Balloons, UFOs, and other incursions of US airspace "You send 'em, we shoot' em"

[Dr. Ken]

shoulda waited until it was over MAL

[Foggy]

Did they fish it out of the pond?

[Greatgrey]

Some of you might remember Francis Gary Powers & his “weather plane” from 1960. Blaming your spying on the weather is nothing new.

Something I’m surprised about with the Chinese balloon is that there was no self destruct mechanism. It should have blown itself up when it sensed a rapid descent. Heck, even the Japanese Fu-Go balloons of WW2 had a self destruct device.

[somerset]

Some of you might remember Francis Gary Powers & his “weather plane” from 1960. Blaming your spying on the weather is nothing new.

Something I’m surprised about with the Chinese balloon is that there was no self destruct mechanism. It should have blown itself up when it sensed a rapid descent. Heck, even the Japanese Fu-Go balloons of WW2 had a self destruct device.

Maybe it was a type of balloon that wouldn't normally be equipped with a self-destruct mechanism. Like, say, a weather balloon

[keith]

Why does this remind me of Nena's "99 Red Balloons"?

https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiwgOWo7mDc

The German "99 Luftballons" video is good:

https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpu5a0Bl8eY

Huh. I was today years old when i firzt saw the English translation of this song. Not speaking German i didn’t know what it was talking about, but it is certainly a catchy pop song.

As far as I know they never played the English version on Oz radio. Of course I don't hear every minute of every station.

[Volkonski]

CNN:
US Navy and Coast Guard vessels are securing the area near downed spy balloon, official says

Multiple US Navy and Coast Guard vessels are in the area where the suspected Chinese spy balloon went down and are securing a perimeter,...

...Navy had anticipated having to recover debris in deeper water, but it landed at a depth of about 47 feet, which "will make it fairly easy."

https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-n ... 8ecdac5b20

[much ado]

Some of you might remember Francis Gary Powers & his “weather plane” from 1960. Blaming your spying on the weather is nothing new.

Something I’m surprised about with the Chinese balloon is that there was no self destruct mechanism. It should have blown itself up when it sensed a rapid descent. Heck, even the Japanese Fu-Go balloons of WW2 had a self destruct device.

Yes, certainly remember that. When the problem of shooting down a balloon at 66,000 feet altitude was discussed, I wondered how high the U-2 flew. It flies at 70,000 feet, and a new version is still in service. So shooting down a balloon at 66,000 feet should not be a problem for the USAF. From the Wikipedia article on the Lockheed U-2...

The Lockheed U-2, nicknamed "Dragon Lady", is an American single-jet engine, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft operated by the United States Air Force (USAF) and previously flown by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). It provides day and night, high-altitude (70,000 feet, 21,300 meters), all-weather intelligence gathering.

Lockheed Corporation originally proposed it in 1953, it was approved in 1954, and its first test flight was in 1955.



The U-2 is one of a handful of aircraft types to have served the USAF for over 50 years [...]. The newest models (TR-1, U-2R, U-2S) entered service in the 1980s, and the latest model, the U-2S, had a technical upgrade in 2012.

Lockheed U-2

ETA: There's no information that any U-2 has ever been armed...

[Suranis]

I'm still laughing at the fact that while it was getting shot down, thousands of people were watching the wrong freaking Balloon.

[neonzx]

And wouldn't it be funny if upon retrieving the debris, we find only weather data collection tech?

[Greatgrey]

Some of you might remember Francis Gary Powers & his “weather plane” from 1960. Blaming your spying on the weather is nothing new.

Something I’m surprised about with the Chinese balloon is that there was no self destruct mechanism. It should have blown itself up when it sensed a rapid descent. Heck, even the Japanese Fu-Go balloons of WW2 had a self destruct device.

Yes, certainly remember that. When the problem of shooting down a balloon at 66,000 feet altitude was discussed, I wondered how high the U-2 flew. It flies at 70,000 feet, and a new version is still in service. So shooting down a balloon at 66,000 feet should not be a problem for the USAF. From the Wikipedia article on the Lockheed U-2...

The Lockheed U-2, nicknamed "Dragon Lady", is an American single-jet engine, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft operated by the United States Air Force (USAF) and previously flown by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). It provides day and night, high-altitude (70,000 feet, 21,300 meters), all-weather intelligence gathering.

Lockheed Corporation originally proposed it in 1953, it was approved in 1954, and its first test flight was in 1955.



The U-2 is one of a handful of aircraft types to have served the USAF for over 50 years [...]. The newest models (TR-1, U-2R, U-2S) entered service in the 1980s, and the latest model, the U-2S, had a technical upgrade in 2012.

Lockheed U-2

ETA: There's no information that any U-2 has ever been armed...

No, but the YF-12 was.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_YF-12

[somerset]

Some of you might remember Francis Gary Powers & his “weather plane” from 1960. Blaming your spying on the weather is nothing new.

Something I’m surprised about with the Chinese balloon is that there was no self destruct mechanism. It should have blown itself up when it sensed a rapid descent. Heck, even the Japanese Fu-Go balloons of WW2 had a self destruct device.

Yes, certainly remember that. When the problem of shooting down a balloon at 66,000 feet altitude was discussed, I wondered how high the U-2 flew. It flies at 70,000 feet, and a new version is still in service. So shooting down a balloon at 66,000 feet should not be a problem for the USAF. From the Wikipedia article on the Lockheed U-2...

The Lockheed U-2, nicknamed "Dragon Lady", is an American single-jet engine, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft operated by the United States Air Force (USAF) and previously flown by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). It provides day and night, high-altitude (70,000 feet, 21,300 meters), all-weather intelligence gathering.

Lockheed Corporation originally proposed it in 1953, it was approved in 1954, and its first test flight was in 1955.



The U-2 is one of a handful of aircraft types to have served the USAF for over 50 years [...]. The newest models (TR-1, U-2R, U-2S) entered service in the 1980s, and the latest model, the U-2S, had a technical upgrade in 2012.

Lockheed U-2

ETA: There's no information that any U-2 has ever been armed...

Off Topic

For anyone interested in the story of the U2 development, along with the SR-71, F-117 and other goodies that came out of the Skunkworks group at Lockheed, I recommend this book:

[somerset]

A TikTok I saw yesterday claimed that all the warheads on the nukes at (not Minot but others) in the north were replaced over the last four years and that’s what the balloon is checking out. You may laugh.

Pretty sure China has spy satellites like us. Why are they using weather balloons to conduct convert surveillance?

And it is winter. Not going to see much with the snow anyway.

Here's a pretty good article that discusses possible reasons why the balloon ended up over the US:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02 ... c-balloon/

So the Chinese launched this balloon to spy directly on the United States?

Probably not. The Chinese would have known that sending a clearly observable balloon into the US heartland would be a provocative action, and they are unlikely to have done so on purpose.

The most likely scenario, Antonio believes, is that the termination mechanism, which is used to bring down a balloon at the end of its desired flight time, failed. Typically a stratospheric balloon will have one or more backup termination mechanisms, but a technical problem would explain why a balloon launched in China days or weeks ago could have eventually drifted into the United States. (The Chinese government may not want to admit this technical failure publicly.) The prevailing currents in the stratosphere would appear to support this theory of a drifting balloon the Chinese government had lost control of.

The time to fly such a balloon, for spying purposes, would be during the summer months, Antonio said. That's because during the winter the winds throughout the stratosphere are much more uniform in the Northern Hemisphere. This means that raising and lowering the balloon would provide very little steering capability. "Controlled stratospheric flight is a thing, but it's not something you can really do over the United States at this time of year," Antonio said.


If this were a spy balloon, what is there to look at in Montana?

There are some Air Force facilities with nuclear capabilities in the state, but there is no information to be gleaned by this balloon that has not already been collected by satellites. US military officials do not believe there is any strategic advantage for China to make observations with a balloon. This lends more credence to the notion that it has gone off course, perhaps due to the failed termination system.

[raison de arizona]

[neonzx]

[RTH10260]

Republicans are blaming Biden for letting a suspected Chinese spy balloon cross into the US. It happened 3 times during the Trump administration, officials say.

Lloyd Lee
Feb 5, 2023, 5:29 AM



The dayslong spectacle saw many Republicans criticize the Biden administration for what they viewed as a slow response to the foreign object, while some conservative leaders and pundits took the opportunity to pick at confidence under the Biden administration in general as they claimed no other leader such as Donald Trump would have let a Chinese spy balloon fly over the US.

"Would Trump have let China fly a spy balloon over our country?" Rep. Jim Jordan wrote on Twitter. "Would Reagan? JFK? Truman? No, no, and no."

A balloon US officials are calling a Chinese surveillance tool spent days flying over the continental United States before it was shot down by an F-22 fighter jet on Saturday.

Pentagon leaders advised President Joe Biden against immediately shooting the flying orb out of the sky due to safety concerns for civilians as the high-altitude object was large enough to create a large debris field, a senior defense official who spoke on background told reporters Thursday.

The dayslong spectacle saw many Republicans criticize the Biden administration for what they viewed as a slow response to the foreign object, while some conservative leaders and pundits took the opportunity to pick at confidence under the Biden administration in general as they claimed no other leader such as Donald Trump would have let a Chinese spy balloon fly over the US.

"Would Trump have let China fly a spy balloon over our country?" Rep. Jim Jordan wrote on Twitter. "Would Reagan? JFK? Truman? No, no, and no."

But senior Pentagon officials said on Saturday that suspected Chinese surveillance balloons crossed into the US at least three times during the Trump administration and once earlier in the Biden administration, the Associated Press reported.

The senior defense official who spoke on background also said "a balloon of this nature" crossed over the continental US before the Biden administration but declined to specify when.

"It's happened a few times in recent years to include before this administration. But beyond that, I'm not going to go into the details," the official said.

It's also unclear if balloons spotted during the Trump administration were shot down. A Pentagon spokesperson did not respond to a request for comment.




https://www.businessinsider.com/conserv ... ump-2023-2

[New Turtle]

I'm sure there are several orgs in North America that know more about this craft than they are making public. And if it had nefarious purposes, it wouldn't be allowed to cross over land, its existence would not be made public.

[Slim Cognito]

That SNL open is the funniest thing I've seen since Weekend Update interviewed the iceberg that sunk the Titanic.

[raison de arizona]

China condemns US ‘attack’ on surveillance balloon as ‘overreaction’

China condemned the U.S. military’s decision on Saturday to shoot down a suspected Chinese surveillance balloon that flew over the U.S. last week.

“China strongly disapproves of and protests against the U.S. attack on a civilian unmanned airship by force,” the Chinese Foreign Ministry said in a statement on Sunday morning, per the South China Morning Post.

“The U.S.’s use of force is a clear overreaction and a serious violation of international practice,” the ministry added, noting that Beijing reserves the right to make “further responses that are necessary.”

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... rreaction/

[RTH10260]

Hot air

US downs Chinese balloon, drawing a threat from China

ZEKE MILLER, MICHAEL BALSAMO, COLLEEN LONG, AAMER MADHANI and LOLITA C. BALDOR
Sat, February 4, 2023 at 10:47 AM GMT+1

WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. military on Saturday shot down a suspected Chinese spy balloon off the Carolina coast after it traversed sensitive military sites across North America. China insisted the flyover was an accident involving a civilian aircraft and threatened repercussions.

President Joe Biden issued the order but had wanted the balloon downed even earlier, on Wednesday. He was advised that the best time for the operation would be when it was over water, U.S. officials said. Military officials determined that bringing it down over land from an altitude of 60,000 feet would pose an undue risk to people on the ground.

China responded that it reserved the right to “take further actions” and criticized the U.S. for “an obvious overreaction and a serious violation of international practice.”

In its statement Sunday, China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that “China will resolutely uphold the relevant company’s legitimate rights and interests, and at the same time reserving the right to take further actions in response.” China's Ministry of Defense echoed the statement later in the day, saying it “reserves the right to take necessary measures to deal with similar situations.”



https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-plays- ... 16941.html

[pipistrelle]

Why do they care? It was unmanned and done.

[Volkonski]

Why do they care? It was unmanned and done.

Perhaps China hoped to recover it after it floated around the world.

[neonzx]

Why do they care? It was unmanned and done.

Maybe they are trying to save face? Isn't that a thing in eastern Asian culture?

[somerset]

Why do they care? It was unmanned and done.

Maybe they are trying to save face? Isn't that a thing in eastern Asian culture?

It's not limited to Asian cultures. Just ask the OSG

[keith]

Zaiguoren? I assume you mean waiguoren

Laowei??

Gweilo?

[MN-Skeptic]

Mark Hertling is one person I follow on Twitter. I like what he had to say about the balloon incident. I'll quote the whole thread below the initial tweets -

The @GOP is debating on condemning @potus actions on the China Balloon at the SOTU. If they do condemn, after the gang of eight and then other members it will only show how unserious they are about national security.

Why? A short 1/10

As I said on Friday, as a former Cavalryman I learned that unless there is an immediate threat, a smart person spends time observing, reporting, and analyzing.

While the immediate reaction may be "shoot it down," experts may provide a more prudent approach.

That happened. 2/

We'll learn @NORADCommand tracked across the Bering Sea, Aleutians, Alaska & then Canada.

Based on experience, there was constant tracking, as has been reported, and immediate risk mitigation (jamming, spoofing, following).

That's what the military does. 3/

POTUS initial reaction was "shoot it down." Appropriate, but in learning more he adjusted his mission orders to "get the info, and when it's safe engage."

Because likely part of that brief was also "boss, we're getting all kinds of info off this thing." 4/

The balloon was shadowed -I'm sure- by various US & Canadian platforms, collecting data and gaining valuable info.

Using Open Skies protocol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Open_Skies

When it was in clear airspace, in coordination with Air Force, Navy, NASA, FAA, HLS &others, it was engaged. 5/

As reported by @jaketapperNOT & @NatashaBertrand the debris field is 1500 x 1500 meters, in less than 50 feet of water.

The military adjusted their initial analysis based on what they learned from @NASA and their experience with Challenger and Columbia.6/

The @USNavy and USNS has several recovery ships in the area now, they've already recovered surface floaters, and they're mapping the ocean floor.

It's what they do so well in recovery opns.

Likely some devices have already been shipped to the @FBI 7/

The Chinese are slowly admitting this wasn't a weather balloon. It's hard not to when there's a similar one floating in S. America.

It's hard for them to explain. It would have been different if the US had immediately shot it down in Alaska. 8/

And now we know more about what they are doing, given we did the right thing at the right time and the right place.

After observing, reporting, assessing, given there was little risk. 9/

Members of Congress will likely get more information than I provided here, but some will still be ranting and some may even accuse @Potus of doing the wrong thing.

All I can say is "I vehemently disagree." 10/10