said that it is not known exactly what words were said, but it is clear that Rittenhouse started a confrontation that led Joseph Rosenbaum to begin chasing Rittenhouse across a parking lot.

[Prosecutor] Binger emphasized that Rosenbaum, 36, was killed by a shot to the back after he threw a plastic bag. The first two bullets hit Rosenbaum in the lower extremities, causing him to fall forward, the prosecutor noted.

Richards, the defense attorney, argued that it was Rosenbaum who “lit the fuse that night." Rosenbaum yelled an expletive at Rittenhouse and lunged for his gun before Rittenhouse fired at him, according to the defense.(No video of this.)

Rittenhouse fired four shots in less than a second because Rosenbaum was "trying to take Kyle’s weapon from him to use against him,” Richards said.

Binger, the prosecutor, said that after shooting Rosenbaum, Rittenhouse fled the scene instead of rendering aid, despite portraying himself as a medic earlier in the night. But Richards said Rittenhouse didn’t stop to help because the crowd wanted to “kill him," and instead ran toward police.

For rikker:
https://madison.com/news/state-regional ... 7359e.html

[LM K]

To be clear, Rittenhouse's FIRST ammunition recipient, Rosenbaum, did NOT have a skateboard. He had a plastic bag containing his belongings from the hospital. Rittenhouse's SECOND ammunition recipient, Huber, had the skateboard. Huber intercepted Rosenbaum fleeing the scene of the original, uh, ammunition gifting. Not sure how many gifts of ammunition Rosenbaum actually received, at least one to the head, but Rittenhouse attempted to gift him with four, uh, munition gifts.

Rosenbaum's bag weighed almost nothing. It contained a travel size deodorant (container and product approx 2ounces. Add 1-2 pair of socks and 1-2 pair of underwear, ya have a bag weighing maybe a pound.

Grosskreutz, who attended close to 100 protests this summer, carried a medical kit, tourniquets and a pistol.


Huber was attending his second protest. He carried his skateboard, a source of joy and affirmation during a depressing and, according to court documents, violent adolescence, as well as a cellphone to document one of the most consequential nights in his town’s history.


Rosenbaum had never attended a protest, and seemed caught up in this one almost by accident. He carried a clear plastic bag containing a deodorant stick, underwear and socks that the hospital had given him upon discharge following his suicide attempt. In the seconds before he was shot, Rosenbaum threw the plastic bag at Rittenhouse and chased him behind some parked cars.


They talked under the moonlight about how police shootings had been happening for decades in America, and how the difference today was the ability to record it and instantly broadcast it to the world.

So that became the mission: Documenting the protests for posterity. They sketched out a plan on the porch of the crumbling, paint-chipped house that had been the source of so many problems in Huber’s life.


Huber was part of the crowd at the gas station trying to calm Rosenbaum down after a self-styled militia member pointed his gun at the protesters. And he was standing just down the street from the car dealership when Rittenhouse fired the shots that killed Rosenbaum.

“Stop him,” a voice screamed as Rittenhouse jogged down Sheridan Road, according to Grosskreutz’s video footage.

“Get his a--!” someone else yelled.

Huber told Gittings to take cover in a nearby alley. “I tried to grab him,” Gittings said. “I tried to stop him.”

But Huber, skateboard in hand, adrenaline pumping, was already gone.


When his summer internship in Milwaukee was curtailed because of the pandemic, Grosskreutz decided to focus on the protests. He joined a new group, the People’s Revolution, which was calling for an end to police brutality, and he used his training to provide basic medical aid to the marchers and others. He and some friends outfitted a black pickup truck with a red cross and packed it with gauze, water, tourniquets, bandages and quick-clotting agents.

Grosskreutz, a gun owner with a concealed-carry permit, brought a pistol to most of the rallies. As the summer progressed, the protesters were frequently joined by self-described pro-police militias whose members carried rifles.

Some of Grosskreutz’s fellow protesters bought their own firearms for protection. Grosskreutz said he never felt threatened. But the night he was shot felt different from earlier marches.

“For lack of a better term, it felt like a war zone,” he said.

That evening, crowds had gathered around the Kenosha County Courthouse chanting anti-police-brutality slogans and berating officers. Police used stun grenades, tear gas, rubber bullets and armored vehicles to disperse the crowds, and Grosskreutz provided medical aid to an 18-year-old woman who had been hit in the arm by a rubber bullet.


Shortly after the shooting, Grosskreutz called Huber’s girlfriend to offer his support. “We’re bonded for life,” he told her.

She had watched the video of Huber’s final moments before he was shot. The hardest part was seeing how close Huber got to wresting the gun from Rittenhouse in the split second before he was killed. “He almost got it away from him,” Gittings said.

After school shootings, we praise anyone that disarms the shooter. But those trying to disarm Rittenhouse were trying to kill him?

There is a lot of talk about Grosskreutz' gun. The defense argues the Grosskreutz was going to kill Rittenhouse. Where's the evidence of that? Grosskreutz had a concealed weapons permit. He just witnessed Rittenhouse shoot at 2 men right next to him. He saw Huber fall after being shot by Rittenhouse. Couldn't it be argued that Grosskreutz had his weapon in his hand for self-defense against the kid who just at shot two people right next to him?

I guess a good guy with a gun is viewed only as a good guy if he agrees with someone's political ideology.

Much is made about Rittenhouse providing medical assistance at the protest. Grosskreutz was a trained EMT, providing medical care at the protest.

Just how will the defense wiggle around this pic?

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

Question: If Rittenhouse was there to help:
1. Why take a gun?
2. Why not sling the gun on his back?

[Azastan]

Question: If Rittenhouse was there to help:

2. Why not sling the gun on his back?

This has always been my first thought. If you were there to help and claim to have taken medical supplies to 'help', why are you striding along the street with a gun ready to be fired as soon as you get your finger on that trigger?

[RVInit]

I'm listening a little bit in between work. This testimony that I'm hearing right now is not good for Rittenhouse. He is pointing out that all the armed guys on the roof and on the ground are there in part to "protect me". So, if his life was in danger then why didn't any other of those armed snipers and other armed assholes shoot the people who were after Rittenhouse? Probably because none of them believed unarmed people were posing a threat to Rittenhouse's life.

[Foggy]

It was hard for his friends on the roof to see at that distance whether Huber sharpened the edge of his deadly decapitating skateboard or not.

[Patagoniagirl]

It's extremely hard to trick yourself out of a psychiatric ward. Doctors rely not just on their evaluations of the patient. They rely on the detailed 24/7 hour reports by psychiatric nurses, reports by group therapists, and reports by the other psychiatric experts who worked with the patient. Oh, and patients see more than one psychiatrist. There's the ER hospital admitting doctor, the psychiatric admitting doctor, the assigned treating psychiatrist, and the relief psychiatrist.

Not sure I agree there. Anyone I know who has been involuntarily committed once quickly gets REAL good at working out what doctors want to see so it does not happen again. SI people tend to be doubly incentivized to figure this out since, at least for the agency type, institutionalization slams right into the original problem. The medical system also tends to be underfunded and overworked, thus have an incentive to quickly move people who are not a big issue to make room for those who are.

Or you just wait out the clock. Patients are generally just dumped out on the street after a few days regardless of condition

Our mental health system is far from perfect, or even adequate. Mental health professionals know what to look for. Professionals do much more than asking a patient how they're feeling to assess suicidality.

Disgustingly, patient dumping happens all the time, after patients stabilize. Homeless and newly released incarcerated patients are not served or protected by our system at all.

Where you are and the protocols are vastly different than my experience involuntary committed. I actually committed myself, but all the paperwork listed involuntary. I met a nurse, did an initial evaluation and was put in a common hospital room. The next day, we watched television , played card, did the "One Flew Over the CooCoos Nest" line up for meds. A group session to discuss anger/hurt/grievances or depression with crayons in workbooks. Then TV. Dukes of Hazard. Day three, first time meeting with an actual doctor and staff. Since.it was Saturday, I was told I would have to stay until Monday. That's not legal. Unless they determined I was a danger to myself or others, which I was not. I went because I was profoundly sad and depressed. Not because I wanted to kill myself.

So I was released because the notations and records showed I was not a danger to myself or others, and it was against the law to keep me past three days just because there were no administrative hearings until Monday. Gathered my belongings in a clear plastic bag and found someone to give me a ride home. Later, I got a bill for $27k. It's a money-making business in some states. And a humiliating experience.

I dont k ow what this victims issues were. But it is possible he may not have gotten the care he needed. Or maybe he didnt need the care.

Just saying.


Edit to add: had I swung my clear plastic bag at someone, would that justify a. Shot in the head with a semi-automatic weapon?

.