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School related violence

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Kendra
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Re: School related violence

#151

Post by Kendra »

https://heavy.com/news/jennifer-crumbley-ethan-mom/
Jennifer Crumbley, Ethan Crumbley’s Mother: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
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Kendra
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Re: School related violence

#152

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pipistrelle
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Re: School related violence

#153

Post by pipistrelle »

Held on $500,000 bond each. Whoops.
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bob
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Re: School related violence

#154

Post by bob »

Kendra wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:34 am
pipistrelle wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:54 am Ms. Crumbley has a secretary? The woman who is so woe-is-me middle class? Since the advent of the computer, the only people I know who have admins. are VPs and above, sometimes only C-suite. Was it maybe a company receptionist?
That's the words the defense attorney used.
Sounds like the attorney was imprecise.

She worked at a real estate company (but her license has lapsed).

It is common for a brokerage to have a receptionist. It is also common for a brokerage to have a paperwork specialist who assists all the agents.
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Re: School related violence

#155

Post by Foggy »

I don't think it's common for a real estate agent whose license expired in 2018 to be working as a real estate agent, but I don't know much about Michigan. :shrug:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Kendra
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Re: School related violence

#156

Post by Kendra »

I researched bits of arraignment. I believe her attorney said personal secretary, which doesn't make sense for a real estate agent with an expired license :shrug:
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Re: School related violence

#157

Post by bob »

Foggy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:41 pm I don't think it's common for a real estate agent whose license expired in 2018 to be working as a real estate agent, but I don't know much about Michigan. :shrug:
I would not be surprised if her brokerage didn't know her licensed had lapsed. Nor would I be surprised if she worked in a non-agent capacity.

I get that her attorney had conveyed the concept that she had some sort of assistant. I'm not going to get hung up on the attorney's puffery.
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Re: School related violence

#158

Post by sugar magnolia »

bob wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:56 pm
Foggy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:41 pm I don't think it's common for a real estate agent whose license expired in 2018 to be working as a real estate agent, but I don't know much about Michigan. :shrug:
I would not be surprised if her brokerage didn't know her licensed had lapsed. Nor would I be surprised if she worked in a non-agent capacity.

I get that her attorney had conveyed the concept that she had some sort of assistant. I'm not going to get hung up on the attorney's puffery.
I've seen multiple references to "property manager" with a real estate company.
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Re: School related violence

#159

Post by Slim Cognito »

I wonder how long the punk ass has been planning this. Has it been in the works for a while or was he inspired by that other punk ass in Wisconsin who was turned into a folk hero for murdering two and naming a third?
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Re: School related violence

#160

Post by neonzx »

sugar magnolia wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:04 pm I've seen multiple references to "property manager" with a real estate company.
Now makes much more sense. In Florida, one can manage properties but needs to work under someone with a real estate license... imagine it is same in Michigan. It also makes why she'd have an assistant/secretary .
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Re: School related violence

#161

Post by Maybenaut »

Slim Cognito wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:22 pm I wonder how long the punk ass has been planning this. Has it been in the works for a while or was he inspired by that other punk ass in Wisconsin who was turned into a folk hero for murdering two and naming a third?
Or was he suffering from a severe mental disease or defect and as a result unable to understand the wrongfulness of his conduct, or unable to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law?

A successful insanity plea will not result in his immediate release. He’d be confined to a mental health facility to undergo treatment and wouldn’t be released until it’s determined that he’s no longer a danger to himself or others.

An insanity plea is notoriously difficult to win. It’s one of the few instances that places any burden on the defense, which, as I understand it in Michigan, requires the defense to prove it by a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not). That differs from many jurisdictions (like the one where I practice), which requires the defense to prove it by clear and convincing evidence (we also don’t have that bit about the inability to conform conduct to the requirements of the law).

I predict the defense case is going to involve a bunch of experts testifying about psychosis.

I’m just not ready to pile on yet. I’ve represented people who have committed terrible crimes because voices, or intrusive thoughts, or whatever you want to call it spurred them on. It’s incredibly heartbreaking, and the remorse once they are thinking clearly again is shattering.
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Re: School related violence

#162

Post by filly »

I am still curious about someone crying about making ends meet but they:

1. Sent the kid to an International Baccalaureate School before high school;

2. Had money to buy guns;

3. Had money to buy a brand new car;

4. Had $4k in cash in the bank;

5. Had money to hire a criminal defense lawyer who seems to have a substantial practice.


Then again Daddy in arrears for child support for other kid. I bet the Kia will be repossessed unless the gun nuts raise a couple of million for them.
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Re: School related violence

#163

Post by Dave from down under »

Foggy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:20 am If you flea from justice, it makes any later defense look crumbley. :whistle:
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Re: School related violence

#164

Post by Fortinbras »

I am curious as to how they could pull a vanishing act to abandon Ethan to fend for himself.
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Re: School related violence

#165

Post by Dave from down under »

He might be better off without his parents
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Re: School related violence

#166

Post by Kendra »

Per MSNBC, Sheriff is holding a presser in an hour or so.
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Re: School related violence

#167

Post by chancery »

Foggy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:20 am If you flea from justice, it makes any later defense look crumbley. :whistle:
Admissible on the merits of the charge? Would think there's a substantial FRE 403 (and comparable state law) problem. Probative value outweighed by unfair prejudice.
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Re: School related violence

#168

Post by Foggy »

Yeah, let's put on the facts of their flight and subsequent arrest. I was never a prosecutor, but I will take the side which argues that flight is evidence of guilt, and you can take the side which argues that they fled in fear of their lives ... from ... oh, I don't know, let's see here ...

BLM? Antifa? The FBI? The Deep State? The KGB? The Space Force? The PTA? :think: :confuzzled:

Who did they honestly think was planning to kill them? I don't get it. :shrug:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Re: School related violence

#169

Post by bob »

chancery wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:00 pm
Foggy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:20 am If you flea from justice, it makes any later defense look crumbley. :whistle:
Admissible on the merits of the charge? Would think there's a substantial FRE 403 (and comparable state law) problem. Probative value outweighed by unfair prejudice.
Evidence of consciousness of guilt is routinely admitted. Even (especially?) acts that could be construed in an innocent (or at least rational) manner.
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Re: School related violence

#170

Post by raison de arizona »

I watched the arraignment. FWIW their attorney said that the mother was the Director of Marketing.

Also, they hid in a vacant building and locked (?) themselves in a room that the officers had to search out.

Oh, and they took the $4k out to “put their financial affairs in order.”
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Re: School related violence

#171

Post by raison de arizona »

Victims
In the Michigan Shooting, What Is the School’s Responsibility?

Oxford High School let Ethan Crumbley back into a classroom despite concerns about his behavior. Now, legal experts are asking why — and whether officials should be held accountable.

First, a teacher found Ethan Crumbley searching online for ammunition. The next day, there was an alarming note on his desk: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”

School officials met with Mr. Crumbley, 15, and his parents, informing them that he needed to begin counseling within 48 hours. After his parents resisted bringing him home, administrators allowed him to stay in school.

Shortly afterward, Mr. Crumbley fatally shot four students, according to the prosecutor in Oakland County, Mich., who laid out that stunning series of events on Friday while announcing involuntary manslaughter charges against the parents.

Now, Oxford High School’s actions are also under a microscope, prompting questions about the school’s responsibility, and whether there could be legal repercussions for administrators. Asked if her office was looking into the conduct of school officials, Karen M. McDonald, the prosecutor, said, “The investigation is ongoing.”
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/04/us/o ... legal.html
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Re: School related violence

#172

Post by Foggy »

Yeah, if'n I'm reading preliminary reports right, this lady wrote a letter thanking TFA for the 2nd Amendment before he was even elected in 2016. So I don't think they have to worry about finances for a while. :whistle:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Re: School related violence

#173

Post by bill_g »

What a great year! Young "Double Tap" got his first real pew-pew.
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Re: School related violence

#174

Post by chancery »

bob wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:25 pm Evidence of consciousness of guilt is routinely admitted. Even (especially?) acts that could be construed in an innocent (or at least rational) manner.
Meh. Based on what we know and surmise, I want to see these parents punished as much as anyone here.

But I don’t see their flight as particularly probative of guilt of the crimes charged. It's not comparable to skedaddling red-handed from the scene of a crime like burglary or murder.
Foggy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:16 pm Yeah, let's put on the facts of their flight and subsequent arrest. I was never a prosecutor, but I will take the side which argues that flight is evidence of guilt, and you can take the side which argues that they fled in fear of their lives ... from ... oh, I don't know, let's see here ...

BLM? Antifa? The FBI? The Deep State? The KGB? The Space Force? The PTA? :think: :confuzzled:

Who did they honestly think was planning to kill them? I don't get it. :shrug:
The ham-handed flight of these parents from their home, days after the crime, strikes me as an irrational but very human reaction to intense media attention, a storm of obloquy, and fear of prosecution, which, I respectfully maintain, is not necessarily consciousness of guilt. And the likelihood of unfair prejudice seems strong. A ruling that prejudice outweighs probative value strikes me as an easy call.

IANACrL. Interested to hear Maybenaut's take. And, of course, I reserve the right to change my mind. :boxing:
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Re: School related violence

#175

Post by bill_g »

The Crumbleys were overheard saying "We simply told our child to aim higher. We didn't mean the head."
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