Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#1

Post by Luke »

The Birfer Renaissance is here and you know it's going to be wild. How long before they start using "Devi"?

This is more than remainders, I fully expect bots and Russians and dead-enders will be pumping this at max level through November. We need to be ready, and to have facts to counter them. One thing we learned was that the best defense was a good offense, so it's important to shut them down as quickly as possible. Of course we can't change a birfer's mind, but for others reading who have brain cells, it will be obvious they are wrong. Remember the Fogbow motto: Falsehoods Unchallenged Only Fester And Grow.

I might try making an AI video (remember I did that little test "Welcome to the Fogbow" message) with a few debunking facts we could just paste in. That would be a project for me -- if anyone is more familiar with how to do it, it would be great. Then members could just counter the madness with a pre-recorded smack down video.)

As mentioned in the Remainders topic, this is planned for Wed July 24:
Mike Dunford @questauthority 20h
I'm going to try and do a stream tomorrow (likely start time 9 pm Eastern) to explain why this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. (And go over the other predictable birther arguments, and explain why they are nonsense.)

Quote Paul Ingrassia @PaulIngrassia Jul 21
According to constitutional scholar @DrJohnEastman of the @ClaremontInst (an opinion I share alongside many other legal professionals), Kamala Harris is ineligible to serve as President under the 12th Amendment.

Thus, Kamala must step aside for another candidate who is actually a natural born citizen.

Read Eastman’s great legal analysis here: https://newsweek.com/some-questions-kam ... on-1524483

Readers added context
Under the 14th Amendment's Naturalization Clause and the US v. Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case, anyone born on US soil is a natural born citizen, regardless of parental citizenship.
Kamala Harris was born in California, making her a US citizen and eligible to be president
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/natural ... 20169%20US
https://www.whitehouse.gov/administrati ... nt-harris/

Luke Johnson 🇺🇸 @Orly_licious
Terrific! Fogbow knows about it, Bob posted the tweet. Here we go again... Birthers are crawling out of the woodwork. Consider having a list of replies that folks can copy & paste to counter the bullsh*t that will be posted by Russian bots, trolls & folks who didn't take civics.

And...

Discovered something cool -- Amazon Prime Members get a free Twitch sub every month. I had no idea. Subscribed to Mike's channel (usually $5.99, asked him what he receives, they must pay him something).

Mike, Discovered Prime Members get a FREE Twitch channel subscription every month! It's easy. Go to this page: https://gaming.amazon.com/links/twitch/manage, link your Twitch account, activate Prime Gaming (free), refresh the Twitch page, and it shows Subscribe with Prime. Easy & Cool! Can you see it?

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And away we go! Whack a Mole V2.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#2

Post by Luke »

ChatGPT Fact Check and Debunking of Chuckle's garbage article:
► Show Spoiler

I have NO IDEA how ChatGPT knew Chuckles' Twitter handle, it's not in the article. Our overlords are coming.
Let's fact-check and debunk the claims made in the article and write three replies:

Fact-Check and Debunk:
Kamala Harris’s Citizenship: Kamala Harris was born in Oakland, California, on October 20, 1964. According to the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, anyone born on U.S. soil is a natural-born citizen, regardless of the parents' citizenship.

Dual Citizenship: While it is possible for someone to be born with dual citizenship, it does not disqualify them from being a natural-born citizen of the United States. The U.S. Constitution does not prohibit dual citizens from serving as President or Vice President.

Historical and Legal Precedent: There is no legal precedent or interpretation of the "natural-born citizen" clause that requires a candidate's parents to be U.S. citizens. The key requirement is being born on U.S. soil, which Kamala Harris fulfills.

Supreme Court's Stance: The Supreme Court has never ruled that children born in the U.S. to foreign parents are not natural-born citizens. Previous cases, including those involving Barack Obama, have reinforced the understanding that birthright citizenship qualifies as natural-born citizenship.

Replies:
Reply 1:
@CDRKerchner Kamala Harris was born in Oakland, CA, making her a natural-born citizen per the 14th Amendment. Dual citizenship does not disqualify one from U.S. presidency. The Constitution and legal precedent are clear on this. Let's focus on facts, not misinformation.

Reply 2:
@CDRKerchner The term "natural-born citizen" includes anyone born on U.S. soil, regardless of parents' nationality. Kamala Harris was born in California, making her fully eligible. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld this interpretation. Stop spreading falsehoods.

Reply 3:
@CDRKerchner Kamala Harris is a natural-born citizen by virtue of being born in the U.S. The Constitution doesn't bar dual citizens from presidency. Claims otherwise are unfounded and misleading. Let's respect our laws and focus on real issues.



Detailed Debunking:
Claim: Kamala Harris is not a "natural-born citizen" because her parents were foreign nationals, making her ineligible to be President or Vice President.
Legal and Constitutional Background:
14th Amendment: The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, ratified in 1868, states: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." Kamala Harris was born in Oakland, California, making her a citizen at birth under this amendment.

U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898): This landmark Supreme Court case confirmed that anyone born on U.S. soil is a natural-born citizen, regardless of the nationality of their parents. The Court ruled that Wong Kim Ark, born in San Francisco to Chinese nationals, was a U.S. citizen by birth. This case solidified the interpretation of the 14th Amendment's Citizenship Clause.

Ankeny v. Governor of the State of Indiana (2008): The Indiana Court of Appeals ruled that individuals born in the United States are considered natural-born citizens regardless of the citizenship of their parents. This case directly addressed the eligibility of presidential candidates under the "natural-born citizen" clause.

Debunking Specific Claims:
Dual Citizenship:
Claim: Harris's dual citizenship with Jamaica disqualifies her from being a natural-born citizen.

Fact: The concept of dual citizenship does not affect the status of being a natural-born citizen of the United States. The U.S. Constitution does not prohibit dual citizens from holding the office of President or Vice President. Dual citizenship is a separate matter from natural-born citizenship and does not negate the rights conferred by birth on U.S. soil.

Foreign Influence and Allegiance:
Claim: Harris owes allegiance to Jamaica and the English Crown due to her father's Jamaican citizenship.

Fact: Allegiance and citizenship are distinct legal concepts. A person born in the United States is not considered to owe allegiance to any foreign power simply because of their parents' nationality. The 14th Amendment and subsequent case law make it clear that birthright citizenship is not diminished by the nationality of one's parents. The concept of "natural-born citizen" is rooted in being born on U.S. soil, not in the citizenship or allegiance of one’s parents.

Supreme Court and Standing:
Claim: The Supreme Court has avoided ruling on the issue of natural-born citizenship.

Fact: The Supreme Court has addressed the broader implications of birthright citizenship through cases like U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. While the Court has not specifically ruled on a modern presidential candidate's eligibility, the existing legal framework supports the understanding that being born in the United States qualifies one as a natural-born citizen.

Conclusion:
Kamala Harris meets all constitutional requirements to be considered a natural-born citizen of the United States. She was born in Oakland, California, making her a citizen at birth under the 14th Amendment. The arguments against her eligibility based on her parents' nationality or her potential dual citizenship are legally unfounded and contradicted by established Supreme Court rulings and constitutional principles.

Sources:
14th Amendment to the United States Constitution: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/amendments-11-27
U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898): https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/169/649/
Ankeny v. Governor of the State of Indiana (2008): https://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/p ... 801jgb.pdf
This detailed legal and historical context demonstrates that Kamala Harris is unequivocally a natural-born citizen and fully eligible to serve as President or Vice President of the United States.

Expanded Detailed Debunking:
Claim: Kamala Harris is not a "natural-born citizen" because her parents were foreign nationals, making her ineligible to be President or Vice President.
Further Legal and Constitutional Background:
Natural-born Citizen Clause: The U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, states that “No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.” The interpretation of "natural-born citizen" has been consistently understood to mean anyone born on U.S. soil, regardless of their parents' citizenship.

Elk v. Wilkins (1884): Although this case initially dealt with the citizenship status of Native Americans, the Supreme Court’s discussion reinforced that birth within the territorial limits of the United States grants citizenship. The decision clarified that allegiance at birth, as mentioned in the 14th Amendment, pertains to anyone born under U.S. jurisdiction.

Minor v. Happersett (1875): This case addressed voting rights but mentioned in passing that "natural-born citizens" are born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents. However, this was not a binding definition and has been overshadowed by later, more relevant rulings such as U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.

Additional Debunking Specific Claims:
Foreign Parentage and Natural-born Citizenship:
Claim: Harris is disqualified as a natural-born citizen because her parents were not U.S. citizens at her birth.

Fact: The notion that both parents must be U.S. citizens for their child to be a natural-born citizen is a misinterpretation. The prevailing legal standard, reinforced by the Supreme Court in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, is that anyone born on U.S. soil is a natural-born citizen, irrespective of their parents' citizenship. This interpretation aligns with the principles of jus soli (right of the soil), which the U.S. follows.

Historical Interpretation:
Claim: The Founders intended for natural-born citizens to be born to two U.S. citizen parents.

Fact: Historical interpretations and writings, such as those by early Supreme Court justices and framers like James Madison, do not conclusively support this claim. The Constitutional Convention debates did not specify that both parents must be citizens. Instead, the emphasis was on preventing foreign-born individuals from holding the highest office, ensuring loyalty to the U.S. by birth.

Key Legal Precedents:
Schneider v. Rusk (1964): This case dealt with the rights of naturalized citizens but affirmed the principle that the rights of citizenship by birth (natural-born) are inviolable under the Constitution.

Rogers v. Bellei (1971): While this case addressed citizenship issues for those born abroad to U.S. citizens, it underscored the importance of birthright citizenship for those born within the U.S. The distinction made here highlights the broader protection and recognition of citizenship by birth within U.S. territories.

Conclusion:
Kamala Harris's eligibility as a natural-born citizen is firmly grounded in the Constitution and upheld by multiple Supreme Court rulings. The arguments questioning her eligibility based on her parents' nationality are not supported by legal precedent or constitutional interpretation.

Additional Sources:
Elk v. Wilkins (1884): https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/112/94/
Minor v. Happersett (1875): https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/88/162/
Schneider v. Rusk (1964): https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/377/163/
Rogers v. Bellei (1971): https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/401/815/

This expanded context and additional legal precedents further solidify the fact that Kamala Harris is a natural-born citizen and fully eligible to serve as President or Vice President of the United States.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#3

Post by Dr. Ken »

I'll never forget the time chuckles blamed FDR for Hoover having the US Army fire on the bonus army and pretending like he was there and remembered it as it happened.
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#4

Post by MikeDunford »

Just for clarity - stream is today, which I think is a Tuesday but given how Sunday went I'm not positive.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#5

Post by shannon »

Isn't it funny how Chuckles goes on about Kamala Harris' father's citizenship, and completely ignores her mother's India citizenship.

Oh, right, "Sacred Sperm of Citizenship" again.

*Chuckle*

Wonder if a certain mentally unstable "jedi" is going to come back......
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#6

Post by MikeDunford »

If "Jedi" is referring to the Paraclete, I'm given to believe that he's currently understanding the Presidential Records Act at people.
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#7

Post by Foggy »

No, he's referring to Jedi Pauly, I think.

One of the two birfers who managed to parlay birtherism into prison terms. His was an immigration prison in jolly old.
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#8

Post by MikeDunford »

Now there's a name I haven't heard for a long time.
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#9

Post by shannon »

Foggy wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 4:02 pm No, he's referring to Jedi Pauly, I think.

One of the two birfers who managed to parlay birtherism into prison terms. His was an immigration prison in jolly old.
Yep, Jedi Pauly

And my pronouns are she/her.
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#10

Post by bob »

shannon wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 3:38 pm Isn't it funny how Chuckles goes on about Kamala Harris' father's citizenship, and completely ignores her mother's India citizenship.
I hate that I know this, but: Kerchner acknowledges Harris' mother.

Kerchner's blog (in 2020): U.S. Senator Kamala Harris is NOT a ‘natural born Citizen” of USA – NOT Eligible to be VP, or President and CinC:
Neither of Senator Kamala Harris’ parents were U.S. Citizens when Kamala was born in 1964 in CA. Kamala Harris was born to a Jamaican Citizen father (minus one stool leg) and to a Citizen of India mother (minus the 2nd stool leg). They both were sojourning in the USA on temporary VISA’s. Thus she was born with multiple citizenship and allegiance to a foreign country, divided allegiance at birth.

* * *

Given Kamala Harris’ year of birth, and her parents emigration years, she was born in the USA to two foreign nationals, and thus inherited the citizenship of another country when she was born, in addition to being considered to be a basic Citizen of the United States under Positive Law, by being born in the USA to aliens legally living here.
Laity, on the hand (IIRC), has said Harris is a citizen of Jamaica, India, the UK, and the United States.
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#11

Post by shannon »

bob wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 4:56 pmLaity, on the hand (IIRC), has said Harris is a citizen of Jamaica, India, the UK, and the United States.
The time honored birtherstani tradition of "throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks."
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#12

Post by Foggy »

shannon wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 4:55 pm ... my pronouns are she/her.
:doh:

I knew that. Apologies.
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#13

Post by shannon »

Foggy wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 5:57 pm
shannon wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 4:55 pm ... my pronouns are she/her.
:doh:

I knew that. Apologies.
It happens. :)
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#14

Post by Luke »

MikeDunford wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 3:34 pm Just for clarity - stream is today, which I think is a Tuesday but given how Sunday went I'm not positive.
Ouch, I thought the post said tomorrow. I'll dm you Mike... happy to add a new post. Might be good to include the date in posts because it's easy to read "tomorrow" as the wrong date when you're a dummy like me.
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#15

Post by noblepa »

Neither of Senator Kamala Harris’ parents were U.S. Citizens when Kamala was born in 1964 in CA. Kamala Harris was born to a Jamaican Citizen father (minus one stool leg) and to a Citizen of India mother (minus the 2nd stool leg). They both were sojourning in the USA on temporary VISA’s. Thus she was born with multiple citizenship and allegiance to a foreign country, divided allegiance at birth.

* * *

Given Kamala Harris’ year of birth, and her parents emigration years, she was born in the USA to two foreign nationals, and thus inherited the citizenship of another country when she was born, in addition to being considered to be a basic Citizen of the United States under Positive Law, by being born in the USA to aliens legally living here.
I love how the birthers conflate allegiance with birthplace and citizenship.

One may obtain citizenship (in any country that allows birthright citizenship) by birth, but allegiance is a decision that must be made as one becomes aware of one's place in the world.

Babies have no allegiance to anything, except perhaps their mother. They don't even know the meaning of the word allegiance (or any other word, for that matter).

One may be said to "owe a debt of allegiance" to one's home country, but, whether or not one delivers on that debt is a choice. The birthers and others are quick to accuse anyone they don't like, of committing treason. Certainly, a citizen who commits treason is not exhibiting any allegiance to the country.

Place of birth, and the resulting acquisition of citizenship, is a fact. Allegiance is a choice. In my mind, there is very little cause/effect relationship involved.

So, to insist that one born here to foreign parents, automatically has allegiance to his/her parents' home country, is IMHO, a logical fallacy.

Besides, the Constitution says nothing about allegiance at birth as a requirement for the presidency. Nor does it prohibit dual citizenship.
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#16

Post by Foggy »

Off Topic
To me the most amazing thing about Jedi Pauly was, his wife took him back after he ditched her to go live in the UK for the rest of his life, as a political refugee (he claimed Obama was gonna murder him for writing a really stupid book about birther nonsense). That didn't work out for him - he was thrown in immigration prison and deported back to the US - but he went right back home, no worries. If'n I had done that to ol' Wifehorn, I would never have seen her again.
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#17

Post by noblepa »

Foggy wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 6:16 pm
Off Topic
To me the most amazing thing about Jedi Pauly was, his wife took him back after he ditched her to go live in the UK for the rest of his life, as a political refugee (he claimed Obama was gonna murder him for writing a really stupid book about birther nonsense). That didn't work out for him - he was thrown in immigration prison and deported back to the US - but he went right back home, no worries. If'n I had done that to ol' Wifehorn, I would never have seen her again.
But, I'll bet you would have seen her lawyer.
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#18

Post by bob »


BLT has been earning the Sorosbucks.

Vattel: That dude has been dead for over 200 years and still comes back.
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#19

Post by pipistrelle »

All of this goes over my head. I learned if you were born in the U.S., you are eligible to be president. (Okay, I'm vague on U.S. territories, kids born to parents stationed overseas while in the military, Foreign Service, etc.). But born in Oakland? No doubts.
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#20

Post by jez »

They never do keep reading the next couple of sections, do they. Where it states that some states (England, for example) allow just birth in the realm as leading to natural born status without respect to parents.

I've asked during the heyday that if parental citizenship is so important, why is it not on the birth certificate or other paperwork?
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#21

Post by jez »

pipistrelle wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 7:57 pm All of this goes over my head. I learned if you were born in the U.S., you are eligible to be president. (Okay, I'm vague on U.S. territories, kids born to parents stationed overseas while in the military, Foreign Service, etc.). But born in Oakland? No doubts.
The overseas thing can get murky. Typically, the US leases the land from the foreign country for their bases, instead of out right owning it, so I don't think it is considered US soil, per se. But, there is a nifty form that is filled out called the Consular Report of Birth Aboard that can be used if born off base.

Again, it's murky and the rules have changed a few times. As long a US Citizenship can be granted by at birth, I think it's safe to say Natural Born Citizen.

But no C-Sections allowed. :rotflmao:
Edit: ETA: This is something we actually talked about in my social studies class in 7th grade when we lived in West Germany (yes, that long ago).
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#22

Post by bob »

pipistrelle wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 7:57 pm All of this goes over my head. I learned if you were born in the U.S., you are eligible to be president. (Okay, I'm vague on U.S. territories, kids born to parents stationed overseas while in the military, Foreign Service, etc.). But born in Oakland? No doubts.
Natural-born citizen is a subset of citizen; you can be both a citizen and natural-born citizen.

If you are born in the United States (unless your parents are diplomats or an invading army), you're a natural-born citizen.

If you are born in an incorporated U.S. territory, you're a natural-born citizen.

If you are born outside of the United States (and its territories) to two citizen parents, you're a natural-born citizen.

If you are born outside of the United States (and its territories) to at least one citizen parent, you're most likely a natural-born citizen (some exceptions apply).

Military bases, embassies, etc., are not U.S. territory.

Vattel was Swiss Prussian philosopher who never wrote the words "natural-born citizen" (he wrote in French), and died before the U.S. Constitution was drafted. The Framers admired him, just like they admired a lot of thinkers of that era; he was nothing special, tho.
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#23

Post by Foggy »

bob wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:03 pmVattel was Swiss Prussian philosopher who never wrote the words "natural-born citizen" (he wrote in French), and died before the U.S. Constitution was drafted. The Framers admired him, just like they admired a lot of thinkers of that era; he was nothing special, tho.
... and his book was a philosophical work, i.e., he described what he thought the law should be, not what it necessarily was. He didn't write a statute book.
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#24

Post by bob »

Foggy wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:06 pm
bob wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:03 pmVattel was Swiss Prussian philosopher who never wrote the words "natural-born citizen" (he wrote in French), and died before the U.S. Constitution was drafted. The Framers admired him, just like they admired a lot of thinkers of that era; he was nothing special, tho.
... and his book was a philosophical work, i.e., he described what he thought the law should be, not what it necessarily was. He didn't write a statute book.
Exactly; and the Framers never said, "What he said." The Framers never said, "If Vattel said it, that's now the law."
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#25

Post by bob »

How it started:


How's it going:

CHECKMATE, LIBS. :smoking:
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