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Keepers of the Oaf (Oath Keepers) Elmer Stewart Rhodes etc.

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Kendra
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Keepers of the Oaf (Oath Keepers) Elmer Stewart Rhodes etc.

#526

Post by Kendra »

Meanwhile at Fox News (The Five)...turned the channel from wall-to-wall MSNBC coverage and they're talking about a woman suing Velveeta over mac and cheese prep time. For realz.

Now I'll mosey over to CNN, hope they get Officer Dunn and Michael Fanone on the air.
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#527

Post by bob »

realist wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:50 pm All guilty of obstruction but not guilty on conspiracy to obstruct. So they all just decided on their own to obstruct? :confuzzled:
My WAG is insufficient evidence of the agreement to obstruct. (So: yes.)
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#528

Post by pipistrelle »

realist wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:50 pm
pipistrelle wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:39 pm I don't understand the distribution of some of the verdicts but I wasn't there (at the trial).
Ditto.

All guilty of obstruction but not guilty on conspiracy to obstruct. So they all just decided on their own to obstruct? :confuzzled:
That's part of what threw me off.
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#529

Post by pipistrelle »

bob wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:57 pm
realist wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:50 pm All guilty of obstruction but not guilty on conspiracy to obstruct. So they all just decided on their own to obstruct? :confuzzled:
My WAG is insufficient evidence of the agreement to obstruct. (So: yes.)
I agree but still.
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Keepers of the Oaf (Oath Keepers) Elmer Stewart Rhodes etc.

#530

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

November 28:

https://lawandcrime.com/oath-keepers-ja ... onspiracy/
Jurors Have Questions About the Justice Department’s Most Serious Count in the Oath Keepers Trial: Seditious Conspiracy


Mehta brought the jury back in to the courtroom and offered a clarifying instruction.

“The seditious conspiracy charge alleges as one of its two objects to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the U.S. by force. The law of the U.S. for purposes of this charge are the laws governing the presidential transfer of power[.]”

Mehta cited the 12th Amendment of the Constitution, which says the winner of the Electoral College wins the presidential election, and the U.S. Code section mandating that Congress certify the Electoral College votes on Jan. 6.

Mehta then referred the jurors to the jury instructions, particularly page 24, which provides more detailed definitions of the statute’s text and emphasizes: “An agreement to merely violate the law is not sufficient.”
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#531

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

Closing argument by prosecutor about seditious conspiracy:
Nestler told the jury that in order to sort out whether the defendants are guilty of seditious conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt, they must understand: they do not have to establish there was a concrete plan.

The defense’s reiteration to this point has been a “colossal waste of time,” Nestleradded.

To find the defendants guilty, the jury must establish whether there was a mutual understanding or agreement.

“That’s what a conspiracy is,” Nestler said before quickly reminding jurors that it was Jessica Watkins who barked into her walkie-talkie on Jan. 6 that she was “sticking to the plan” while storming the Capitol.

Further, to prove guilt, the government is not required to show that conspirators had a written or oral agreement nor does the government need to prove that the conspirators were aware of every detail or even agreed about every detail of a conspiracy.

“To be clear, the evidence has shown you the defendants did have an express agreement. An express agreement to oppose by force if necessary the lawful transfer of power. But you can find these defendants guilty without even finding an explicit agreement, implicit will also suffice,” he said.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/1 ... ry-s-hands
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#532

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

bob wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:16 pm
Gupwalla wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:13 pm My understanding (from the judge after the more recent case) was that attorneys want to know what evidence or arguments the jurors found especially convincing one way or another. It’s part of the litigators’ ongoing personal development - how to become a better trial lawyer.
:yeahthat:

And, on a more human level, some jurors want to talk about their experiences, even if just to thank one side or berate the other; it can be cathartic.
:yeahthat:
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#533

Post by humblescribe »

Omitted in all the accounts:

Were Elmer and his Merry Men remanded into custody pending sentencing, or were they released on bond until sentencing?

Also, too: Will the charges be stacked or be served consecutively? These are horrific and heinous crimes. Concurrent sentences really do not address the gravity of their actions.

I wonder if their defense counsel will offer up a 6-month stay at a halfway house and 90 days' probation for these seditionists. (Sarcasm, but it seems of late that sentencing recommendations from defense counsel are risible.)
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#534

Post by realist »

bob wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:57 pm
realist wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:50 pm All guilty of obstruction but not guilty on conspiracy to obstruct. So they all just decided on their own to obstruct? :confuzzled:
My WAG is insufficient evidence of the agreement to obstruct. (So: yes.)
Not sure about insufficient evidence. It seems it is exceedingly difficult to convince juries that there does not have to be actual in-person talk and agreement to constitute conspiracy - ala Malheur and the Bundys.
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#535

Post by bob »

humblescribe wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:33 pm Were Elmer and his Merry Men remanded into custody pending sentencing, or were they released on bond until sentencing?
IIRC, they all had been detained pending trial.

I doubt they'll even ask to be released pending sentencing and appeal.

* * *
realist wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:42 pm Not sure about insufficient evidence. It seems it is exceedingly difficult to convince juries that there does not have to be actual in-person talk and agreement to constitute conspiracy - ala Malheur and the Bundys.
We're basically saying the same thing. An agreement can be inferred from actions, but I could see a juror saying there wasn't sufficient evidence of an agreement -- because they didn't perform the "correct" incantation.
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#536

Post by Kendra »


Just saw Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn (
@libradunn
) at
@uscapitol
tree lighting. He had just witnessed the Rhodes guilty verdict for Seditious Conspiracy. I’m so happy for Harry and every officer from January 6 that they’re witnessing justice come to roost.
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#537

Post by Gupwalla »

humblescribe wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:33 pm Omitted in all the accounts:

Were Elmer and his Merry Men remanded into custody pending sentencing, or were they released on bond until sentencing?
Four of the five were detained throughout the proceedings, and the judge ruled that they should remain behind bars pending sentencing.

The fifth - Caldwell - was out on bond, and I think he gets to stay bonded until sentencing. CNN didn’t say otherwise so that is my inference.
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#538

Post by pipistrelle »

"every officer" except those who died.
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#539

Post by bob »

Gupwalla wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:59 pm The fifth - Caldwell - was out on bond, and I think he gets to stay bonded until sentencing. CNN didn’t say otherwise so that is my inference.
Correct about Caldwell: BuzzFeed News (in 2021): An Alleged Leader In The Capitol Attacks Can Go Home As He Awaits Trial:
Thomas Caldwell and eight members of the Oath Keepers are accused of conspiring in the Jan. 6 insurrection.

A federal judge ruled Friday that Thomas Caldwell, who allegedly conspired with members of the Oath Keepers to storm the Capitol on Jan. 6, can be released from jail and go home while his case is pending.

Caldwell, 66, who has back pain that he says is exacerbated by detention, was not among the members of the Oath Keepers who stormed the Capitol. US District Judge Amit Mehta said there is no direct evidence that he planned to enter the building. He also noted that Caldwell had cooperated with FBI agents when they came to interview him.

* * *

In sometimes colorful filings, Caldwell’s attorney has pushed back on the notion that his client was part of a conspiracy or that he had intended to cause violence. In a motion filed this week, attorney David Fischer argued that his client’s “‘locker room’ talk and male bravado … was not intended for public consumption, was likely done under the influence of prescription painkillers, and didn’t result in him committing one act of violence—on January 6th or before.” The filing said that Caldwell had “double-dog dared” the government to prove a conspiracy and it had failed to do so.
Which goes back to the conspiracy acquittal: maybe the jury didn't believe this "locker-room talk" :roll: didn't rise to the level of an agreement (even though his later acts sure seemed to indicate agreement).
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#540

Post by bob »

Lawfare: Seditious Kvetching: The Surprisingly Non-Trivial Defense in the Oath Keepers Prosecution:
So what’s the defense?

In two words: No plan.

Despite having sifted through thousands of Signal, Facebook, and text messages extracted from dozens of seized phones; having been provided by an informant with a recording of one of their secret GoToMeetings (a videoconferencing app); having debriefed scores of witnesses, including seven Oath Keepers who pleaded guilty—and, amongst those, three who specifically pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy—the government never produced evidence of any Oath Keeper plan to breach the Capitol on Jan. 6 or, for that matter, any concrete plan of any kind laying out precisely how they would block Biden from taking power.
Which may be an interesting take on why some weren't convicted.

The article also notes the defendants weren't similarly situated: some of them weren't privy to the most seditiony chats.
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Keepers of the Oaf (Oath Keepers) Elmer Stewart Rhodes etc.

#541

Post by Ben-Prime »

I think for most of us, it's enough or nearly enough that all of them are guilty on, near as I can tell, at least two felony counts.

At least, it is for me.
But the sunshine aye shall light the sky,
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.

- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
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#542

Post by Kendra »

Ben-Prime wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:12 am I think for most of us, it's enough or nearly enough that all of them are guilty on, near as I can tell, at least two felony counts.

At least, it is for me.
Me too. Plus, I heard several talking heads yesterday note that this is a sign the DC jurors are taking this seriously and not rubber stamping the guilty verdicts and going home.
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Kendra
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#543

Post by Kendra »

Has anyone seen a mention on any Fox newscast of yesterday's verdict? I watched a good hour or more of the more *serious* newscasts, and crickets. Went to their website and no headlines, so I searched. Dunno what the 9 hours ago in DC category is, I didn't see anything there.
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Kendra
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#544

Post by Kendra »

Jury selection for the trial of the second group of OathKeepers seditious conspiracy defendants could begin as early as TUESDAY

Standby....
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#545

Post by humblescribe »

Shouldn't he have written, "Stand back, and stand by?"

Weren't those the words uttered by a certain presidential candidate two years ago (when asked about the Proud Boys) in his victorious debate against the ultimate winner of the election?

Asking for an amigo.
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#546

Post by Kendra »


Oath Keeper James BEEKS (formerly of Jesus Christ, Superstar fame) is a 'sovereign citizen' who is now seeking to represent himself at his upcoming trial. Judge Mehta must be thrilled.
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#547

Post by Slim Cognito »

humblescribe wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:12 pm Shouldn't he have written, "Stand back, and stand by?"

....
That would have been . . . Awesome!
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#548

Post by somerset »

bob wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:50 pm
humblescribe wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:33 pm Were Elmer and his Merry Men remanded into custody pending sentencing, or were they released on bond until sentencing?
IIRC, they all had been detained pending trial.

I doubt they'll even ask to be released pending sentencing and appeal.

* * *
Speaking of sentencing, any idea why the judge did not set a sentencing date after the guilty verdicts? Is it common to hold off sentencing if the verdicts are going to be appealed and the defendants are in custody?
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#549

Post by Fiascoist »

No appeal until after sentencing and the standard motion for new trial(not necessary except to your ins carrier). Remember Kenny Lay who died before sentencing so he was found guilty but no sentencing judgment happened so no judgment.
And there will be a presentence report extolling what patriots these people are (NOT). Then appeal. If the sentences are shorter than the prison time AND the judge thinks they got a raw deal (but not so raw to grant a new trial and they are medical messes) they might not have to start serving their time. They will get credit for current time. And Caldwell may not have to report for a few months, but the others do Monopoly go to jail card. Yeah!!!!
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#550

Post by Kendra »



Still watching. H/T to Scott Klatt on FB.
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