Religion in schools

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raison de arizona
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Religion in schools

#1

Post by raison de arizona »

Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!

I went to a Jesuit high school for a minute once upon a time. Great fun, but every Wednesday (Thursday?) was Mass day! One had to have a tie, or one would be sent the F home with an unexcused absence. A cottage industry grew up of industrious students renting ties to those of us forgetful chaps (it was all boys) who needed one, 3-5$ a pop. They made some bank.

On a semi-related note, I had never seen as many illicit drugs in my life before I met the rich kids at Brophy Prep. Unlike all the broke suckas I knew, these kids had the cash and boredom to score real drugs. :smoking:


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bill_g
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Re: Religion in schools

#2

Post by bill_g »

Ms Rogers needs to read her some history, and why The SCOTUS declared mandatory school prayer unconstitional.

In 1963.

Kinda sorta very much celebrated no-doubt-about-it ain't gonna change settled law.

I imagine she is opposed to Sharia Law, and would stomp her feet hard if someone tried to organize a Madrasa "club", or reading from the Talmud, in her local school. Probably not too keen on yoga either.


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AndyinPA
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Re: Religion in schools

#3

Post by AndyinPA »

With this Supreme Court, there's no such thing as settled law.


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northland10
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Re: Religion in schools

#4

Post by northland10 »

raison de arizona wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:49 am Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!
When I was teaching, some kids had Bibles with them and even read them during silent reading time in homeroom (which was allowed). Some students prayed as they saw fit (silently normally, though if kids in the hall wanted to stand together in the corner and prayer before an exam, it was their choice).

Prayers and Bibles have never been banned from schools. Mandatory prayers and Bible readings have (along with being led by a person with authority, like a teacher).

I bet Wendy would be fine and dandy with banning students from bringing Korans to school and reading them on their own silent reading time.

The right's faith is so weak, they need the school to enforce it. Sad. Not what Jesus would do.


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noblepa
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Re: Religion in schools

#5

Post by noblepa »

northland10 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:37 pm When I was teaching, some kids had Bibles with them and even read them during silent reading time in homeroom (which was allowed). Some students prayed as they saw fit (silently normally, though if kids in the hall wanted to stand together in the corner and prayer before an exam, it was their choice).

Prayers and Bibles have never been banned from schools. Mandatory prayers and Bible readings have (along with being led by a person with authority, like a teacher).

I bet Wendy would be fine and dandy with banning students from bringing Korans to school and reading them on their own silent reading time.

The right's faith is so weak, they need the school to enforce it. Sad. Not what Jesus would do.
Yeah, the RWNJs and the religious fanatics like to rail about prayer being banned in schools, but it never has been.

As the old joke goes, "As long as there are history tests in school, there will be prayer".

The only thing that was banned was mandatory, school-sponsored prayer. I remember when the ban was enacted, and probably into the seventies, a few schools tried allowing students to remain silent, while the rest of the class recited a prayer. The courts ruled that this was so humiliating for the silent students that it constituted undue pressure to participate.

Can you imagine their howls if the principal happened to be a Muslim and mandated a Muslim prayer? Or even a Jewish prayer?

BTW, I read that in the original case, brought by Madeline Murray O'Hare in 1963, the prayer in question was "The Lord's Prayer", known as the "Our Father" by Catholics. The local community was diverse and included Christians, Jews and a few Muslims. None of them found the prayer objectionable. It is, after all, not a prayer TO Jesus, but a prayer BY Jesus. All three religions believe in the same God, although they have different names.

Also, later in life, Ms. O'Hare became a born-again Christian and worked to overturn the ruling she had originally sought.

My wife was a K-2 school librarian until she retired. The school had a few Muslim children. During Ramadan, one of the teachers would be assigned to entertain the Muslim kids during the lunch period and to make sure that they didn't eat anything. While I didn't think that was unreasonable, I always wondered if it was actually legal for school employees to be enforcing religious doctrine in that way.


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MN-Skeptic
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Re: Religion in schools

#6

Post by MN-Skeptic »

But we're all Christians here!

Sounds good until your Baptist child comes home and asks you about prayer beads and the Rosary and praying to Mary.


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Lani
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Re: Religion in schools

#7

Post by Lani »

O'Hair did not become a Christian. She was an atheist activist until she was murdered. Her son became a Baptist minister.


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Re: Religion in schools

#8

Post by noblepa »

Lani wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:11 pm O'Hair did not become a Christian. She was an atheist activist until she was murdered. Her son became a Baptist minister.
I stand corrected. I was misremembering. It was indeed her son, on whose behalf she brought the lawsuit, who became a devout Christian.


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northland10
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Re: Religion in schools

#9

Post by northland10 »

noblepa wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:55 pm "The Lord's Prayer", known as the "Our Father" by Catholics.
:fingerwag:
Pater Noster

:mrgreen:

Then there are those who do not say it in the proper King's English that Jesus spoke.

Πάτερ ἡμῶν


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Suranis
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Re: Religion in schools

#10

Post by Suranis »

In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti, Amen



:twisted:


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AndyinPA
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Re: Religion in schools

#11

Post by AndyinPA »

Well, that's certainly different!


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northland10
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Re: Religion in schools

#12

Post by northland10 »

If you need a palette cleansing

A beautiful sung version of the Abun d-bashmayo (Lord's Prayer in Syriac)


I am pretty sure that most "Prayer in School" folks would not approve of doing this version, despite its beauty. It's in some eastern language (Syriac) and not the holy King's English that Jesus spoke.


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Suranis
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Re: Religion in schools

#13

Post by Suranis »

Much more traditional Gregorian Chant Pater Noster.



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raison de arizona
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Re: Religion in schools

#14

Post by raison de arizona »

Today’s lesson: geography. Pay no attention to the typo in the subtitle!
Image


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Dave from down under
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Re: Religion in schools

#15

Post by Dave from down under »

What is the yellow dot in the SE?


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scirreeve
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Re: Religion in schools

#16

Post by scirreeve »

Dave from down under wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:30 am What is the yellow dot in the SE?
IDK - this map is nonsense.


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Suranis
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Re: Religion in schools

#17

Post by Suranis »

Dave from down under wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:30 am What is the yellow dot in the SE?
Its the thumbtack that holds the map onto your screen.


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Re: Religion in schools

#18

Post by Dave from down under »

:doh:

I thought that it was that meat processing factory that employs a large number of immigrants/refugees...


Atticus Finch
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Re: Religion in schools

#19

Post by Atticus Finch »

My county in southern Nevada which includes Las Vegas has no color. Atheistism?


You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.
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Suranis
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Re: Religion in schools

#20

Post by Suranis »

Or they worship the Kardashians.


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Re: Religion in schools

#21

Post by Flatpoint High »

Religion has always been schools. just not as overt as "they" would like. got kicked out of chorus for refusing to sing Christ mas carols.


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noblepa
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Re: Religion in schools

#22

Post by noblepa »

Flatpoint High wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:56 pm Religion has always been schools. just not as overt as "they" would like. got kicked out of chorus for refusing to sing Christ mas carols.
That is certainly your right, and I respect you for standing up for your principles.

However, I believe that the courts have ruled that Christmas is as much a secular holiday as it is a religious one, and that the singing of Christmas Carols is not forbidden, as long as the performance does not become an overt promotion of Christianity.

By contrast, I used to help my wife with a pre-school religion program ("Sunday school") at our Catholic church. The church discouraged the singing of Christmas Carols and virtually forbade any discussion of Santa Claus. They preferred to keep the focus on the religious theme of the day, rather than the secular, commercial circus that it has become. In the priest's eyes, Easter was the more important holiday.


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Re: Religion in schools

#23

Post by Flatpoint High »

noblepa wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:20 pm
Flatpoint High wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:56 pm Religion has always been schools. just not as overt as "they" would like. got kicked out of chorus for refusing to sing Christ mas carols.
That is certainly your right, and I respect you for standing up for your principles.

However, I believe that the courts have ruled that Christmas is as much a secular holiday as it is a religious one, and that the singing of Christmas Carols is not forbidden, as long as the performance does not become an overt promotion of Christianity.
Christianity has always been sublty "taught" in Public Schools. As. Jew, I was acutely aware that I as a non-Christian didn't count.


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Re: Religion in schools

#24

Post by northland10 »

That may be a bit of an overgeneralization. Not every school was that way. I actually don't recall even "subtle" teaching of Christianity in school (I was raised Quaker so would likely notice more Christian teaching in the school than others). Most school Christmas carols were very much secular ones, bordering on pagan traditions (snow, bells, trees). Though not as much as around the north shore of the Chicago area, we all knew our friends who celebrated high holy days (and this was in Dutch Reformed west Michigan though not in the strongest areas). I understand other schools were different but not all schools were subtly teaching to exclude those of other traditions. Even in the 80s, we had folks of different traditions and tried to treat them the same (yes a few idiots did not but yeah, they were idiots).

Nowadays, many schools have limited Christian holiday recognition much more than when I was growing up.

I tend to agree with Noblepa's statement Christmas now being more of a secular holiday. Shoot, there is a bunch of the right trying to preserve the secular holiday of the New Sun. They are all wound up in "defending Christmas" but they are into defending Christmas trees, displays, saying "Merry Christmas" and so on. A bunch cancels Sunday morning services if Christmas falls on a Sunday. What happened to celebrate the incarnation, God with us? That seems to be nowhere in their great defense. They are defending their traditions, not the coming of Christ. God coming to be among us, as one of us, is foreign to their thinking. They want a God and Christ ruling from on high and telling them they are right.

Yeah, I come from a liturgical tradition that spends December celebrating Advent (season of anticipation and preparation) and not singing any carol (which, in the true definition was a song not sung in church) until Christmas Eve, after sundown (i.e. Hebrew tradition of the day starting at sundown).

Despite the right's screaming of Christmas, the true greatest holiday in the Christian tradition is Pascha (or the pagan God's name we reappropriated, Easter). Christmas is a holiday come lately and from time to time, it got banned by the Church (including the late Victorian era) because the people would go overboard with their secular celebrations. Sound familiar?


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Re: Religion in schools

#25

Post by MN-Skeptic »

My brother and his wife are very Christian. Not over the top, but close. Anyway, they home schooled their four daughters and decided from the beginning the Halloween would NOT be a holiday they participated in.

I find that funny to contrast with my husband’s upbringing. He grew up in a very small Iowa town, going to the local Catholic grade school through 8th grade. For Halloween, the kids did not go trick or treating. Instead there was always some kind of party with treats for them at the Catholic elementary school.


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