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Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

These people are weird, but we like to find out what weird people are doing and thinking. It's a hobby.
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pipistrelle
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1801

Post by pipistrelle »

I get it. A duly appointed jury found the prosecution didn’t make its case and therefore justice was done. (I would not be surprised if the deliberations included, “I don’t wanna be the guy who puts that poor child in prison with gangbangers, pedophiles, rapists, and murderers. Nope. Not gonna do it.”)

But as a IANAL, here’s my common man approach.

Some crimes and criminals are obvious and a cakewalk for a jury, e.g., the guy who robs a bank with a gun, with his face clearly visible to security cameras and his fingerprints all over everything. I imagine a lot of those don’t make it to a jury, but if they did it’s not going to go well for the defendant.

There are cases where we may never know for various reasons, e.g., the Black Dahlia murder. Several suspects, not much solid against any one.

Then there’s this case with two dead, one maimed, and no argument who pulled the trigger. The prosecution didn’t convince the jury that it wasn’t self-defense, or the defense convinced them it was.

Yet, once Rosenbaum was down on the first shot, Our Fearful Hero shot him THREE more times, the last one in the back killing him. That’s outright murder. Did Our Fearful Hero/faux medic render assistance? Did our Fearful Hero set down his gun and surrender? No, he whipped out his phone, called someone, and went off to kill and maim some more. The verdict validates that’s legal and fine.

So with Trump and his minions not facing consequences and other verdicts like the Bundy Oregon one where taking over a refuge and vandalizing it for weeks is fine, yes, there’s a sense that the legal system has been weakened by the populism movement and the rule of law means nothing. It just depends on whether the accused is one of my people or one of the pedophile evil liberals. Populism and strongmen leaders try to break down the rule of law, and so far it looks like they're doing a damn good job.

So now we have two dead men and a maimed one, and no one held accountable for it. Let's move on like that's as normal as a pretend medic walking around with his toy and shooting people multiple times.

(We'll see how the other case turns out.)

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1802

Post by Dave from down under »

Foggy wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:53 pm So, umm ... where's the mob at, huh? :smoking:
Celebrating their hero's release..
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1803

Post by TheNewSaint »

If an American ANTIFA existed, I'd be a member of it. The first four letters of that stand for "anti-fascist." That seems like a noble goal to me. Isn't America supposed to be anti-fascist? Didn't we go to war to stop fascism? How did it become such a dirty word in this country? And if you're opposed to anti-fascism, then what does that suggest you're in favor of?
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Suranis
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1804

Post by Suranis »

Well, like anything else, the right wing stole their phantom enemies name from a group of Austrian Communists that fought the Austrian nazi party in the 1930s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion
Antifaschistische Aktion

This article is about the organisation in the Weimar Republic. For the later movement it inspired, see Antifa (Germany).

Antifaschistische Aktion (German: [ˌantifaˈʃɪstɪʃə ʔakˈtsi̯oːn]) was a militant anti-fascist organisation in the Weimar Republic started by members of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) that existed from 1932 to 1933. It was primarily active as a KPD campaign during the 1932 German federal elections and was described by the KPD as a "red united front under the leadership of the only anti-fascist party, the KPD."[1]

In the postwar era, the historical organisation inspired new groups and networks, known as the wider antifa movement, many of which use the aesthetics of Antifaschistische Aktion, especially the antifa moniker and a modified version of its logo. During the Cold War, Antifaschistische Aktion had a dual legacy in East Germany and West Germany, respectively. In East Germany, it was considered part of the history and heritage of the KPD's successor, the Socialist Unity Party of Germany. In West Germany, its aesthetics and name were embraced by Maoists and later autonomists from the 1970s.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1805

Post by Maybenaut »

When it comes to self-defense, the burden is often on the prosecution.

This was a headline in the New York Times. It reflects a fundamental misunderstanding about how the law works.

When it comes to self defense, or anything else in a criminal trial, the burden is always* on the prosecution.

* The only exception is the insanity defense.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1806

Post by andersweinstein »

Tucker Carlson to interview Rittenhouse on Monday.

Carlson has apparently been filming documentary on Rittenhouse with behind-the-scenes through the trial. Teaser you can find shows Rittenhouse reacting after verdict in limo drive away from courthouse and talking about his PTSD nightmares.

Since I never thought he was any kind of hero to be lauded, it's a shame to me he has to exist this way within the right-wing media ecosystem. But it's on the right where he'll be cheered.

Edit to add:

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1807

Post by Dave from down under »

Birds of a feather..
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1808

Post by bob »

The Bad Legal Takes Twitter account has been working overtime today.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1809

Post by neonzx »

Ben-Prime wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:05 pm Once again, The Onion takes the lead.

https://www.theonion.com/kyle-rittenhou ... 1848090682
rittenhouse-cpac.jpg
rittenhouse-cpac.jpg (140.26 KiB) Viewed 701 times
Sorry, I had to.... I could not stop laughing.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1810

Post by busterbunker »

I'm underwhelmed by the lack of response from the FSLA. They blew a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to redefine Black Friday. Maybe they couldn't brave the brutal weather. It was like drizzling over here. Pretty nasty.

Or maybe it takes 24-hour notice to rent a U-Haul. And the Flat Screen Liberation Army will mobilize tomorrow!
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1811

Post by tek »

Rittenhouse attorney Mark Richards tells @ChrisCuomo that he was against it: "I did not approve of that. I threw them out of the room several times..."
Totally believable.
/s
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1812

Post by Dave from down under »

tek wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:42 am
Rittenhouse attorney Mark Richards tells @ChrisCuomo that he was against it: "I did not approve of that. I threw them out of the room several times..."
Totally believable.
/s
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1813

Post by bill_g »

Wisconsin God Damn

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1814

Post by ZinWhit »

McNabb and Pitcavage have nothing to say about the verdict.

Not surprised.

The most disappointing thing to me about the verdict was a 'jury of peers," meaning this is today's Amerikkka.
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Suranis
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1815

Post by Suranis »

Just a thought. If the Judge instructions said that the Jury does not agree they must have put forward a motion of not guilty, and there was one brainwashed holdout in the Jury room who would never vote guilty, then that would explain the long deliberation and the verdict. It would also explain why one juror took the instructions home to really look through them the final night. That shows they were an issue.

Granted I have no idea what was in the jury instructions, but it is a thought that occurred to me.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1816

Post by noblepa »

Just as in the OJ Simpson case, the prosecution blew this case, big time.

While it is the jury that determines guilt or innocence, the way the prosecutor kept pissing off the judge had to have affected the jury.

I'm not sure that he should have been convicted of murder, but my problem is this:

He was in a place he had no business being . . .

With a weapon he had no business having . . .

Doing something (allegedly guarding a car dealership) that he had no business doing . . .

And someone died because of the above.

There should have been SOME culpability.

My fear is that the RWNJs will take this verdict as condoning violence.

Wisconsin's law, as I understand it, allows minors to have long guns. The reasoning is that they can go hunting with their fathers, uncles or friends. Fine, but the law should be tightened up to say that minors can only have such guns when they are actually hunting, and only under the supervision of an adult. Neither of those conditions applied to Rittenhouse that night. Well, maybe he was hunting . . .

If I were the owner of the car dealership, I would be sweating bullets. When the wrongful death lawsuit is filed, and it will be filed, he is almost certain to be one of the named defendants.

If the jury believes Rittenhouse's claim that the owner hired untrained, unlicensed teenagers to guard his dealership and that someone died because of it, his ass is toast.

Caveat: IANAL
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1817

Post by pipistrelle »

He shot Rosenbaum three times after he was down. That sealed it for me.

The judge’s happiness over the verdict may explain a little of his unhappiness with the prosecution.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1818

Post by humblescribe »

For what it is worth, very little no doubt:

The verdict disappointed me deeply. I wonder what the verdict(s) would have been if

(a) Rittenhouse did not raise all that $$$ online and had to rely upon a public defender; and/or

(b) The county assigned a different trial judge who was less sympathetic to the defendant and who knew what rulings would be sustained upon appeal; and/or

(c) The trial were held in a more urban setting like Milwaukee or Madison had the crimes incidents occurred there instead of Kenosha.

It seems to me that our legal system at times can be totally random.

In high school civics 50+ years ago we were taught how wonderful and fair our court system is. How justice is blind. What I learned over the decades that justice may be blind, but the lawyers and judges can still manipulate the other four senses to effect the outcome they want. This trial more or less cemented my belief.

I am by nature and profession a skeptic when it comes to a person having absolute unfettered and unchecked power like a judge. It would not surprise me in the least that this trial judge has a deep dark secret about this defendant or his elk or defense counsel that he will take to his grave.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1819

Post by Gregg »

TheNewSaint wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:23 pm If an American ANTIFA existed, I'd be a member of it. The first four letters of that stand for "anti-fascist." That seems like a noble goal to me. Isn't America supposed to be anti-fascist? Didn't we go to war to stop fascism? How did it become such a dirty word in this country? And if you're opposed to anti-fascism, then what does that suggest you're in favor of?
ANTIFA, old school

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1820

Post by Gregg »

Suranis wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:38 pm Just a thought. If the Judge instructions said that the Jury does not agree they must have put forward a motion of not guilty, and there was one brainwashed holdout in the Jury room who would never vote guilty, then that would explain the long deliberation and the verdict. It would also explain why one juror took the instructions home to really look through them the final night. That shows they were an issue.

Granted I have no idea what was in the jury instructions, but it is a thought that occurred to me.
Truth. I would have wanted to take home Jury Instructions so I could photocopy them for my book.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1821

Post by Gregg »

In high school civics 50+ years ago we were taught how wonderful and fair our court system is. How justice is blind. What I learned over the decades that justice may be blind, but the lawyers and judges can still manipulate the other four senses to effect the outcome they want. This trial more or less cemented my belief.
Justice is blind so attorneys can rob her blind when everyone else sees she's being robbed.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1822

Post by ZinWhit »

humblescribe wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:03 pm For what it is worth, very little no doubt:

The verdict disappointed me deeply. I wonder what the verdict(s) would have been if

(a) Rittenhouse did not raise all that $$$ online and had to rely upon a public defender; and/or

(b) The county assigned a different trial judge who was less sympathetic to the defendant and who knew what rulings would be sustained upon appeal; and/or

(c) The trial were held in a more urban setting like Milwaukee or Madison had the crimes incidents occurred there instead of Kenosha.
(d) The chair in which the Judge sits were not a political office. In this case, the judge elected rather than appointed. He is a politician, the law inherently political.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1823

Post by Suranis »

I had someone on Facebook call him a "democrat" at me. A bit of research showed he was appointed by a Democratic Gov in 1983, but has been elected ever since. He's the longest serving judge still serving in WI.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1824

Post by LM K »

pipistrelle wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:36 pm He shot Rosenbaum three times after he was down. That sealed it for me.

The judge’s happiness over the verdict may explain a little of his unhappiness with the prosecution.
Me too. I don't know if I would vote for intentional felony murder, but lesser degree would be a yes vote. I'd have to hear what my fellow jury members thought about intentional felony murder.

Rosenbaum didn't need to be shot 4 times. That first gunshot wasn't likely to be fatal and was not the shot that did kill him
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#1825

Post by noblepa »

Suranis wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:11 pm I had someone on Facebook call him a "democrat" at me. A bit of research showed he was appointed by a Democratic Gov in 1983, but has been elected ever since. He's the longest serving judge still serving in WI.
Are judges elected in partisan elections in Wisconsin? IOW, does the ballot indicate a party?

In Ohio, if I remember the last election where judges were on the ballot, it did not indicate D or R. That doesn't mean that judges aren't politicians. It just means that the voters have a harder time voting a straight party-line ticket, since they may not know which party a particular judge belongs to.

In Cuyahoga County (Cleveland), most of the judges are named O'Malley or Russo. Those are two long-time political dynasties that have dominated our politics for generations. I'm sure that they get a lot of votes simply based on name recognition. That's not to say that they're bad judges.
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