Religious Threadjacks

[Sam the Centipede]

I too was dragged into (not Catholic) church most Sundays when I was young, and/or sent to a Sunday School where inadequate adults would patronize us with infantile versions of bible stories about why we should be good people so we would go to heaven. From quite a young age my rational mind whispered to me "that is a wholly selfish and unworthy rationale, one should be kind and help others because it is the right thing to do and because one wishes to, not in tawdry expectation of some future reward."

Perhaps this is why I was significantly older before I belatedly realized that many (most?) people attend church services because they actually wish to be there and even enjoy the experience, not because their family drags them there or they feel obliged by their beliefs. Not me!

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

My friend was raised in a fundamental church. It was not affiliated with any denomination and most of its members lived in the "holler" where the church was located. At age 6 or so she had a realization that "none of this makes any sense.". She still attended and enjoyed the singing but not the preaching.

[Azastan]

Perhaps this is why I was significantly older before I belatedly realized that many (most?) people attend church services because they actually wish to be there and even enjoy the experience, not because their family drags them there or they feel obliged by their beliefs. Not me!

They may enjoy the experience, but it appears that most don't actually put the lessons learned to good use*.

*I haven't set foot in a church for a religious service in over 50 years, so I don't know if people are still hearing lessons like this one:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I've had people argue with me that this does not apply to just any stranger, but only to CHRISTIAN strangers. Which seems a bit odd, because these are the same people who harp about illegal immigrants and homeless people, many of whom might consider themselves to be Christians.

[Suranis]

I've had people argue with me that this does not apply to just any stranger, but only to CHRISTIAN strangers. Which seems a bit odd, because these are the same people who harp about illegal immigrants and homeless people, many of whom might consider themselves to be Christians.

This is where I point out that the largest single lynching event in US History involved Catholics. Italian Immigrants. Not Christians.

And what Religion are the hoards of people from Mexico? Yep, Catholics. In other words, Not Christians.

I of course am not saying that they are up in arms just because of the heathen Catholics invading the shining city on the hill. But it sure does not hurt, and provides lubricant for that flow of emoticon.

[raison de arizona]

Yep, Catholics. In other words, Not Christians.

At risk of sounding ignorant... Wait, what? Catholics aren't Christians?

[Suranis]

Yep, Catholics. In other words, Not Christians.

At risk of sounding ignorant... Wait, what? Catholics aren't Christians?

It's a statement that is prevalent enough that it got a Reddit thread.

[qbawl]

From the article:

"The error also means that because baptism is the first of the sacraments, some people will need to repeat other sacraments, according to the diocese webpage for frequently asked questions. CNN has reached out to the diocese for comment on other sacraments."

So can we assume there is now a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card for Holy Matrimony‽ Asking for a friend.

[RTH10260]

I believe that is prevalent in the US who miss the European history of the Middle Ages leading up to Reformation.

[jcolvin2]

I've had people argue with me that this does not apply to just any stranger, but only to CHRISTIAN strangers. Which seems a bit odd, because these are the same people who harp about illegal immigrants and homeless people, many of whom might consider themselves to be Christians.

It is quite odd. The essential innovation of Christianity (as compared to other Judaic sects) was a turn away from in-group focus, to reaching out and accepting other people (i.e. the Good Samaritan), specifically including them in their food rituals (the Eucharist).

[neonzx]

The only Pope I follow is:

https://twitter.com/Popehat/


I'll see myself out...

[Azastan]

Yep, Catholics. In other words, Not Christians.

At risk of sounding ignorant... Wait, what? Catholics aren't Christians?

The Irish have for centuries been portrayed in cartoons as brutish apes, and Catholic. Not human. Barely above the level of a Negro, if even that (see the link). Definitely not 'Christian'.

https://flashbak.com/the-simian-negroid ... ons-12727/

It is quite odd. The essential innovation of Christianity (as compared to other Judaic sects) was a turn away from in-group focus, to reaching out and accepting other people (i.e. the Good Samaritan), specifically including them in their food rituals (the Eucharist).

That is old thinking. The following is how the parable of the sheep and the goats is now interpreted:

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

Which has been twisted to mean that just saying "I believe Jesus died for my sins" is enough. No need to do good works. No need to think of others. This is what my neighbour tells me.

[Suranis]

Ya the "Monkey irish" cartoons are famous here in Ireland, for obvious reasons. Interestingly, however, the Catholic Clergy were never given the full monkey treatment, they were just turned into thick browed low forehead thugs, often ordering the monkey Irish around. Like this cartoon from the page above.

[neeneko]

Yep, Catholics. In other words, Not Christians.

At risk of sounding ignorant... Wait, what? Catholics aren't Christians?

Ah, thinking back to Chick Tracts.

In the early US, every denomination thought THEY were the Christians and others were not. Often in the US when people talk about 'real' Christians what they are generally picturing is Evangelical Protestants as the true followers of christ, and thus everyone else (including Catholics, Mormons, Quakers, Orthodox flavors, etc) are servants of satan. Baptists used to fall into this category too but managed to 'join the mainstream' and it could be argued that American Roman Catholics have been going through this transition over the last few decades.

[poplove]

Yep, Catholics. In other words, Not Christians.

At risk of sounding ignorant... Wait, what? Catholics aren't Christians?

Ah, thinking back to Chick Tracts.

In the early US, every denomination thought THEY were the Christians and others were not. Often in the US when people talk about 'real' Christians what they are generally picturing is Evangelical Protestants as the true followers of christ, and thus everyone else (including Catholics, Mormons, Quakers, Orthodox flavors, etc) are servants of satan. Baptists used to fall into this category too but managed to 'join the mainstream' and it could be argued that American Roman Catholics have been going through this transition over the last few decades.

I was also going to mention Chick Tracts. Years ago, I would find them in various places, mostly on library shelves (where I worked at the time) or at gas stations. One was left on my car door handle in my driveway a few years ago. My daughter occasionally finds them at the library where she works. We laugh at how stupid they are.

[jcolvin2]

That is old thinking. The following is how the parable of the sheep and the goats is now interpreted:

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

Which has been twisted to mean that just saying "I believe Jesus died for my sins" is enough. No need to do good works. No need to think of others. This is what my neighbour tells me.

My favorite take on the parable of the sheep and the goats:

[Azastan]

My favorite take on the parable of the sheep and the goats:

That was interesting. And weird.

[Suranis]

Which has been twisted to mean that just saying "I believe Jesus died for my sins" is enough. No need to do good works. No need to think of others. This is what my neighbour tells me.

It also goes back to Luther, who would up rejecting that good works were necessary for salvation, and decided that Faith alone was enough. For example, in thesis 25 he wrote “He is not righteous who does much, but he who, without, work, believes much in Christ.” He had a vague idea that that Good works would flow from true scriptural Faith, but he rejected good works as necessary.

Naturally, not having to do good works proved rather popular.

[jcolvin2]

Naturally, not having to do good works proved rather popular.

That seems a rather cynical take on Luther. While Luther believed salvation could only be obtained through faith, reasoning that one who only makes an outward show - good works - has not found salvation, he was emphatic that true faith would naturally result in "good works" being performed by the believer.

https://salemcc.instructure.com/courses ... ad%20faith.

The man on the street hypocrite, like me, still had to perform good works to show he was among the faithful.

[Foggy]

Troo cornfession:

I walked out of St. Paul's Cathedral in London on Christmas Eve in the middle of the service, leaving my Catholic girlfriend Cathy in the church. I waited across the street.

I am not a believer. I was in a crowd of believers who were all unified in their thoughts and beliefs, and I felt like I really did not belong in the group. I felt like my presence kind of detracted from their spiritual experience, and like I was a red spot in a sea of green spots.

Funny, she still kept me for a few years after that, so I guess she forgave me.

I might have some trouble if'n I die and meet St. Peter. He likes St. Paul, I reckon.

[bill_g]

My favorite take on the parable of the sheep and the goats:

That was interesting. And weird.

I like this one better.

[Kriselda Gray]

I've had people argue with me that this does not apply to just any stranger, but only to CHRISTIAN strangers. Which seems a bit odd, because these are the same people who harp about illegal immigrants and homeless people, many of whom might consider themselves to be Christians.

This is where I point out that the largest single lynching event in US History involved Catholics. Italian Immigrants. Not Christians.

And what Religion are the hoards of people from Mexico? Yep, Catholics. In other words, Not Christians.

I of course am not saying that they are up in arms just because of the heathen Catholics invading the shining city on the hill. But it sure does not hurt, and provides lubricant for that flow of emoticon.

Maybe it's different where you are, but Catholics in the US are considered to be Christians - at least in my experience and from what I've seen, heard and read in general. President Biden is Catholic and it wasn't at all controversial when he was running for office like it would have been if someone considered non-Christian were running. And I've seen/heard many commenting on the role his "Christian faith" plays in his life. Also, Catholicism is often referred to as one of the largest Christian denominations.

[neeneko]

That seems a rather cynical take on Luther. While Luther believed salvation could only be obtained through faith, reasoning that one who only makes an outward show - good works - has not found salvation, he was emphatic that true faith would naturally result in "good works" being performed by the believer.

Which gets to the real appeal of Luther and those that came after. Simply building a framework where good works are not needed is ok, but building one where the goodness of works is tied to amount of faith, thus any works done by a true believer are 'good'' and to attack the morals of their work is to attack their faith and god himself, now that draws people in and can be converted to political power.

[RTH10260]

My favorite take on the parable of the sheep and the goats gnats:

what my tired eyes decoded

[neeneko]

Maybe it's different where you are, but Catholics in the US are considered to be Christians - at least in my experience and from what I've seen, heard and read in general. President Biden is Catholic and it wasn't at all controversial when he was running for office like it would have been if someone considered non-Christian were running. And I've seen/heard many commenting on the role his "Christian faith" plays in his life. Also, Catholicism is often referred to as one of the largest Christian denominations.

Catholics as Christians in the US is a bit like, say, LGBT rights. Go back 40 years and was a pretty solid 'no, they are not. Today there is 'inside voice vs outside voice' and a patchwork of old vs new beliefs on the topic. The political realities have also changed a great deal over the last few decades, and new alliances have changed how thought leaders in the evangelical community describe them.

[bill_g]

Though already stated, the argument that Catholics are not Christian is an old tactic to empower one denomination over another. Think of it as a corrolary to the Nativist versus Pluralist arguments: Why, They can't be one of Us - They're _(insert disfavored group here)_. It's also an extension of the tensions between Spain and England back in the Colonial Days. This was just one of the many boxes that could be ticked to determine if You could or would be accepted into society. This is why separate but equal was considered a good compromise. Most Peoples had already practiced living (somewhat) peacefully next door to someone they detested for centuries. They were already adept at it.