Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

[pipistrelle]

...the standard is what a person of ordinary intelligence and prudence

.

A person of ordinary intelligence and prudence stays home and doesn’t kill and injure people.

[bob]

Since you're apparently an attorney, perhaps you can define "reasonable belief" for us who aren't.

That poster isn't an attorney.

* * *

Maybe I'm not following the line of reasoning, but if the above self-defense story holds up, could we see this scenario?

Kid with illegal gun claims to be afraid because unarmed somebody mouths off to him as they move towards him so he shoots said somebody. The rest of the unarmed group moves towards the armed kid hoping to disarm him before he shoots someone else, or escapes into the night. Now armed kid is justified in shooting everyone else?

It is possible, but, assuming this went to trial, the shooter's beliefs would have to be both honest and reasonable. There would be important issues like how far away was the mouther-offer, what were their movements like, etc.

Complicating matters is whether the jurisdiction has a duty to escape (before using force) and whether escape was possible.

[RVInit]

What do you say about the actions of mob who pursued him in that case, in which the mob was completely mistaken? Do you think the mob was going to give him any possible chance before attacking him with some level of force? Do you think he could be sure they were only going to use a legal level of force? Was there a chance they might collectively have kicked and beaten him to a pulp once they disarmed him?

Oh the irony…

He wasn't justified in shooting a man who was armed with an empty plastic bag.

[Gregg]

I was just walking home from church, minding my own business and not hurting anyone, just a harmless innocent boy with my AR-15, when....

[Dave from down under]

I was just walking home from church, minding my own business and not hurting anyone, just a harmless innocent boy with my AR-15, when....

Being in a stand you ground concealed carry state I saw a person who I had every reasonable reason to believe was armed (concealed pistol), and they looked to me to be threatening and so I was justified in defending myself by shooting them before they could draw and shoot me.

From there things got a bit hazy..
there was screams, and blood, then lots more screams and more blood, with me shooting more threatening men, women, children and then those Antifa dressed in blue…

[Wendybird]

andersweinstein wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:31 am
What do you say about the actions of mob who pursued him in that case, in which the mob was completely mistaken? Do you think the mob was going to give him any possible chance before attacking him with some level of force? Do you think he could be sure they were only going to use a legal level of force? Was there a chance they might collectively have kicked and beaten him to a pulp once they disarmed him?

Wait, was there a mob after him? Who was part of this mob?

[Dave from down under]

Anders has almost convinced me that their should be a mob to deal with Kyle and his apologists.

[neeneko]

Yeah, 'mob' is a rather loaded word in this case. A number of unarmed civilians attempted to disarm an active shooter. Normally they would be praised up and down as heroes if not for the political positions.

[June bug]

Beyond the word "mob", let's not forget the other loaded words and the number of (at least as of yet) completely unproven conclusions in just this paragraph:

It was a tragic outcome. But they made a very hasty false judgment against him and then acted violently on it. He was not threatening anyone as he tried to get to the police. They were essentially acting out of prejudice against him like a gang because he looked like he was on the "other" side and had shot someone they thought was one of "theirs". If they had only left him alone, the kid could have gotten to the police.

So "they" made false judgments - acted violently - with prejudice - like a gang. And to wrap it up - oh, if only they had let that young innocent alone everything would have been fine.

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

...the standard is what a person of ordinary intelligence and prudence

.

A person of ordinary intelligence and prudence stays home and doesn’t kill and injure people.

Nor does a person of ordinary intelligence and prudence buy a gun illegally, then use said gun against a plastic bag throwing person.

[neeneko]

It was a tragic outcome. But they made a very hasty false judgment against him and then acted violently on it. He was not threatening anyone as he tried to get to the police. They were essentially acting out of prejudice against him like a gang because he looked like he was on the "other" side and had shot someone they thought was one of "theirs". If they had only left him alone, the kid could have gotten to the police.

Yeah, but how often does an active shooter decide to stop and then calmly walk over to the police to turn themselves in. Usually they keep shooting people. If the crowd had not disarmed him, Kyle might have started shooting again too. We only have his word that he was 'done', as long as no one else scared him I guess.

[Sam the Centipede]

Yeah, but how often does an active shooter decide to stop and then calmly walk over to the police to turn themselves in. Usually they keep shooting people. If the crowd had not disarmed him, Kyle might have started shooting again too. We only have his word that he was 'done', as long as no one else scared him I guess.

Indeed, although it would be a novel defense: "I'm a double murderer, not a mass murderer."

As you suggest, there is no reason to suppose that someone who kills others apparently for amusement would be telling the truth about what he might have done in a hypothetical future. Well done those who stopped his lethal violence.

I'm generally not in favor of capital punishment, but it wouldn't grieve me to know that that evil turd had found karma.

[Dave from down under]

I must admit Anders posts have been very effective.

If his arguments were presented at trial - there is sure to be a mistrial as the jury becomes a violent howling mob demanding that Kyle be treated as he treated his victims.

[neeneko]

As you suggest, there is no reason to suppose that someone who kills others apparently for amusement would be telling the truth about what he might have done in a hypothetical future. Well done those who stopped his lethal violence.

Eh, I do not think anything that has come out really points to doing it for 'amusement'. Wanting to be a hero? Sure. But it really sounds more reality colliding with fantasy, panicking, and then killing out of fear. Like many of these 'warriors' he wanted to look strong and be praised, it does not really sound like he was intending to kill, just assert dominance... and when that failed, he backed it up with, well, killing. Still a bad outcome, but not intent.

[andersweinstein]

It was a tragic outcome. But they made a very hasty false judgment against him and then acted violently on it. He was not threatening anyone as he tried to get to the police. They were essentially acting out of prejudice against him like a gang because he looked like he was on the "other" side and had shot someone they thought was one of "theirs". If they had only left him alone, the kid could have gotten to the police.

Yeah, but how often does an active shooter decide to stop and then calmly walk over to the police to turn themselves in. Usually they keep shooting people. If the crowd had not disarmed him, Kyle might have started shooting again too. We only have his word that he was 'done', as long as no one else scared him I guess.

Yeah. Or maybe he was never an "active shooter" at all. Evidence for that is feeble or non-existent.

Another hypothesis is that he was a scared kid who got attacked, ran, shot in self-defense, then tried to get to police. That makes a lot more sense of what we see. For example him always trying to flee from confrontation until others forced it upon him, him making a beeline to the police whose lights everyone could see, him never threatening much less shooting anyone who didn't attack him.

[bob]

Or maybe he was never an "active shooter" at all. Evidence for that is feeble or non-existent.

Other than the shots and dead people, of course.

That makes a lot more sense of what we see.

Who is this "we" for which you speak?

[Maybenaut]

Or maybe he was never an "active shooter" at all. Evidence for that is feeble or non-existent.

Other than the shots and dead people, of course.

That makes a lot more sense of what we see.

Who is this "we" for which you speak?

I was just going to say that.

FWIW, if I had shot someone by accident, or even in self defense, I’d probably drop my gun, fall to the ground, and curl up in a little ball crying for my Mom. If I had more presence of mind than to do that, I’d probably call 911.

[Dave from down under]

Another hypothesis is that he was a scared kid….

Which is why it was illegal for Kyle to be armed.

Criminal with illegal firearm goes looking for a conflict, shoots 3, killing 2.

[Slim Cognito]

For example him always trying to flee from confrontation until others forced it upon him, him making a beeline to the police whose lights everyone could see

I'm not the sharpest person in the room, but considering he walked past the police and went home, I'm not buying it.

[neonzx]

Another hypothesis is that he was a scared kid….

Which is why it was illegal for Kyle to be armed.

Criminal with illegal firearm goes looking for a conflict, shoots 3, killing 2.

It was not illegal for him to have and open carry (thank you muked-up Wisconsin constitution -- crazy place)

Yeah, he was a scared kid -- lacking in both physical and emotional maturity. It's sad.

[Dave from down under]

For example him always trying to flee from confrontation until others forced it upon him, him making a beeline to the police whose lights everyone could see

I'm not the sharpest person in the room, but considering he walked past the police and went home, I'm not buying it.

But Kyle’s defence is he was justified in doing what he did.

So why would he need to surrender to the police when he committed no crime!

[Dave from down under]

Another hypothesis is that he was a scared kid….

Which is why it was illegal for Kyle to be armed.

Criminal with illegal firearm goes looking for a conflict, shoots 3, killing 2.

It was not illegal for him to have and open carry (thank you muked-up Wisconsin constitution -- crazy place)

Yeah, he was a scared kid -- lacking in both physical and emotional maturity. It's sad.

Has the possession charge been dropped?
——-
The complaint against Rittenhouse lists six charges:
first-degree reckless homicide against Joseph Rosenbaum
first-degree recklessly endangering safety against Richard McGinnis (a reporter who interviewed Rittenhouse before the shooting)[64]
first-degree intentional homicide against Anthony Huber
attempted first-degree intentional homicide against Gaige Grosskreutz
first-degree recklessly endangering safety against an unknown male victim
possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18 (the only misdemeanor charge, the others are felonies)
——

[bob]

Has the possession charge been dropped?

Tentatively, no. But the judge said he might rule otherwise (due to the statute's less-than-crystal clarity).

[andersweinstein]

For example him always trying to flee from confrontation until others forced it upon him, him making a beeline to the police whose lights everyone could see

I'm not the sharpest person in the room, but considering he walked past the police and went home, I'm not buying it.

He walked toward the police with hands up, looking for all the world like someone trying to surrender. Police ordered him to get out of the way and moved on to look after the injured. It's a very dramatic moment, but it was the preoccupied police who rejected his surrender attempt. His friend drove him back to Antioch IL and he went with his mother to turn himself in at the police station there a short time later.

[sugar magnolia]

Or maybe he was never an "active shooter" at all. Evidence for that is feeble or non-existent.

Other than the shots and dead people, of course.

That makes a lot more sense of what we see.

Who is this "we" for which you speak?

I was just going to say that.

FWIW, if I had shot someone by accident, or even in self defense, I’d probably drop my gun, fall to the ground, and curl up in a little ball crying for my Mom. If I had more presence of mind than to do that, I’d probably call 911.

You may not even realize how fucking accurate that description is. Just reading it brought up a vivid mental image in my memory of exactly what clothing the abused wife was wearing when she shot her husband and was curled up in that same ball on the floor crying for her mother. That happened at least 20 years ago and it's still seared in my brain.