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MN-Skeptic
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#301

Post by MN-Skeptic »

raison de arizona wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:58 pm Have always heard that to stimulate the economy, you put money in the pockets of poor people. Because they'll spend it, unlike rich people, who will hoard it. Only one of those things stimulates the economy.
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#302

Post by Gupwalla »

noblepa wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:29 pm Yeah, I've never understood where the bitcoin (or any other cryptocurrency) "ore" that they are mining is supposed to be. […]

So, as someone who knows a little about computers, it always seemed to me that the "mining" of cryptocurrencies really meant "we went through a very complex and time-consuming process of making them up out of thin air". I think that, in the beginning, the complexity was there to prevent every Tom, Dick and Harry from simply creating his own bitcoins. But, in the last few years, enough people have learned how to do it, and are willing to spend the time and money, every Tom and Dick (Harry is still working on it) has done just that.
John Maynard Keynes speculated once that a government could stimulate a depressed economy just by burying a bunch of money in a huge hole and then walking away. The first round of stimulus (public) is the government paying laborers to move a bunch of dirt to and fro. The next round (private) is some bunch of entrepreneurs calculating the ROI on a dinning-up operation to retrieve the buried money.

(Heck, even a single intrepid individual with a shovel could make a fortune if she rolled up her sleeves and got to it, instead of doing the ROI PowerPoint and getting fifteen approvals on the business plan.)

Wasteful? Sure. But it does get a lot of money moving that wasn’t moving before.

I would love to someday read a Keynesian take on the crypto world, because the whole “crypto mining” process kind of boils down to convincing a bunch of free agents to do all your check ledger recording and balancing work for you, on a “fastest runner” contingency basis. Moving dirt to and fro, in the digital age.
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#303

Post by Suranis »

noblepa wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:29 pmYeah, I've never understood where the bitcoin (or any other cryptocurrency) "ore" that they are mining is supposed to be. Real-world mining is easy to understand. Someone goes out, digs a hole, brings up some rocks, melts them down and extracts whatever mineral they are looking for. The iron, gold, silver, lithium or whatever was there all along. The miners just have to find it, bring it out and convert it to a useable form. Where are the unmined bitcoins to be found?

So, as someone who knows a little about computers, it always seemed to me that the "mining" of cryptocurrencies really meant "we went through a very complex and time-consuming process of making them up out of thin air". I think that, in the beginning, the complexity was there to prevent every Tom, Dick and Harry from simply creating his own bitcoins. But, in the last few years, enough people have learned how to do it, and are willing to spend the time and money, every Tom and Dick (Harry is still working on it) has done just that.
"Mining" was and is marketed "finding" coins in your hard drive. IN REALITY, its actually running the Transactions of Bitcoin, updating the Individual coin Databases as they are used to "pay" for stuff, and pass back and forth between people. Kinda like SETI uses peoples idle computers to analyze radio signals.

As a reward for this, a set amount of Bitcoins are released by Bitcoin Central periodically in a totally not corrupt completely neutral fashion. The period started every 10 minutes, now is about every 9.5 minutes, as They need to keep people mining, so sending out the reward faster is a way to keep people interested. So there is a chance that YOUR computer will get a Bitcoin from the release, and that's your reward for letting Bitcoin use your machine for keeping The Coin going.

There is apparently a pretty complicated way that individual "mining" computers compete with one another to be one of the ones that are issued a Bitcoin. It's probably something to do with processing more transactions than anyone else, but being knowingly cynical it's probably a method that interferes with the actual work of running the Bitcoin transactions. Ya I'm guessing on that, sorry.

So ya, you run up a massive electricity bill and there is little chance at all you will get a bitcoin that will not actually pay for the electricity you used to "mine" for it. If you don't buy into the Marketing spin and bullshit, take a step back and look at what is actually happening, Mining is pretty easy to understand.

Since the supply of Bitcoin is steadily increasing, the overall pressure on pricing is down. And there will come a point where the price will drop below even economics of scale will mean its not profitable to "mine," people will stop doing it and Bitcoin will stop updating its transactions, going into a collapse.
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#304

Post by neonzx »

Um, so are you saying my huge payout is not coming. Actor Matt Damon lied to me.

Even that self-proclaimed "Mr. Wonderful" dude on a crappy show called "shark tank"

Swim with sharks, you get eaten. Buyer beware.
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#305

Post by RTH10260 »

:crying: :crying: :crying: damn- no crocodile emoji
Former FTX CEO Sam Bankman-Fried arrested in Bahamas, charged with wire fraud and conspiracy in U.S.

BY JORDAN FREIMAN
UPDATED ON: DECEMBER 13, 2022 / 9:59 AM / CBS NEWS

Former FTX CEO Sam Bankman-Fried was arrested Monday in the Bahamas, based on charges filed in the U.S. The federal charges, unsealed Tuesday morning, include multiple counts of wire fraud and conspiracy related to the collapse of his cryptocurrency exchange.

Bankman-Fried's arrest "followed receipt of formal notification from the United States that it has filed criminal charges against SBF and is likely to request his extradition," the Office of the Attorney General of the Bahamas said in a statement Monday.

The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York confirmed Bankman-Fried was in custody, saying that the arrest was made based on a sealed indictment. "We expect to move to unseal the indictment in the morning and will have more to say at that time," the SDNY said.

The grand jury indictment charged Bankman-Fried — widely known by his initials, SBF — with seven counts, including wire fraud and conspiracy to commit wire fraud against lenders and customers, conspiracy to commit securities fraud, conspiracy to commit money laundering, and violations of campaign finance laws.

Federal regulators and the Justice Department had been investigating whether FTX used customer funds to back risky bets at Bankman-Fried's hedge fund, Alameda Research.

The Securities and Exchange Commission said following news of the arrest that it had "authorized separate charges relating to [Bankman-Fried's] violations of securities laws." The SEC complaint alleges that Bankman-Fried diverted diverted customer funds from FTX to Alameda Research and used that money for "fraudulent" purposes, including real estate purchases and big political donations.



https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sam-bankma ... d-charges/
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#306

Post by pipistrelle »

💦🐊
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#307

Post by RTH10260 »

:clap: :lol:
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#308

Post by RTH10260 »

Binance Withdrawals Surge as Concerns About Its Reserve Report Spook Traders
Binance endured $902 million of net outflows in the past 24 hours, according to data by Nansen.

By Krisztian Sandor
AccessTimeIconDec 13, 2022 at 1:20 a.m. Updated Dec 13, 2022 at 4:56 p.m.


Binance, the world’s largest crypto exchange by trading volume, endured a wave of withdrawals on Monday amid concerns about its proof of reserve report.

Net outflows, the difference between the value of assets arriving and leaving the exchange, hit $902 million in the past 24 hours, according to data by blockchain intelligence platform Nansen.

Binance’s net outflow has surpassed those of all other centralized exchanges’ in the last 24 hours, and is almost nine times larger than the second largest outflow.

The outflow was the highest for Binance since Nov. 13, two days after FTX filed for bankruptcy protection, according to data provided by blockchain data platform Arkham Intelligence.

However, the outflow “doesn’t seem notably anomalous,” an Arkham analyst wrote in a Telegram chat, given that there are ostensibly $64 billions of assets on Binance.

Withdrawals rose following a string of concerning news reports about Binance, and as investors have become increasingly cautious about their funds on centralized exchange. The swift collapse of rival exchange FTX, piled on other industry debacles, has prompted other exchanges to prove that they are safeguarding customers’ assets.



https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2022/1 ... k-traders/
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#309

Post by RTH10260 »

Exclusive: U.S. Justice Dept is split over charging Binance as crypto world falters

By Angus Berwick, Dan Levine and Tom Wilson
December 12, 20226:05 PM GMT+1 Last Updated a day ago

Summary
  • Some DOJ prosecutors believe evidence justifies filing charges against executives including CEO Zhao
    DOJ officials have discussed possible plea deals with Binance's attorneys
    Binance is under investigation for possible money laundering and criminal sanctions violations
    Binance says it has no insight into the "inner workings of the US Justice Department"
WASHINGTON, Dec 12 (Reuters) - Splits between U.S. Department of Justice prosecutors are delaying the conclusion of a long-running criminal investigation into the world's largest cryptocurrency exchange Binance, four people familiar with the matter have told Reuters.

The investigation began in 2018 and is focused on Binance's compliance with U.S. anti-money laundering laws and sanctions, these people said. Some of the at least half dozen federal prosecutors involved in the case believe the evidence already gathered justifies moving aggressively against the exchange and filing criminal charges against individual executives including founder Changpeng Zhao, said two of the sources. Others have argued taking time to review more evidence, the sources said.

The inquiry involves prosecutors at three Justice Department offices: the Money Laundering and Asset Recovery Section, known as MLARS, the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Washington in Seattle and the National Cryptocurrency Enforcement Team. Justice Department regulations say that money laundering charges against a financial institution must be approved by the MLARS chief. Leaders from the other two offices, along with higher-level DOJ officials, would likely also have to sign off on any action against Binance, three of the sources said.




https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-j ... 022-12-12/
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#310

Post by Gregg »

Gupwalla wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:04 pm
Gregg wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:10 pm The ''textbook'' definition of money is 'that which you can use to pay your taxes".
Because all commerce in a controlled environment where you can be compelled to give what you recived payment for, boils down to taxation.
You can be slightly more upbeat by also including “that which the issuing government uses to pay its debt obligations” to the list.

Governments pay salaries and issue contracts for work, which is also part of what underpins the ultimate value of money. And from the standpoint of the government - spending creates money, taxation destroys it.

Yes, government spending and taxation are a good/evil or yen/yang kind of thing. :thumbsup:
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#311

Post by Gregg »

Suranis wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:24 pm
:snippity:

Since the supply of Bitcoin is steadily increasing, the overall pressure on pricing is down. And there will come a point where the price will drop below even economics of scale will mean its not profitable to "mine," people will stop doing it and Bitcoin will stop updating its transactions, going into a collapse.
And I have spent several years wondering what wisdom I am missing as to why that won't happen. (The total number of BTC is capped, I dunno how close we are to the last one being created). Someone, anyone, tell me how this does not end at zero.
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#312

Post by much ado »

Gregg wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:03 am
Suranis wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:24 pm
:snippity:

Since the supply of Bitcoin is steadily increasing, the overall pressure on pricing is down. And there will come a point where the price will drop below even economics of scale will mean its not profitable to "mine," people will stop doing it and Bitcoin will stop updating its transactions, going into a collapse.
And I have spent several years wondering what wisdom I am missing as to why that won't happen. (The total number of BTC is capped, I dunno how close we are to the last one being created). Someone, anyone, tell me how this does not end at zero.
Okay, so I had to look it up. The cap is 21 million bitcoins. Supposedly, there are currently 19,231,918.75 bitcoins in existence. This article says it will happen about 2140.

https://decrypt.co/33124/what-will-happ ... -are-mined

I think it will end at zero.
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#313

Post by neeneko »

Gregg wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:03 am And I have spent several years wondering what wisdom I am missing as to why that won't happen. (The total number of BTC is capped, I dunno how close we are to the last one being created). Someone, anyone, tell me how this does not end at zero.
The last BTC will be minded in 2140, so yeah, it will eventually drop to zero. However, miners also get a cut of the transaction fee. In theory you can transfer BTC for free, but in practice if you go the free route, it will never go through, so you pay an optional amount to encourage miners to process your transaction. So miner profitability is really tied to how much people are willing to spend to guarantee their transfer happens.
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#314

Post by Gregg »

neeneko wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:17 am
Gregg wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:03 am And I have spent several years wondering what wisdom I am missing as to why that won't happen. (The total number of BTC is capped, I dunno how close we are to the last one being created). Someone, anyone, tell me how this does not end at zero.
The last BTC will be minded in 2140, so yeah, it will eventually drop to zero. However, miners also get a cut of the transaction fee. In theory you can transfer BTC for free, but in practice if you go the free route, it will never go through, so you pay an optional amount to encourage miners to process your transaction. So miner profitability is really tied to how much people are willing to spend to guarantee their transfer happens.
Yes. I knew about the fees.

So, the Future of Money, reason #523 "frees you from the fees of the fiat banks", is subject to you paying (way more) to the decentralized block chain ledger keepers, who will be happy to post your transaction next month.

The mind numbing delays in posting a transaction creates the need for middlemen who charge yet more fees to float the closing.

It is cheaper and faster to wrap dollars in foil and mail them.
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#315

Post by neeneko »

Gregg wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:36 pm So, the Future of Money, reason #523 "frees you from the fees of the fiat banks", is subject to you paying (way more) to the decentralized block chain ledger keepers, who will be happy to post your transaction next month.
Funny how 'revolution' tends to be more about replacing the leadership with something worse while not delivering on anything to the public.
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#316

Post by Gregg »

noblepa wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:55 pm Gregg, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that individual banks don't create money so much as the banking system creates money.

I deposit $1,000 in my bank account. The bank deposits a small (5%?) portion of that with the Fed. My bank then loans the remaining $950 to someone, who deposits it in his bank (or spends it at a store, whose owner deposits it in HIS bank). That bank then deposits 5% with the Fed and loans out the remaining amount. And so on.

The upshot is that my $1,000 does the work of several thousand dollars.

This is why, when we are recovering from a recession or depression, economists want us to spend our money, not just hoard it in a bank, or pay down bills.

I've heard this referred to as the "velocity" of money. The faster it is spent, the more work it does in the economy.

I realize that this is a massive over simplification of the process.

I remember in 1974, I was a young programmer for a large Cleveland bank. I was assigned the duty to receive phone calls from the computer operations department, when the DDA system (checking accounts) crashed. This was before VPN or even significant dial-up capability, so I had to drive in to the data center. One night, I was sitting there at 3:00am, with a cup of coffee and a hexadecimal calculator, when it hit me: I was playing with a couple of billion dollars of someone else's money. There was no vault or safe where this wealth sat and my computer was simply keeping track of it. Those computer files WERE the wealth. I had to stop and take a walk and catch my breath.

You're kind of close and kind of wrong and sometimes really wrong.

All of the your end of this stuff is covered by Federal Reserve Regulation D (which is suspended since March of 2020 due to the pandemic and most of it is not currently legally in force, though banks are following the rules in most circumstances)

You're bank doesn't deposit part of your money and loan the rest. I mean it does exactly that but that's not what it does. (this is why I say the Fed is Voodoo, its best you just accept that it is and it does as it must and your input is not required)

A bank that is part of the Federal Reserve System holds a percentage of their "non-personal time deposits" or their business savings (not checking) acounts with the Federal Reserve Bank OR in their vaults in cash. During the pandemic this reserve requirement was for a time set at zero, but it's usually between 3% and 9%. It's not the same for every bank, It is set according to how the Fed rates a bank's risk profile. They recieve 6% dividend interest on the money held at the Fed annually which is why none of them keep it in their vault. They do loan the rest and more, sort of. It depends on what kind of account you have it in. They actually borrow much more from all kinds of places, including the Fed Discount Window so they can loan out a lot more than your deposit, and the interest they earn on that money is the money created.

The short answer to how money is created is it's earned interest that is paid to a lender. The number or times a dollar is loaned, paid back with interest and loaned out again in a given period is velocity. Giving money to poor people increases velocity because they spend it, giving money to rich people decreases velocity because they save it. But, well, what do you mean save it, because if it's invested in new goods and services that's spending by cousin, it's just a little slower than direct spending.

Sorry this is all over, I am writing it in sections that are not in the order it appears...

Ever wonder why Chekcing and Savings are separate acounts?
Banks must keep on hand enough money to satisfy any withdrawl demands on checking accounts but not nonpersonal savings accounts.

Your bank until recenlty was not required to let you withdrawl from a Savings Account on demand, and they could legally limit you to 6 withdrawls a month from a money market or savings account (not a checking account, which is called legally a demand account) The 6 withdrawl limit is a Reg D thing that no longer applies and I think the Fed is just gonna let it fade off into the sunset as something leftover from the Crash of 1929 we no longer need.

Anyhow, yes, the loan your money out, after putting some aside on deposit at the Fed although in theory they could put it in the vault, and currently they don't have to put any in reserve but they do and, it's complicated. The reason ignorant people think the Fed creates money out of thin air is because the mechanincs of how they don't is so insanely complicated that explaining it takes the equvilant of a graduate degree to give the bullit points and the TL:DR answer is every night when you say your prayers, thank whoever you pray to that the Fed is completley outside of Congressional oversight or reveiw because the only thing that can positively wreck it it politicians trying to manipulate it for votes.
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#317

Post by Gregg »

raison de arizona wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:58 pm Have always heard that to stimulate the economy, you put money in the pockets of poor people. Because they'll spend it, unlike rich people, who will hoard it. Only one of those things stimulates the economy.
Both work in theory. Money hoarded, if it's not in a mattress, is still money in the economy but it's indirect so slower and less efficient.
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#318

Post by Gupwalla »

Interesting take on crypto from actor Ben McKenzie (“The O.C.”), who has a book on crypto coming out next year.

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#319

Post by Gupwalla »

Just saw a clip of Rep. Sherman 0n MTP, who said something that floored me - because it is etymologically true, and also very apt:

“Cryptocurrency means hidden currency.”

And that is true - “crypto” is from the Greek “kryptos,” which means “hidden.”

The context was Sherman’s belief that the correct legislative approach to crypto was not to ban it, but to bring the anti-money laundering laws to full force against it. If crypto cannot be used to move laundered money and evade financial regulation, it will die on its own.

Sherman also said that cryptocurrency is not really a currency, but “an electronic pet rock.”
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#320

Post by Suranis »

Gupwalla wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:45 pm Just saw a clip of Rep. Sherman 0n MTP, who said something that floored me - because it is etymologically true, and also very apt:

“Cryptocurrency means hidden currency.”

And that is true - “crypto” is from the Greek “kryptos,” which means “hidden.”

The context was Sherman’s belief that the correct legislative approach to crypto was not to ban it, but to bring the anti-money laundering laws to full force against it. If crypto cannot be used to move laundered money and evade financial regulation, it will die on its own.

Sherman also said that cryptocurrency is not really a currency, but “an electronic pet rock.”
Thats very insightful.
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#321

Post by RTH10260 »

Nothing special about the "hidden" quality.

Apart from having a form of fund transfers outside of the tradditional banking sector the initiators were back in the time of the inception of blockchain based currencies concerned about the governments infringement on privacy. It was the time where the US government required banks to report larger amounts transferred among citizens, including the now infamous "structuring", cause everyone was considered to be a potential criminal of some kind.
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#322

Post by Gregg »

Banks still report all cash transactions over $10,000 as well as anything the think might be indicative of criminal activity. Most SARs are filed without the subject of them ever knowing they were filed and very few of them go beyond the initial report.
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#323

Post by Suranis »

https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... rt-2022-12
Binance's former chief financial officer did not have access to the company's full accounts during his three-year tenure, report says
Morgan Chittum
Dec. 19, 2022, 11:29 AM

Binance's former CFO did not have full access to the company's financial accounts, Reuters reported on Monday.


Binance's former Chief Financial Officer Wei Zhou did not have access to the company's full financial accounts during his nearly three-year tenure, Reuters reported, citing two people who worked with him.

Zhou, who left the Binance in 2021, did not immediately respond to Insider's request for comment. 
That's pretty much all there is. The rest of the article is breathlessly reporting that Binance did not give full financial reports to the Authorities, while at the end pointing out that as a private company it does not have to.
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#324

Post by Foggy »

Still, I couldn't help :rotflmao: at the news.

Completely separate from how crypto is fake imaginary money, the idea that a CFO didn't have access to the billion-dollar company's financial accounts is just ludicrous. It's just metaphysically absurd, man.

This whole thing is more fun than makin' mudpies, I tells ya. :smoking:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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#325

Post by RTH10260 »

Did someone forget the password to the wallet? Another fortune lost in the electronic nirwana :?:
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