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Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

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Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#1

Post by Slim Cognito »

McConnell will instruct his caucus to vote not to cover the debts from trump's COVID relief bill, because of course he is.
Mitch McConnell says the GOP will vote for the US to default on its debt

Pelosi and Schumer said they would attach a debt-ceiling suspension to the government-funding bill.
McConnell quickly struck down the idea, saying the GOP would not vote for the legislation.
They effectively dared him to vote for the US to default on its debt, and he met their dare.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... RD?ocid=st

Another case of burning your house to the ground, then throwing rocks at the firefighters.
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#2

Post by Slim Cognito »

Adding: It doesn't say if this was a 50/50 bill or if the GOP could filibuster. Either way, I want Murkowski, Collins and Romney's statements on this.
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#3

Post by noblepa »

I have heard reasonable arguments that the debt ceiling is, in reality, unconstitutional.

The Constitution gives sole responsibility for the federal budget to Congress. Any funds spent must be allocated by Congress.

AFAIK, SCOTUS has ruled that money allocated by Congress MUST be spent. I remember, when Nixon was President, Congress passed a budget that was bigger than he wanted, so he said, in effect, "Okay, I will just tell the agencies to not spend all the money". SCOTUS ruled that he couldn't do that; Congress allocated it, so he MUST spend the money.

So, if revenues fall short of the amount allocated by Congress, they must borrow it. The President is legally bound to follow the wishes of Congress, as expressed in the budget. But, the debt ceiling law would prevent him from borrowing the money to fulfill the projects called for by Congress, which he has no authority to do.

So, the President must spend what Congress tells him to spend. Spending part of it is not an option.

If revenue falls short, he must borrow the money.

These are his Constitutional duties. Any law that purports to prevent him from carrying out those duties must be unconstitutional.

At least, that's the argument, if I understand it correctly.
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#4

Post by raison de arizona »

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#5

Post by pjhimself »

Prior to 1917, the United States did not have a debt ceiling, with Congress either authorizing specific loans or allowing Treasury to issue certain debt instruments and individual debt issues for specific purposes. Sometimes Congress gave Treasury discretion over what type of debt instrument would be issued.[2]

Between 1788 and 1917 Congress would authorise each bond issue by the United States Treasury by passing a legislative act that approved the issue and the amount.

In 1917, during World War I, Congress created the debt ceiling with the Second Liberty Bond Act of 1917, which allowed Treasury to issue bonds and take on other debt without specific Congressional approval, as long as the total debt fell under the statutory debt ceiling. The 1917 legislation set limits on the aggregate amount of debt that could be accumulated through individual categories of debt (such as bonds and bills).

In 1939, Congress instituted the first limit on total accumulated debt over all kinds of instruments.[3] The debt ceiling, in which an aggregate limit is applied to nearly all federal debt, was substantially established by Public Debt Acts[4][5] passed in 1939 and 1941 and subsequently amended. The United States Public Debt Act of 1939 eliminated separate limits on different types of debt.[6] The Public Debt Act of 1941 raised the aggregate debt limit on all obligations to $65 billion, and consolidated nearly all federal borrowing under the U.S. Treasury and eliminated the tax-exemption of interest and profit on government debt.[6]

Subsequent Public Debt Acts amended the aggregate debt limit: the 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945 acts raised the limit to $125 billion, $210 billion, $260 billion, and $300 billion respectively.[6] In 1946, the Public Debt Act was amended to reduce the debt limit to $275 billion.[6] The limit stayed unchanged until 1954, the Korean War being financed through taxation.[7]

A feature of the Public Debt Acts, unlike the 1919 Victory Liberty Bond Act which financed American costs in the First World War, was that the new ceiling was set about 10% above the actual federal debt at the time.[7]
Congress imposed limits on itself over 100 years ago and then exceeded those limits more than 100 times (both parties have been guilty).
Why do we vote them back when they don’t comply with their own legislation ?
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#6

Post by keith »

And what about the 14th amendment?
Has everybody heard about the bird?
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#7

Post by raison de arizona »

keith wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:05 pm And what about the 14th amendment?
I've heard very little.
Debt limit options narrowing, 14th Amendment chatter returns
With Republicans taking a hard line, there’s no clear path to avoiding a default on U.S. obligations

Call it the “in case of emergency, break glass” option: The president invokes the Civil War-era 14th Amendment to the Constitution to ignore the statutory debt limit and continue to borrow if lawmakers can’t agree to give the Treasury Department more borrowing room.

With lawmakers and the White House careening toward the diciest debt limit confrontation since the Obama administration-GOP battles of 2011 and 2013, the possibility is real that the U.S. government might not be able to meet its commitments in full and on time. That day could come sometime next month, Treasury says, so the sooner the debt ceiling is lifted the better in order to calm financial markets.

“There is a big difference between avoiding default by months or minutes,” Treasury Secretary Janet L. Yellen wrote in The Wall Street Journal on Sunday, citing the 2011 debate that went down to the wire and led Standard & Poor’s to downgrade U.S. credit.

But with Republicans taking a hard line and 60 votes likely needed to advance a debt limit measure in the evenly divided Senate, there’s no clear path to avoiding what Yellen calls a “default” on U.S. obligations.

No one, least of all the White House, is talking publicly about the possibility that President Joe Biden might consider, for the first time in U.S. history, ordering Treasury to defy the $28.4 trillion debt ceiling and continue to borrow.

But Biden was there as vice president during the Obama-era fights with intransigent Republicans, and his entire agenda could be at risk if there’s another extended stalemate over the full faith and credit of the United States.

:snippity:
https://www.rollcall.com/2021/09/20/deb ... r-returns/
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#8

Post by Slim Cognito »

Am I misremembering, but, despite McConnell's best efforts, didn't the public blame him and the GOP for the debt crisis instead of Obama?
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#9

Post by keith »

Slim Cognito wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:30 pm Am I misremembering, but, despite McConnell's best efforts, didn't the public blame him and the GOP for the debt crisis instead of Obama?
And Cruz.
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#10

Post by Lani »

Slim Cognito wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:30 pm Am I misremembering, but, despite McConnell's best efforts, didn't the public blame him and the GOP for the debt crisis instead of Obama?
The GQP public or the Dem public? The GQP public say Obama caused the great recession.
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#11

Post by Slim Cognito »

Lani wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:18 am
Slim Cognito wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:30 pm Am I misremembering, but, despite McConnell's best efforts, didn't the public blame him and the GOP for the debt crisis instead of Obama?
The GQP public or the Dem public? The GQP public say Obama caused the great recession.
I was thinking of the polls. But, yeah, I have a former friend who insists the correct term is, " The Obama Recession."
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#12

Post by neeneko »

Lani wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:18 am The GQP public or the Dem public? The GQP public say Obama caused the great recession.
I imagine a big part of the lesson, and thus equation today, is that it does not even matter what most GoP voters think, only the core.
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#13

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#14

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#15

Post by northland10 »

Volkonski wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:48 pm
Officially, forecasting for 10 years is not entirely official because military spending can only be done for 2 years (a bit of Constitutional fun). However, interesting how military spending has gone over the years.

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It had been going down and then jumped up under Trump. Surprise, surprise. Contractors need their loving.
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#16

Post by busterbunker »

A Government Shutdown Is Just 3 Days Away - Sept. 30?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanpo ... 1ea5714b9f

Aw jeez, not this shit again....
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#17

Post by Volkonski »

While the Congress plays baseball -

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#18

Post by raison de arizona »

Volkonski wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:44 pm While the Congress plays baseball -

https://twitter.com/ReedReports/status/ ... 23776?s=19
Deals are made on the golf course baseball diamond?
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#19

Post by Volkonski »

Congresspersons just love those Dove Bars. ;)
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

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Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#21

Post by raison de arizona »

He's such a turd.
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#22

Post by raison de arizona »

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

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"I got mine."
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#24

Post by raison de arizona »

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: Raise the Debt Ceiling? Not when a Democrat is President

#25

Post by Slim Cognito »

I understand what McConnell is doing, destroy the economy, tank the market and the public blames Biden. Then the GOP takes back both sides of the Capitol, but how long can he keep that up? At some point, their rich donors* will want to see their stocks rise again. Jan 2023 is a long ways off. They'll have lots more opportunities closer to election day.

*who would have proactively taken protections but still...
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