Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

[bob]

A huge problem with this discussion is that the Defendant’s advocate does not know what the word “evidence “ means in the context of a legal proceeding.

Or how to use rhetoric in an attempt to persuade instead of just trying to score points. E.g.:

that just on its face, abundant evidence strongly suggests he was no kind of extremist, had no hostility to the protestors, but was a purely defensive shooter acting out of genuine fear for his life.

Good thing it wasn't "clearly" or "obviously."

Self-defense cases are about circumstantial evidence, i.e., what evidence suggests a fear of immediate harm, and credibility, i.e., I believe the defendant did honestly fear even if those fears may have been unreasonable.

How this kind of evidence is interpreted is highly dependent on who is doing the interpreting -- different people can interpret and weigh the same evidence differently. Reasonable people acknowledge other reasonable people might have differing views; unreasonable people insist there is only one correct view.

So an oft-wrong, unlistening, arrogant demand that there's only one way to interpret such evidence is unsurprisingly unpersuasive.

Yet here we are.

But it looks to me like a lot of the pushback is coming from people who are just not that informed on the facts

Never insult your jury and then expect them to vote your way, "counselor."

[andersweinstein]

Self-defense cases are about circumstantial evidence, i.e., what evidence suggests a fear of immediate harm, and credibility, i.e., I believe the defendant did honestly fear even if those fears may have been unreasonable.

How this kind of evidence is interpreted is highly dependent on who is doing the interpreting -- different people can interpret and weigh the same evidence differently. Reasonable people acknowledge other reasonable people might have differing views; unreasonable people insist there is only one correct view.

I agree 100% with this. It could be a problem with the jury.

If someone is familiar with info we have about the case, in particular has watched video of his behavior that night, and comes to a different conclusion, so be it.

[Dave from down under]

Let’s assume that the criminal case against him fails.

Can he be sued for wrongful death?

If so - can his bail money be the target?

[bob]

Let’s assume that the criminal case against him fails.

Can he be sued for wrongful death?

Yes; just ask OJ.

If so - can his bail money be the target?

I assume his assets will have long since been hidden away by the time there would be a civil verdict.

[Dave from down under]

Thanks

The reason I asked about the bail money is that I assume that would be only identifiable asset until he gets book deals and paid appearances.

[Gregg]

First, i do hope he tells the IRS about that money he go funded. I suspect it might be taxable income.

That would be fine by me., by the time the lawyers, bail bondsman and the tax man take their cut he might not have a golden parachute.

[Flatpoint High]

Thanks

The reason I asked about the bail money is that I assume that would be only identifiable asset until he gets book deals and paid appearances.

Do IL and MO have "Son of Sam" laws?

[andersweinstein]

Let’s assume that the criminal case against him fails.

Can he be sued for wrongful death?

If so - can his bail money be the target?

According to the Kenosha News story from February below, by law the $2 Million bail money will be returned to the person who paid it, which is John Pierce, who was the attorney who handled Kyle's release. It says he paid the bail with a cashier's check from his firm, listing his own home address on the paperwork.

It was raised by Lin Wood's "Fight Back Foundation" which is some sort of charitable entity. Pierce parted ways with that organization some time ago. Pierce has also been fired by Rittenhouse as attorney and criticized by his currently constituted defense fund.

I guess it ought to go back to the FightBack foundation which raised it. But it wouldn't be surprising if legal action will be required to recover it.

Dispute brewing over future of the $2 million bond posted in Rittenhouse case

[Dave from down under]

may the grifters fight it out in court for decades..

[Luke]

may the grifters fight it out in court for decades..

This sounds like a job for Orly Taitz! How do we hook her into this? Maybe give Lin Wood her number? This could be another Liberi v Taitz

LOVE your writing Maybenaut, so much respect for you. And Sugar, your points are always a pleasure to read. Not knowing enough about this, my thought is with Dave from down under that Foggy agreed with: "Criminal with illegal gun deliberately shoots people. The end." But that's for the trial to work out, and as Maybenaut said, as long as it's a fair trial, I'm good with the result.

Will Sommer did a piece on Pierce:

He Repped Kyle Rittenhouse, MAGA Monkey Owners… and Capitol Rioters
“He’s not a defense attorney, and therefore he’s not an especially good defense attorney,” one journalist who has covered lawyer John Pierce’s filings said.
Will Sommer Politics Reporter
Updated Aug. 02, 2021 11:11AM ET / Published Aug. 02, 2021 3:50AM ET

The U.S. Capitol riot launched one of the largest investigations in Justice Department history, with hundreds of defendants now facing charges. But the lawyer who’s put himself at the center of nearly 20 of the legal defenses has plenty of problems of his own—from a bizarre legal strategy and looming debts to a struggling case defending a handful of chimpanzees.

Once a high-flying civil attorney, lawyer John Pierce has reinvented himself, in the face of mountains of debt, as a go-to lawyer for conservative causes célèbres. After being fired from representing accused Kenosha, Wisconsin, murder suspect Kyle Rittenhouse over a financial dispute, Pierce has become perhaps the most public legal face of the Jan. 6 defense, representing more than a dozen clients as he tries out unorthodox legal strategies and jousts with his critics on Twitter. But even as his star rises on the right, Pierce has been undermined by a bizarre tweet appearing to threaten federal officials, an employee facing felony charges for allegedly defrauding a grandmother, and his own financial woes. Pierce declined to comment.

Pierce now represents at least 17 of the Jan. 6 defendants, more than any other lawyer. His clients include Proud Boy William Pepe and L. Brent Bozell IV, the son of conservative media commentator L. Brent Bozell III. Pierce also represents Ryan Samsel, an accused rioter identified by prosecutors as the man caught on video consulting with a top Proud Boy leader before attacking police officers in the riot’s first minutes.

“We are going to take every one of these cases to trial, we are going to seek full acquittals, and in that process we are going to find out what actually happened on Jan. 6,” Pierce said at a June rally in support of the riot defendants. In one court hearing, Pierce said he would pursue a “public authority defense”—an unusual legal tactic sometimes used by informants that would see him argue that his clients believed that the government, in the form of Donald Trump, had legally sanctioned their law-breaking.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-pier ... ol-rioters

I'm keenly interested in hearing more about wiener dogs taking the stick.

[Foggy]

... we are going to seek full acquittals ...

Those are better than just plain acquittals. Kinda like high treason is worse than regular treason, or sumpin'.

Off Topic

Yesterday at the Seattle Zoo I really did convince a three year old boy that the hippos were "out of gas" and we needed to take them to the gas station. "See how they're not moving?"

So he told his mom (my niece), "Mom, we have to take the hippos to the gas station."

My work here is done.

[neonzx]

Off Topic

Yesterday at the Seattle Zoo I really did convince a three year old boy that the hippos were "out of gas" and we needed to take them to the gas station. "See how they're not moving?"

So he told his mom (my niece), "Mom, we have to take the hippos to the gas station."

My work here is done.

Off Topic

You are one of those bad uncles, making problems.

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

My brothers are both bad uncles. We taught our sons to look for evidence of "pulling your leg", then to say, "Eat my dust."

[raison de arizona]

Obviously not evidence of Rittenhouse's guilt, but let's be clear about some of the groups that are supporting him.

Action Zealandia, NZ's largest neo-Nazi group, on the hunt for new recruits

This week, in an attempt to claim August 9 as "White Lives Matter Day", the group's leaders demanded that all of its chapters do banner drops and poster runs in the days leading up to August 9.

Action Zealandia members attempted to plaster "White Lives Matter" and "Kyle Rittenhouse Was Right" posters in the Dunedin City Centre in June, but fled the area after they were approached by members of the public. (Kyle Rittenhouse was a 17-year-old American charged with shooting and killing two protesters at a Black Lives Matter protest in Wisconsin in 2020). Action Zealandia does not currently have a Dunedin presence — but it has in the past, and it wants to become more active in the city.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/action-ze ... VNAX2DKRA/

And far from disavowing this, Rittenhouse and his legal team have attempted to capitalize on it by selling merch. I know they got shut down a few times, for being, well, racist assholes, but it looks like they've found somewhere to host again.
https://freekyleusastore.com/

The Milo Fund LLC was organized by Wendy Rittenhouse to receive and disburse donations to pay for Kyle's defense.

[raison de arizona]

Today (8/17) in history, seventeen-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse was arrested in Illinois in the shooting deaths of two people and the wounding of another. Court TV has announced live, gavel-to-gavel coverage, in-depth legal reporting, and expert analysis for both the Rittenhouse and Aubrey trials.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 55971.html

[busterbunker]

And today in history:

Father of man killed in Kenosha protest accuses cops of conspiring with militia members

https://www.courthousenews.com/father-o ... a-members/

The father of a protester shot and killed by Kyle Rittenhouse has sued the city, county and law enforcement agencies of Kenosha for allowing the teen and hundreds of other vigilantes to patrol the streets.

“If a Black person had approached police with an assault rifle, offering to patrol the streets with the police, he most likely would have been shot dead,” the lawsuit states. “If a Black child had shot three citizens with an assault rifle and was seen walking away from the scene of the shooting with the assault rifle in hand, while other citizens yelled he was an active shooter, he would have been shot dead.

It continues, "In none of these circumstances would defendants have permitted the individual to roam the streets, illegally and heavily armed, shoot civilians, and then walk past a dozen officers, talk to them, and simply go home.”

[raison de arizona]

And today in history:

Father of man killed in Kenosha protest accuses cops of conspiring with militia members

https://www.courthousenews.com/father-o ... a-members/

The father of a protester shot and killed by Kyle Rittenhouse has sued the city, county and law enforcement agencies of Kenosha for allowing the teen and hundreds of other vigilantes to patrol the streets.

“If a Black person had approached police with an assault rifle, offering to patrol the streets with the police, he most likely would have been shot dead,” the lawsuit states. “If a Black child had shot three citizens with an assault rifle and was seen walking away from the scene of the shooting with the assault rifle in hand, while other citizens yelled he was an active shooter, he would have been shot dead.

It continues, "In none of these circumstances would defendants have permitted the individual to roam the streets, illegally and heavily armed, shoot civilians, and then walk past a dozen officers, talk to them, and simply go home.”

The man killed was named Anthony Huber, here is the lawsuit: https://loevy-content-uploads.s3.amazon ... int_fs.pdf

[Dave from down under]

What is the strengths/weaknesses of this filing?

[bob]

What is the strengths/weaknesses of this filing?

With respect to Rittenhouse's criminal case, very little.

It arguably strengthens the case that Rittenhouse was not in fear for his life. But the evidence isn't particularly compelling, and is relatively collateral to the issues in Rittenhouse's case. The judge in Rittenhouse's case likely would exclude this evidence as a waste of time, confusing as to the actual issues before the jury, etc.

[Dave from down under]

Thank you,

I wasn’t clear

I meant on its own merit as a lawsuit against the named defendants

[tencats]

Rittenhouse made 'vigilante' remarks before shootings: prosecutors
https://www.fox6now.com/news/kenosha-ri ... ial-motion
Published 1 hour ago

KENOSHA, Wis. - Prosecutors say recently found video shows Kyle Rittenhouse talking about firing his assault rifle weeks before the fatal shootings in Kenosha, and they are fighting to get that video entered as evidence.

Preparing for the November homicide trial, Kenosha County prosecutors filed new motions the week of Sunday, Aug. 15, saying the video found earlier in the month could be important evidence. However, the judge would first need to allow it.
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In a 29-second video taken outside of a CVS, a person is heard off-camera talking about firing an assault rifle because he thinks people are shoplifting.

"Bro, I wish I had my (expletive) AR. I'd start shooting rounds at them," the person says.

Prosecutors say the CVS video was taken 15 days before the shootings and can help prove intent. Arguing in a court filing:

"The defendant saw something, jumped to a conclusion based on exactly zero facts, and threatened to kill someone based on baseless assumption and wrongful interpretation."

Prosecutors went on to write:

"The video also demonstrates that the defendant fervently sought to insert himself as an armed vigilante into situations that had nothing to do with him."

[raison de arizona]

The other motion the prosecution made was to unmask all the donors to his $2M bail fund and those that have purchased Rittenhouse's merch. They want to exclude them and their families from serving on the jury. Because they can't be trusted to answer questions honestly on their jury questionnaire.

In a second motion, Binger asks Circuit Judge Bruce Schroeder to compel Rittenhouse to turn over the names of anyone who has donated to his legal defense, $2 million bail or purchased "Free Kyle" merchandise through his family's web site.

Those people, he argues, should not be allowed to serve on the jury for Rittenhouse's trial, currently scheduled for Nov. 1.

Binger said it would be fine if a master list were given only to Schroeder, and then if only names from Kenosha County were shared with the prosecution, which he said might want to further investigate whether those people or family or associates wind up in the pool of potential jurors.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/cri ... 188090002/

[raison de arizona]

Hoodlum
@NotHoodlum
·
8m
Kyle Rittenhouse’s attorney, John Pierce who said he would never get the vaccine, even if forced to - is on a ventilator and non-responsive. Thoughtless prayers.

[Maybenaut]

And he represents a bunch of the January 6 defendants. I assume those people are going to have to get new counsel.

[raison de arizona]

And he represents a bunch of the January 6 defendants. I assume those people are going to have to get new counsel.

Funny you should say that.