King Charles III and Queen Consort Camilla (Scorpio/Cancer) + Queen Elizabeth II

[Sam the Centipede]

Picking up on Gregg's history (I know little of this): I have read that the Tudors (Henry VII to Elizabeth I, 1485-1603, thanks Wikipedia) is portrayed by its boosters as flamboyant and opulent, remember those gorgeous bejeweled portraits of Henry VIII, and Elizabeth? But the reality was a monarchy with high ambitions but few resources, rulers who struggled to raise tax revenues and were tardy and unreliable settlers of debts. Tudor England had little power or prestige compared with Spain, France, etc.

Gregg enjoyed Becket, but I was captivated by A Man For All Seasons the film adaptation of Robert Bolt's stage play about Thomas More and his plight when Henry VIII started his disposable queen business. Paul Schofield was awesome in it, along with many well-established actors of state and screen. Sorry Charlton Heston fans, but that remake is a poor imitation, don't watch it.

The film has a serenity and simplicity of form (probably due to its origin on the stage) which is a pleasant contrast to frenetic films of today. Recommended for a winter evening in.

[keith]

Off Topic

Channel 19, WXIX, to this day to me means Larry Smith puppets, live commercials from "Riverside Ford, a block and Bridge from Downtown Cincinnati" and the movies Becket and The Blue Max. The theme music for all WXIX movies was the intro to George Harrison's "What Is My Life.

Oh, the joys of Early UHF in the late 60s early 70s!

Off Topic

In Tucson it was Channel 11, KZAZ. They had Ingmar Bergman movies (semi nudity!), cartoons, Jai Alai, and Bull Fights!

[Volkonski]

[much ado]

And Trump isn't there.

So sad!

[Sam the Centipede]

And Trump isn't there.

So sad!

As the Brits keep tweeting in tongue-in-cheek responses to various absurdities …
… it's what she would have wanted

[miss meh]

Sigh, I wish the late great Sharon K. Penman was still around, she loved answering reader's questions on FB and Goodreads.

I totally did not know that she had died! "The Sunne in Splendour" is my favorite book of all time.

[Kendra]

Sigh, I wish the late great Sharon K. Penman was still around, she loved answering reader's questions on FB and Goodreads.

I totally did not know that she had died! "The Sunne in Splendour" is my favorite book of all time.

One of my favorites too, along with her Welsh Trilogy. She was such a class act, and always happy to interact with readers. She was like a kid in a candy store when they found Richard III's body

I did get to see/meet her in person during a book signing (Lionheart I think) a few years ago, I wasn't the only one there who was surprised at how Outremer was really pronounce vs what I had in my head. Class act, all the way and such a lovely lady.

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[Kriselda Gray]

I have a few questions for those knowledgeable in Royal matters. I've tried searching, but got too many conflicting answers, so...

• I've read that Catherine will not be entitled to be called "Princess Catherine" because she's a commoner, but instead will properly be titled "Catherine, Princess of Wales." Is this correct?
• Will the same hold true for Camilla, as she was also a commoner (IIUC) and is a divorcee? Will she be "Camilla, the Queen Consort" rather than "Queen Camilla"?
• Is it expected that the media and the general public will stick with the traditional titling or is it more likely they'll end up using the shorter "Princess Catherine" and "Queen Camilla" instead?
• If Harry and Meghan are non-working royals who - FWIU - have given up their titles,why are they still referred to as "The Sussexes"?
• I've also read that Beatrice is also a non-working royal. What did she do to earn that? Is it another unpopular marriage?

Thanks much for any knowledge you care to share!

[Chilidog]

I found the ceremonial vigil by the grandchildren to be incrediblly moving

[Sam the Centipede]

I have a few questions for those knowledgeable in Royal matters. I've tried searching, but got too many conflicting answers, so...

• I've read that Catherine will not be entitled to be called "Princess Catherine" because she's a commoner, but instead will properly be titled "Catherine, Princess of Wales." Is this correct?
• Will the same hold true for Camilla, as she was also a commoner (IIUC) and is a divorcee? Will she be "Camilla, the Queen Consort" rather than "Queen Camilla"?
• Is it expected that the media and the general public will stick with the traditional titling or is it more likely they'll end up using the shorter "Princess Catherine" and "Queen Camilla" instead?
• If Harry and Meghan are non-working royals who - FWIU - have given up their titles,why are they still referred to as "The Sussexes"?
• I've also read that Beatrice is also a non-working royal. What did she do to earn that? Is it another unpopular marriage?

Thanks much for any knowledge you care to share!

On common labeling versus formal titles: QE II's mother, the wife of King George VI was (I believe, before my time) known simply as Queen Elizabeth or "the queen" when she was queen consort, just as the wife of King George V was known as Queen Mary (or "the queen"). Queen consorts do not, of course, have a regnal number, but the recently deceased queen was never a queen consort, she went from princess to queen regnant (a monarch in her own right).

After George VI's death (i.e. during QE II's reign), the older Elizabeth appeared to be formally known as Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother, but in the newspapers and news broadcasts she was generally referred to as "the Queen Mother". Of course, with both mother and daughter named Elizabeth, she couldn't have been referred to as Queen Elizabeth without disambiguation. That doesn't apply with Camilla, so I expect she will be known as "Queen Camilla" or, more simply "the queen". She probably won't be called (unadorned) Camilla by the press because that's going to annoy enthusiasts for the monarchy.

Harry and Meghan haven't given up their titles, they are still Duke and Duchess of Sussex, and Harry is still a prince; I don't know if Meghan has other titles. What they have relinquished (and Andrew has had confiscated) is the right to use the honorific HRH (his/her royal highness). In the Ruritanian world of royalty, these pandering geegaws and verbal furbelows are valued by some of the parasites. I read that Andrew wanted to wear a full admiral's uniform for these events, as he would have been made one automatically (as a royal prince) on reaching 60 years old, except that was cancelled due to his disgraceful behavior and his ejection from most ceremonial roles. Why would a grown man care about wearing a uniform he has not earned?

Catherine will probably be known as the Princess of Wales and Princess Catherine; whether they will shorten it to Princess Kate or even Kate I dunno. (Does she use "Kate" herself? Or did the press just use the short form?)

Princess Beatrice as a non-working royal: as with Harry and Meghan, working or not working is not directly related to titles, which are (I think) in the gift of the sovereign. Charles (and others?) wanted to reduce the number of hangers-on, so there is now a core group of royal ribbon-cutters, speech-makers, medal-awarders, etc.

I don't know what Beatrice and Eugenie do day to day to earn a crust or fill the empty hours. Perhaps they open the occasional fete or supermarket? Perhaps not, as they probably wouldn't be able to charge a decent fee.

Princess Anne (Charles's sister) declined "prince" titles for her children. I guess she felt these were an obstacle to a sane and healthy upbringing. I guess the new king could offer them titles if they want them.

Any or all of this might be wrong, it's based on what I have read over the years in The Guardian and UK news bwebsites and broadcasts!

[p0rtia]

I found the ceremonial vigil by the grandchildren to be incrediblly moving

Ditto.

I stumbled upon it by pure accident, and was spellbound.

Felt glad the Andrew daughters and younger kids had a chance to participate.

[Chilidog]

I'm sure they practiced it, becsuse they pulled it off perfectly. The ritual with the Seargent at Arms (???) Banging on the floor with his sword was interesting. I had to wonder though, if he had a special, reinforced, ceremonial sword scabbard for that, as he was banging it pretty hard.

[Kriselda Gray]

Thank you very much, Sam, that was QUITE helpful!!

As far as the Catherine/Kate naming, I recall she has said she wants to be known as Catherine, but it seems the press has ignored her wishes on this.

Thanks again!

~K

[Lansdowne]

BBC220918Wm1.jpg (286.64 KiB) Viewed 1728 times

I don't think these people filing past the Queen's coffin saw who just came in by the side entrance...

BBC220918Wm2.jpg (235.15 KiB) Viewed 1728 times

[Mr brolin]

I have a few questions for those knowledgeable in Royal matters. I've tried searching, but got too many conflicting answers, so...

• I've read that Catherine will not be entitled to be called "Princess Catherine" because she's a commoner, but instead will properly be titled "Catherine, Princess of Wales." Is this correct?
• Will the same hold true for Camilla, as she was also a commoner (IIUC) and is a divorcee? Will she be "Camilla, the Queen Consort" rather than "Queen Camilla"?
• Is it expected that the media and the general public will stick with the traditional titling or is it more likely they'll end up using the shorter "Princess Catherine" and "Queen Camilla" instead?
• If Harry and Meghan are non-working royals who - FWIU - have given up their titles,why are they still referred to as "The Sussexes"?
• I've also read that Beatrice is also a non-working royal. What did she do to earn that? Is it another unpopular marriage?

Thanks much for any knowledge you care to share!

There is the "Official" nomenclature and the "Popular" naming driven by how people decide to use it an how the tabloids use it......

Catherine will be officially Catherine, Princess of Wales, when the day arrrive she will be Catherine, Queen Consort. In the real world, it'll end up, by popular usage Princess Kate/Catherine then Queen Catherine, unlikely to ever be shortened to Queen Kate...sounds a tad rapper ...
(Same as the previous bolter, Diana, who was never officially or legally Princess Diana, she was Diana, Princess of Wales)

Same for Camilla, officially Camilla, Queen Consort, in real usage, it'll be Queen Camilla

Meghan was not, is not and never will be Princess of Anything or Anywhere, she is the Duchess of Sussex so long as she remains married to Harry. However her two children are now technically entitled to the title of Prince and Princess, in their own right, as grandchildren of the Monarch. I would expect Charles to confirm, usually by Letters Patent, of this title in due time.

Unless they, at a later stage in their lives decide to become working royals, they will not be entitled to be called HRH Prince xxxxx, HRH Princess xxxx. This is why H+M are not entitled to the HRH, no workee, no tickee.

Beatrice, same rationale, direct grandchild of the monarch (QE II), courtesy title of Princess, she does do quite a lot of charity work, Royal patron for varies worthy causes and the like so, IIRC, the court circular still uses HRH as she is in effect a working royal. She also had kept her nose clean, worked hard, not stabbed any relations in the back which helps.

[much ado]

I found the ceremonial vigil by the grandchildren to be incrediblly moving

It caused me to look up this article, which gives some background information on all the grandchildren.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/socie ... dchildren/

[Azastan]

It caused me to look up this article, which gives some background information on all the grandchildren.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/socie ... dchildren/

Even that article doesn't get the terminology correct!

Diana, again, was NOT 'Princess' Diana. She was Diana, Princess of Wales.

LOL...

[Lansdowne]

It caused me to look up this article, which gives some background information on all the grandchildren.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/socie ... dchildren/

Even that article doesn't get the terminology correct!

Diana, again, was NOT 'Princess' Diana. She was Diana, Princess of Wales.

LOL...

Wikipedia generally has a 'Styles' section in Royal articles to deal with the several changes in title over the course of these lives:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Pr ... s_and_arms
explains that while she was married to Charles her title was the simple "Princess of Wales", but on divorce the title changed - which would have allowed a second wife to have the substantive title. Of course, Camilla never used the title "Princess of Wales" but that is what she was nevertheless.

But of course, there is no mandate on the press, even in the UK, to use the official titles. No one will be sent to the Tower for referring to "Princess Diana" or "Queen Camilla" or "William and Kate".

[Gregg]

Thank you very much, Sam, that was QUITE helpful!!

As far as the Catherine/Kate naming, I recall she has said she wants to be known as Catherine, but it seems the press has ignored her wishes on this.

Thanks again!

~K

HRH Katherine, Princess of Wales. She married the title, it's her husband's.

HRH Princess Eugenie of York, She inherited the Princess, before her Christian name by right as the child or grandchild of the Monarch, she still gets to use the HRH which is granted by the Crown but is usually, (see her dad) for life.

HRH Prince Harry the Duke of Sussex. HRH because it was granted, Prince because grandson of the Monarch, Duke of Sussix because created by the Queen and one a Royal or even non royal is the "Duke or Earl or Viscount or Baron" of something, that something becomes their name in public. Prince Harry is "The Duke of Sussex" and calling him Prince Harry is actually being overly familiar with him, if he wasn't famous outside Britain as Prince Harry only a friend would call him that in person or in correspondence.

If you marry a Prince you put Princess before your name and Of Whatever after, you are a Princess Consort.

If you are born a Princess the Princess goes before your name and after your name is your father's honorific even if you are a Princess because your mother was the Daughter of the Sovereign (and Ann put all that aside for her children as did Edward).

If you marry a Princess, you wife is a Princess and you are whatever you were the day before. Sorry.

And finally, if you are born the child or grandchild of the Sovereign, you are entitled to be a Prince or Princess. If you are a close member of the Royal Family or marry one (most of the time, see Duchess of Windsor) you are entitled to HRH but only as the gift of the Sovereign.

This is all a simplified general guideline the formal rules in fact are a book, and a book that has real tiny print and no pictures. To Americans it seems like a lot of minutia but the average British Subject on the street knows this more than the average American on the street knows the Bill of Rights.

[Lansdowne]

HRH Katherine, Princess of Wales. She married the title, it's her husband's.

Don't go by page titles on Wikipedia. Go by what the page tells you.

She is HRH The Princess of Wales. Catherine is who she is, but not part of the title.
The principles are as you say, a wife loses her name and adopts the husband's princely title. As in "Princess Michael of Kent": the equivalent in U.S. nobility being I suppose "Mrs. John F. Kennedy" which I am sure was the formal usage at that time.

[Gregg]

Lesson 2

Harry and Meghan's oldest child is not only entitled to be Prince Archie, upon the death of his Father he is also The Second Duke of Sussex.
Beatrice will not become Duchess of York on Andrew's death because Dukedoms only pass to male children. Although she is now a Senior Royal, as Fourth in Line of the heirs over the age of 21 she becomes a Councilor of State, a position that dates back to the will of Henry VIII. She is ninth in line overall.

The Princess Royal was never created with any other title, therefore her oldest son, Peter Phillips will not get one when she dies. Sucks to be him. Hopefully the laws about female children being in line in the future will bleed over into them also getting a hereditary title they can pass down to their children.

Andrew and Edward only have hereditary titles because the Queen created them, Andrew Duke or York and Edward, Earl Essex. It was expected that King Charles would create Edward "Duke of Edenborough", his late father's title, which Charles inherited when Prince Phillip died, but after Philip Died newspapers started hinting that maybe Charles would keep the title for himself.

He has quite a collection, including

King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Duke of Rothesay
Earl of Carrick
Baron of Renfrew
Lord of the Isles
Prince and Great Steward of Scotland
Earl of Chester
Duke of Edinburg
Earl of Merioneth
Baron Greenwich
and master of all he surveys most of the time...


Also, there are a lot of titles that will die without anyone to pass them along to and those revert to the King, so if Andrew dies first he will have the choice to become Duke of York, the current Duke of Kent, Queen Elizabeth's cousin, is old enough to remember a young Keith Richards so that may come back soon and a few others.

[Ben-Prime]

I don't think these people filing past the Queen's coffin saw who just came in by the side entrance...

BBC220918Wm2.jpg

That's our Ambassador with POTUS and FLOTUS. She's really great, and that is an almost insultingly unflattering shot with regards to her posture and expression.

[Chilidog]

It looks like an emotional expression of sadness and grief, to me.

It has to be quite overwhelming to look down at the casket. Especially considering that she undoubtedly had met her in person.

[Kriselda Gray]

Thank you Mr Brolin anmd Gregg! So much interesting info....

[chancery]

Off Topic

An anecdote concerning royal titles.

When my father was a young man, he was a member of a team of physicians called in to treat the Duchess of Windsor during a visit to the United States. Her husband made a pest of himself by insisting that everyone address and refer to his wife as Her Royal Highness.