Hybrids and E-vehicles

[Dr. Ken]

So I have a conundrum. I am buying out my car and am going to wait until the car market comes back a little. There's a shortage on vehicles because of the chip manufacturer shortage. Right now my car is worth more than the residual so I'm going to hold onto it for a while. I was thinking when I do buy next that I might get a hybrid or EV. I despise Tesla so that's out of the picture for me. I was looking at the Audi Q5 Hybrid but I think despite it being an SUV the Mustang Mach E doesn't look all too bad if I was going to go full electric. Anyone have a hybrid or EV here?

[jcolvin2]

Anyone have a hybrid or EV here?

I have had a plug-in hybrid Volvo S90 since November of 2017. It will go about 18-20 miles on battery power. I installed an outlet with higher amperage in the garage which brings the charging time for a full charge down from six or seven hours to a little over two. Because my wife has a very short commute, many of our trips can be made on battery alone. If longer trips are required, we use the gas engine on the freeway, saving the electric engine for local driving. Our gas mileage is now hovering at about 335/mpg. Our electric bill has increased by about $18/month.

[Chilidog]

Don't you have to pay higher yearly registration fees?

[jcolvin2]

Don't you have to pay higher yearly registration fees?

I think there is an additional $75 fee paid by hybrid owners in Washington State, the proceeds of which are dedicated to building additional electrical charging stations (at least until 2025). There is an additional $150 fee paid by owners of fully electric vehicles (capable of going more than 30 miles on battery alone).

[humblescribe]

Don't hate me. We have two Teslas. We've had one for seven years and the other for nearly four.

The disadvantages to EVs in general is the fact that long distance travel is limited to battery size, the availability of Level 3 charging on the road (that is DC-DC fast charging), and the speeds at which the Level 3 charging station can shoot electricity into the battery cells.

Electrify America is currently installing many charging stations across the US that utilize either the generic CCS standard or the Japanese CHAdeMO standard. Electric rates are a little pricey at these installations. I recall that the maximum they currently can provide is around 50kW. Tesla's proprietary charging stations provide up to 250kW for their newer models. I took a cross-country trip in June. My average charging time was less than 15 minutes every couple hours. Long enough to visit the bathroom and perhaps stretch my legs.

For local driving and relatively short commutes, home or workplace AC (Level 2) charging works like a charm. You charge while sleeping or while working. Generally those Level 2 chargers provide a minimum of 30A at 240 (sometimes 208)V. So, you will be receiving 6-7 kW while plugged in. An eight-hour charge will then add 48-50kWh to your battery (if your battery will take that amount and is large enough.)

The biggest advantage to all electric is that there are much fewer parts. Traction battery, battery cooling/heating system, drive motors, and charging hardware are about it.

Too, also, you have to get rid of the fill-er-up concept that we have used our entire lives with gasoline/diesel vehicles. Rarely is it necessary to fill an electric vehicle above 90%. In fact, I keep our cars at 55-65% around town. It is a quirk of electrical engineering that with Level 3 charging the charge rate tapers as the battery fills. In our newer car, it takes around 20 minutes to go from 15% to 65%. To go from 65% to 85% would take an additional 15 minutes or so. And from 85% to 95% yet another 15-20 minutes.

I know very little about the modern hybrids, so I cannot comment. I have heard anecdotally that many of the newer, more expensive ones can go for 500+ miles driving on a combination of self-generated electricity and gasoline. I don't know how complicated these vehicles are when something breaks down.

Suggested questions to ask or determine would include:

How large is the traction (storage) battery?
How fast will this car charge at L3 charging stations?
How many amps will the onboard charger accept to rectify AC to DC?
About how far in real-life driving conditions will an 80% charge take me down to ~10%? The EPA number is fluff.
How effective is the regeneration of electricity when you slow down, when you brake, and when you are going downhill?

Good luck! And I am not a Tesla fanbois. In fact, they have pissed my wife and me off a couple of times. But for what is out there right now and today, they are the best electric car out there for all driving situations, local and long distance, and ultra quick level 3 charging.

[Dr. Ken]

Don't you have to pay higher yearly registration fees?

Yeah but ny has a tax credit plus there's a federal one so that seems appealing.

[Dr. Ken]

Well how about replacement parts humble? I heard tesla can get quite expensive. Also hp I've become accustomed to 300 hp and won't go back below that. The new q5 has a 17.5kw battery it's really just supplemental. The mustang though has about 88kw and can do about 250 miles on a charge. They also come with a plug in charger and at night charging wouldn't be a problem. There's a local evgo station at the outlets in town which charges 2.5 cents per minute so it wouldn't be that expensive to charge. Also they installed 2 stations where I work that are free so there's that

[bob]

Lease, not own, an electric Fiat.

Great acceleration and handling. Gets around 80 miles per charge, so it is meant for short trips.

[Sequoia32]

Sounds like you want something fancier than a Prius, but I have owned one since the Gen2 came out in 2003.

I got mine before anyone else in Santa Cruz Co, even before Julie Packard got hers. I'm on my 3rd, only because my son totaled the other 2. It is a 2007.

Between the 3 cars: routine oil changes, 1 headlamp change, tires, wipers and 1 battery replacement - not the pack, the starting battery just like in a gasoline car. Never had any brake jobs or anything else. Nothing.

I used to commute "over the hill" from Santa Cruz to Mountain View and got 500 miles to a tank at times.

We are very large people. I am 6'2" and son is 6'9". There are very few cars we are comfortable in but we do fine in the older Prius' (we didn't like the new ones when we last bought in 2016). I can't tell you how many times I made the round-trip to Santa Barbara to pick him up or drop him off at college with no discomfort.

If I was buying again and could afford it, I'd get an all-electric 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning! That vehicle is amazing! Power your house in an outage, tow a big travel trailer...

[Dr. Ken]

Sounds like you want something fancier than a Prius, but I have owned one since the Gen2 came out in 2003.

I got mine before anyone else in Santa Cruz Co, even before Julie Packard got hers. I'm on my 3rd, only because my son totaled the other 2. It is a 2007.

Between the 3 cars: routine oil changes, 1 headlamp change, tires, wipers and 1 battery replacement - not the pack, the starting battery just like in a gasoline car. Never had any brake jobs or anything else. Nothing.

I used to commute "over the hill" from Santa Cruz to Mountain View and got 500 miles to a tank at times.

We are very large people. I am 6'2" and son is 6'9". There are very few cars we are comfortable in but we do fine in the older Prius' (we didn't like the new ones when we last bought in 2016). I can't tell you how many times I made the round-trip to Santa Barbara to pick him up or drop him off at college with no discomfort.

If I was buying again and could afford it, I'd get an all-electric 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning! That vehicle is amazing! Power your house in an outage, tow a big travel trailer...

I had a prius as a rental for about a day one time. I really did not like the handling. The pedals felt weird and it was way underpowered

[tek]

Do NOT buy an Audi hybrid. If you have to, lease it for a short term.

On a good day, a bog-standard Audi is a maintenance nightmare. When everything is running right, they are wonderful vehicles; when something goes wrong, the car becomes a long-lost lover.

I can't imagine the competence of "factory-trained" Audi techs when faced with a hybrid.

Now, in fairness, Audi is not alone in this. I'm looking at replacing the 8-year-old Grand Cherokee, and Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis is pushing hard on their new hybrid powertrains. Which are a total kluge. Depending on what happens over the next few months, I may be getting another pushrod V8

[MN-Skeptic]

My youngest sister who lives in Michigan owns a Prius. Since she's an author who works from home, she puts very few miles on her car. The dealership told her she should drive more in order to keep the batteries charged. That had been an issue for her.

[MN-Skeptic]

I always wondered how these vehicles would fare in the winters in places like Minnesota. Batteries typically don't like cold temperatures.

[Dr. Ken]

Do NOT buy an Audi hybrid. If you have to, lease it for a short term.

On a good day, a bog-standard Audi is a maintenance nightmare. When everything is running right, they are wonderful vehicles; when something goes wrong, the car becomes a long-lost lover.

I can't imagine the competence of "factory-trained" Audi techs when faced with a hybrid.

Now, in fairness, Audi is not alone in this. I'm looking at replacing the 8-year-old Grand Cherokee, and Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis is pushing hard on their new hybrid powertrains. Which are a total kluge. Depending on what happens over the next few months, I may be getting another pushrod V8

I usually don't buy. If anything I plan to lease for a few years. I'm going to check around for different luxury brands.

[Chilidog]

Don't you have to pay higher yearly registration fees?

I think there is an additional $75 fee paid by hybrid owners in Washington State, the proceeds of which are dedicated to building additional electrical charging stations (at least until 2025). There is an additional $150 fee paid by owners of fully electric vehicles (capable of going more than 30 miles on battery alone).

Illinois was hoping to hike the fees to $1000 a year but then set it at $251 annualy. (Compared to $100 or so for gas cars.)

There's valid reasons for raising the fees and valid reasons for keeping them low.

[jcolvin2]

Illinois was hoping to hike the fees to $1000 a year but then set it at $251 annualy. (Compared to $100 or so for gas cars.)
There's valid reasons for raising the fees and valid reasons for keeping them low.

The argument out here is that the state gas tax is dedicated chiefly to fund road construction and repair. Electric vehicles and hybrids contribute to the stress on the roads, and therefore should pay a surrogate tax. Some politicians have suggested a per mile fee for all vehicles (perhaps coupled with eliminating some of the gas tax).

[jcolvin2]

I always wondered how these vehicles would fare in the winters in places like Minnesota. Batteries typically don't like cold temperatures.

I usually get a reduced battery life in the winter on my plug-in hybrid, and we do not get nearly as cold as Minnesota.

[somerset]

This video is interesting if you're seriously considering a Mach-E:



We have a Model Y and just completed a 3000 mi road trip. Leaving aside the performance, styling and interior differences (and opinions), the comments on charging seemed accurate from our experience. Around town (assuming you don't have a charger installed in your garage), relying on Level 3 EVgo stations is OK, and some apartments/condos have Level 2 charging stations available (ours has 8 Chargepoint stations, and that's where we normally charge at home, using a J1772/Tesla adaptor). But on the road the Supercharger network makes long distances doable, if not exactly convenient. Trying to do a long road trip on Level 2 chargers is only for those with lots and lots of time, and the availability of Level 3 chargers for CCS and CHAdeMO connectors is limited.

[somerset]

Well how about replacement parts humble? I heard tesla can get quite expensive. Also hp I've become accustomed to 300 hp and won't go back below that. The new q5 has a 17.5kw battery it's really just supplemental. The mustang though has about 88kw and can do about 250 miles on a charge. They also come with a plug in charger and at night charging wouldn't be a problem. There's a local evgo station at the outlets in town which charges 2.5 cents per minute so it wouldn't be that expensive to charge. Also they installed 2 stations where I work that are free so there's that

If you can charge at work, you're probably in good shape, although with only 2 stations you may find your charging time limited. In my last job we had a chat group dedicated to letting everyone know when the chargers were available and they were always in use.

For reference, I usually charge at home using a 6kW* Chargepoint station, and the charging rate is about 1.33 hours for 10%** of battery capacity (75kW battery).

Our Tesla is quite new, so I don't have any experience with parts cost. I've heard that repair costs can be quite high, but most problems are covered under warranty. The only big expense I've been warned about is tires. Since Teslas are heavy, can accelerate very hard and use regenerative braking a lot, they're hard on tires. I've been told to budget for a new set every two years or so.

*Most Level 2 chargers are either 6kW or 8kW (i.e., 220V at 30A or 50A)

**Instead of miles, I set our battery indicator to show state of charge (i.e., percent) just like phones, tablets, laptops, and every other battery powered device on the planet.

[Lani]

I had a 2005 Toyota hybrid, bought used with mileage under a 1000. The owner bought it when she moved to Kauai. Then she decided she hated it here. Then she she realized that she wasn't going to get the price she wanted....

I loved it! But when my son needed a car while he was a college student, I gave him my car. Mainly because maintenance is very rare & very affordable. Well, until you have to replace the battery.... It still looks good & runs great. And I still miss it.

Of course, I needed another car. At that time, gas prices were skyrocketing. I wanted another hybrid or a Honda Civic. OMG, the prices were huge. There was a one year old deluxe Accord w/11k miles (it had everything, including leather seats) that no one would buy because of the mpg. The price was way below the cost of a basic Civic with 56k miles. So now I put up with 25-28 mpg. And it's a really great car! But I still want a Prius

[Maybenaut]

We have a 2018 Nissan Leaf. We bought it used; had it since March of this year. It scoots! It gets about 130 miles per charge (newer ones have greater range). We charge it on regular 110 over night (we only use it for trips into town - Luray is 7 miles away; Harrisonburg is 30). We’re planning to take a trip to NC next year, and we’re going to map out a charging plan - we’ll have to stop twice.

I also had a Lexus RX 450h, which got 25 mpg. Traded that for a Honda Pilot, which gets 30. Also had a Honda Civic hybrid and a Prius in the past.

We’re planning on getting a second EV to replace the Pilot in a few years. We’re having solar installed soon - just waiting on the permits.

[busterbunker]

Just realized I've been driving the Gen 2 Prius for like 16 years. First my girlfriend's 2005, then my second-hand 2007. It's an easy car to drive. You can fold down the seats flat and sleep in the back, so It doubles as my RV. My mechanic confided the Gen2 might be the best of the lot because Toyota put all their time and money into the functional stuff, less on the styling.

Most of my driving is from the coast to the mountains, 4-6 hours a shot, and EVs don't yet have that range. Chargers are few and far between. Don't necessarily trust the grid, either. I doubt we will go full EV in my lifetime. That being said, hybrid engines should become the standard option. Formula 1 has been hybrid for years.

When it comes to steep hills, I'll admit the Prius is underpowered. You're relying on a gas engine the size of a lawnmower. So I'll be patient, let the fancy sports cars and SUVs pass, because when we get to the top, I'm gonna smoke them. They don't know how to drive.

[Chilidog]

Illinois was hoping to hike the fees to $1000 a year but then set it at $251 annualy. (Compared to $100 or so for gas cars.)
There's valid reasons for raising the fees and valid reasons for keeping them low.

The argument out here is that the state gas tax is dedicated chiefly to fund road construction and repair. Electric vehicles and hybrids contribute to the stress on the roads, and therefore should pay a surrogate tax. Some politicians have suggested a per mile fee for all vehicles (perhaps coupled with eliminating some of the gas tax).

The issue with a per mile tax is how do you tax out of state vehicles and not tax miles driven out of the state for local vehicles?

[humblescribe]

If you lease, any parts issues ought to be covered under warranty. The drawbacks to leasing which you undoubtedly are aware of are the mileage caps imposed by the lease and whether you wish to buy the car at the end of the term.

We have the normal tires on the S and the 3. I had to replace the factory tires on the S at 55,000 miles; the replacements still have at least half their tread life remaining at 77,000 miles. But we are not hard on vehicles.

I think that with EVs there will be giant steps in technology occurring at a rapid pace for the next several years as the manufacturers figure things out and perhaps develop better battery chemistry. So, leasing might be the way to go for the nonce.

The best overall advice that I can offer up to you is to figure out your normal driving patterns, your occasional driving patterns, and your rare driving patterns, and then decide which vehicle fits the bill. You can always rent a car for those annual long trips or the odd weekend getaway that is many hours away.

BTW, volts for residences have been increased to 120/240. The old 110/220 are mostly long gone.

[pjhimself]