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School related violence

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bob
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Re: School related violence

#176

Post by bob »

chancery wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:25 pmBut I don’t see their flight as particularly probative of guilt of the crimes charged.
Regardless of whether you do, courts do.

Evidence of flight is routinely admitted as evidence of consciousness of guilt. E.g., California's jury instruction on the topic.
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Re: School related violence

#177

Post by Maybenaut »

chancery wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:25 pm
bob wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:25 pm Evidence of consciousness of guilt is routinely admitted. Even (especially?) acts that could be construed in an innocent (or at least rational) manner.
Meh. Based on what we know and surmise, I want to see these parents punished as much as anyone here.

But I don’t see their flight as particularly probative of guilt of the crimes charged. It's not comparable to skedaddling red-handed from the scene of a crime like burglary or murder.
Foggy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:16 pm Yeah, let's put on the facts of their flight and subsequent arrest. I was never a prosecutor, but I will take the side which argues that flight is evidence of guilt, and you can take the side which argues that they fled in fear of their lives ... from ... oh, I don't know, let's see here ...

BLM? Antifa? The FBI? The Deep State? The KGB? The Space Force? The PTA? :think: :confuzzled:

Who did they honestly think was planning to kill them? I don't get it. :shrug:
The ham-handed flight of these parents from their home, days after the crime, strikes me as an irrational but very human reaction to intense media attention, a storm of obloquy, and fear of prosecution, which, I respectfully maintain, is not necessarily consciousness of guilt. And the likelihood of unfair prejudice seems strong. A ruling that prejudice outweighs probative value strikes me as an easy call.

IANACrL. Interested to hear Maybenaut's take. And, of course, I reserve the right to change my mind. :boxing:
I think it’s admissible, and I doubt any court would find it unduly prejudicial.

ETA: The defense can always counter the government’s consciousness of guilt argument with, hey it was the media attention, we were freaked out coz our kid just killed someone, or whatever. I see this sort of thing in criminal trials all the time, so I’d be surprised if the judge kept it out.
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Re: School related violence

#178

Post by chancery »

Your knowledge of this stuff is much better than mine, which consists of dim memories of an evidence course & the odd discussion stumbled on while looking for something else. Although I did work on a nonjury proxy contest matter in which we quoted Proverbs 28.1 ("The wicked flee when no man pursueth") to good effect in a discussion of opposing party's conduct. :thumbsup:

But you're not really addressing my point, which is that the probative value of evidence of flight can be outweighed by unfair prejudice. And it strikes me as likely that a judge would be receptive to such an argument on these facts. However, my impression on that score is untainted by any familiarity with case law or practice on the evaluation of evidence of flight for unfair prejudice.

Edit:
Maybenaut wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:52 pm
I think it’s admissible, and I doubt any court would find it unduly prejudicial.
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Re: School related violence

#179

Post by Dave from down under »

From:

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2021-12- ... /100675352

Charging parents is uncommon, but not unprecedented

A 2019 assessment by the US Department of Homeland Security found that 76 per cent of school attacks that involved a firearm used guns from the home of a parent or close relative.

In about half of these cases, the firearms were easily accessible.

However, laws aimed at restricting gun access are not always enforced and vary in strength, according to some experts.

"Our laws haven't really adapted to the reality of school shootings, and the closest we have are these child access prevention laws," Kris Brown, president of the Brady gun control advocacy group, said.

Charging the parents with involuntary manslaughter is not unheard of in the state of Michigan.

In 2000, a Flint-area man pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter after a 6-year-old boy who was living with him found a gun in a shoebox and killed a classmate.

There have also been similar charges in other parts of the US.

In 2020, the mother of an Indiana teen was placed on probation for failing to remove guns from her home after her mentally ill son threatened to kill students.

He fired shots inside his school in 2018. No one was injured but the boy killed himself.

In Washington state, the father of a boy who killed four students at a high school in 2014 was convicted of illegally possessing firearms. He was not charged for the shooting, although one of his guns was used.
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Re: School related violence

#180

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Re: School related violence

#181

Post by chancery »

Maybenaut wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:52 pm
ETA: The defense can always counter the government’s consciousness of guilt argument with, hey it was the media attention, we were freaked out coz our kid just killed someone, or whatever. I see this sort of thing in criminal trials all the time, so I’d be surprised if the judge kept it out.
Need a witness though, which I expect could sometimes be hard without the defendant taking the stand.
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Re: School related violence

#182

Post by LM K »

I'm somewhat surprised by the mugshot. The parents aren't sad. They're angry. Mom is a cobra waiting to lash out. She's scarry.
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Re: School related violence

#183

Post by roadscholar »

Foggy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:20 am If you flea from justice, it makes any later defense look crumbley. :whistle:
:notworthy1: :notworthy1: :notworthy1:

And thanks go out to Chancery for “storm of obloquy.” :lovestruck:
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Re: School related violence

#184

Post by pipistrelle »

LM K wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:07 pm I'm somewhat surprised by the mugshot. The parents aren't sad. They're angry. Mom is a cobra waiting to lash out. She's scarry.
Cobras have better parenting skills.

Not surprised by the mugshots.

Interesting: The mother kept her face and down away from photographers during the perp walk. Dad walked head up.
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Re: School related violence

#185

Post by Lani »

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Re: School related violence

#186

Post by Maybenaut »

chancery wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:03 pm
Maybenaut wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:52 pm
ETA: The defense can always counter the government’s consciousness of guilt argument with, hey it was the media attention, we were freaked out coz our kid just killed someone, or whatever. I see this sort of thing in criminal trials all the time, so I’d be surprised if the judge kept it out.
Need a witness though, which I expect could sometimes be hard without the defendant taking the stand.
Not necessarily. Consciousness of guilt is an inference that the state would want the jury to draw from the fact that they ran. They don’t have to prove what was in the defendants’ heads. But neither does the defense. The defense could, through other witnesses, counter that with evidence about the media attention. And the government is going to have to put on evidence of the killings if it hopes to get a conviction.

Then the defense could argue to the jury in closing that it shouldn’t draw the consciousness of guilt inference when there are other inferences it could draw from the evidence. “This is every parent’s worst nightmare. Their son had just killed four people and wounded seven others. Their world as they knew it was crumbling around them. They were being hounded by the media. Etc., etc.”

I’m not saying it would necessarily carry the day, only that the defendants don’t need to get on the stand to counter consciousness of guilt evidence.
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Re: School related violence

#187

Post by filly »

Unless you get a jury of Wolverine Watchmen I seriously doubt there will be a jury empathetic to the shooter or his parents.
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Re: School related violence

#188

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James Crumbley's ex says he left them strapped for cash, calls Jennifer a 'monster'

SOUTHFIELD, Mich. (WXYZ) — Michelle Cobb holds nothing back when describing James Crumbley, her ex-boyfriend and the father of her 18-year-old son.

"He's a piece of (expletive). He really is," Cobb told 7 Action News Friday.

Cobb said Crumbley left their son and a daughter he had with another woman in Florida when he moved out of state with Jennifer Crumbley.



Cobb said the issues were not the relationships between the adults because she and the mother of Crumbley's now 24-year-old daughter chose to have a friendship for the sake of the children.

But Cobb said Jimmy (James) and Jennifer always looked for ways to criticize and complain about her because they hated that he had to pay child support for his son, Eli.

"I cried the moment he turned 18 because, I thought, all of this hell is over as far as dealing with my son's father," Cobb said.


She said it was Jennifer Crumbley who was running the show and that she made it difficult for Eli to get closer to his dad and half-brother Ethan.

"Jennifer was a monster," Cobb said. "She could do no wrong and she was right about everything. I mean, this is exactly the kind of attitude she has. Like, she, literally, thought she was better than everyone."

*****

Cobb said she wouldn't be surprised if James and Jennifer purchased the semi-automatic handgun with the intent that it would belong to their tenth grader.

"They pretty much gave him whatever he wanted," she said, adding, "Why would you let a 15-year-old have access, especially knowing that just a few days prior that he was having problems at school?"


Cobb said while the Crumbleys were giving Ethan whatever Ethan wanted, it was a hopeless struggle to get James to pay $67 a week in child support when he was earning a six-figure income.

"My son is six-foot-three and 240 pounds. Do you know how much $67 a week pays? And he wears a size 17 shoe," she said.

Cobb said Jennifer Crumbley made it unbearable for her son to spend time with his dad and Ethan, but she's thankful her son returned to Florida just before the pandemic.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/oxford-school ... -a-monster
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Re: School related violence

#189

Post by Maybenaut »

filly wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:47 am Unless you get a jury of Wolverine Watchmen I seriously doubt there will be a jury empathetic to the shooter or his parents.
I agree. When I first heard about the charges I thought there was at least a reasonable chance for the parents to plead the involuntary manslaughter down to something less. Not any longer.
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Re: School related violence

#190

Post by W. Kevin Vicklund »

Maybenaut wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:00 am
filly wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:47 am Unless you get a jury of Wolverine Watchmen I seriously doubt there will be a jury empathetic to the shooter or his parents.
I agree. When I first heard about the charges I thought there was at least a reasonable chance for the parents to plead the involuntary manslaughter down to something less. Not any longer.
And that, I think, is the most important aspect of their choice to go on the lam. Well, and the massive inflation of their bond.
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Re: School related violence

#191

Post by Volkonski »

Detroit-Based Artist Was Crumbleys' Connection To Building Where They Were Found Hiding

https://deadlinedetroit.com/articles/29 ... und_hiding
James and Jennifer Crumbley's connection to an east-side commercial building where police say they were found hiding overnight was apparently a Polish-born, Detroit-based artist who'd recently done a mural near their house.

According to The Daily Beast, photos of the arrest showed the couple leaving the studio of Andrzej Sikora, a painter who was featured in an Oxford Leader article last month about his new mural at Red Knapp's Dairy Bar. A photo of Sikora posing alongside it was credited to "Jehn Crumbley," who was a licensed Realtor until 2018 and also worked as a marketing director. The photo credit has since disappeared.

The parents of Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley were in a room inside 1111 Bellevue on Detroit's east side early Saturday and taken into custody after an approximately half-day manhunt involving multiple law enforcement agencies, Detroit Police Chief James White said during a 4 a.m. news conference.

Of discovering the parents 40 miles from Oxford at a commercial building with artist studios and a coffee shop, White said, "I'm surprised that they're here."
“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: School related violence

#192

Post by Volkonski »

Hopkins teacher suspended for 'violent, detailed' comments about Oxford shooting

https://wwmt.com/news/local/hopkins-tea ... d-shooting
HOPKINS, Mich. — An Allegan County teacher is suspended from Hopkins High School while Michigan State Police investigated violent, and detailed comments that students said he made in class. Hopkins High School principal Ken Szczepanski said the comments referenced physical violence and weapons on the day after the deadly shootings at Oxford High School.

“The things that he said, how he would’ve committed the act differently with detail, is extremely scary,” said a parent who did not reveal her identity in fear of retaliation.

The parent said her child heard the teacher make the comments in class on Wednesday.

That he would’ve pulled a smoke detector, so that he could create a distraction, in order to carry out his hitlist and kill the people that he would need to,” said the parent. “It was gut-wrenching devastation that a grown adult would mentally harm our children this way.”
“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: School related violence

#193

Post by LM K »

Maybenaut wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:54 pm
Slim Cognito wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:22 pm I wonder how long the punk ass has been planning this. Has it been in the works for a while or was he inspired by that other punk ass in Wisconsin who was turned into a folk hero for murdering two and naming a third?
Or was he suffering from a severe mental disease or defect and as a result unable to understand the wrongfulness of his conduct, or unable to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law?

A successful insanity plea will not result in his immediate release. He’d be confined to a mental health facility to undergo treatment and wouldn’t be released until it’s determined that he’s no longer a danger to himself or others.

An insanity plea is notoriously difficult to win. It’s one of the few instances that places any burden on the defense, which, as I understand it in Michigan, requires the defense to prove it by a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not). That differs from many jurisdictions (like the one where I practice), which requires the defense to prove it by clear and convincing evidence (we also don’t have that bit about the inability to conform conduct to the requirements of the law).

I predict the defense case is going to involve a bunch of experts testifying about psychosis.

I’m just not ready to pile on yet. I’ve represented people who have committed terrible crimes because voices, or intrusive thoughts, or whatever you want to call it spurred them on. It’s incredibly heartbreaking, and the remorse once they are thinking clearly again is shattering.
I can't pile on either.

While we have limited info about Ethan Crumbley, these words moved me deeply:

“The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”

Ethan was asking for help. His mental state was such that he couldn't keep control of repetitive violent thoughts.

When do severe mental illnesses, such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, begin manifesting themselves? Mid-teens to early 20s.

Those who are mentally ill are less violent than the mentally well, except for those with schizophrenia who have command hallucinations. Most with schizophrenia don't have command hallucinations.

We will learn more about Ethan with time. I could be wrong. But the words “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” say a lot.

Anderson Cooper tries a schizophrenia simulator.

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Re: School related violence

#194

Post by Kriselda Gray »

LM K wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:19 am We will learn more about Ethan with time. I could be wrong. But the words “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” say a lot.
Maybe I'm just getting too cynical in my old age, but while part of me wants to believe that picture was a genuine cry for help, another part wonders if perhaps he drew it as a means of setting up a mental fitness defense. Of course, a kid who thinks it's OK to shop for ammo on Amazon while at school might not be clever enough to come up with that kind of an idea. It'd be interesting to know if there were other red flags regarding serious mental illness prior to the drawing...

ETA: Fascinating video, BTW. Thanks for sharing it!
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Re: School related violence

#195

Post by filly »

Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:52 am
LM K wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:19 am We will learn more about Ethan with time. I could be wrong. But the words “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” say a lot.
Maybe I'm just getting too cynical in my old age, but while part of me wants to believe that picture was a genuine cry for help, another part wonders if perhaps he drew it as a means of setting up a mental fitness defense. Of course, a kid who thinks it's OK to shop for ammo on Amazon while at school might not be clever enough to come up with that kind of an idea. It'd be interesting to know if there were other red flags regarding serious mental illness prior to the drawing...

ETA: Fascinating video, BTW. Thanks for sharing it!
Well, he did scratch out/redact one of his drawings to eliminate the bad stuff. So that tells me he had some consciousness of right and wrong.
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Re: School related violence

#196

Post by sugar magnolia »

filly wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:11 am
Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:52 am
LM K wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:19 am We will learn more about Ethan with time. I could be wrong. But the words “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” say a lot.
Maybe I'm just getting too cynical in my old age, but while part of me wants to believe that picture was a genuine cry for help, another part wonders if perhaps he drew it as a means of setting up a mental fitness defense. Of course, a kid who thinks it's OK to shop for ammo on Amazon while at school might not be clever enough to come up with that kind of an idea. It'd be interesting to know if there were other red flags regarding serious mental illness prior to the drawing...

ETA: Fascinating video, BTW. Thanks for sharing it!
Well, he did scratch out/redact one of his drawings to eliminate the bad stuff. So that tells me he had some consciousness of right and wrong.
I haven't seen anything about him scratching stuff out on the drawing. As a matter of fact, I've only seen mention of the one drawing of the bullet, shooting victim and gun. Do you have a link that references the scratched out one?
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Re: School related violence

#197

Post by Dave from down under »

From:

https://heavy.com/news/jennifer-crumbley-ethan-mom/

On November 30, the morning of the shooting, McDonald said Ethan Crumbley’s teacher found a note on the 15-year-old’s desk that “alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone.” McDonald said the note contained, “A drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words, ‘the thoughts won’t stop, help me.’ In another section of the note was a drawing of a bullet with the following words above that bullet, ‘Blood everywhere.’ Between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding. Below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji. Further down the drawing are the words, ‘My life is useless.’ And to the right of that are the words, ‘The world is dead.'”

McDonald said James and Jennifer Crumbley were “immediately summoned to the school” after the note was found. A school counselor removed Ethan Crumbley from his classroom and brought him to an office with his backpack, McDonald said. He had altered the drawing, scratching out the gun and bloody figure along with some of the words, before the meeting, she said.
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Re: School related violence

#198

Post by Dave from down under »

I’m no psychologist and am probably to much of a cynic..

But his “help me” was an appeal to the gun to help him stop the thoughts (lives) of others… and not a cry for help but fantasy about what he wanted to do.
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Re: School related violence

#199

Post by sugar magnolia »

Dave from down under wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:31 am From:

https://heavy.com/news/jennifer-crumbley-ethan-mom/

On November 30, the morning of the shooting, McDonald said Ethan Crumbley’s teacher found a note on the 15-year-old’s desk that “alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone.” McDonald said the note contained, “A drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words, ‘the thoughts won’t stop, help me.’ In another section of the note was a drawing of a bullet with the following words above that bullet, ‘Blood everywhere.’ Between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding. Below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji. Further down the drawing are the words, ‘My life is useless.’ And to the right of that are the words, ‘The world is dead.'”

McDonald said James and Jennifer Crumbley were “immediately summoned to the school” after the note was found. A school counselor removed Ethan Crumbley from his classroom and brought him to an office with his backpack, McDonald said. He had altered the drawing, scratching out the gun and bloody figure along with some of the words, before the meeting, she said.
Thanks.
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Re: School related violence

#200

Post by tek »

Dave from down under wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:34 am I’m no psychologist and am probably to much of a cynic..

But his “help me” was an appeal to the gun to help him stop the thoughts (lives) of others… and not a cry for help but fantasy about what he wanted to do.
That is an interesting take, and certainly plausible.
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