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Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

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keith
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#351

Post by keith »

covfefe wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:36 am Personally I find that comparison laughable and offensive.
The strawman is strong in this one. He should be careful that his straw doesnt catch fire from the gaslight he's carrying.
Has everybody heard about the bird?
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#352

Post by andersweinstein »

Gregg wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:21 pm
andersweinstein wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:34 am
Maybenaut wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:05 am By the way, whether Rittenhouse was or was not an “active shooter” is completely meaningless. Law-enforcement uses that term to describe a guy with a gun who is currently pulling the trigger....
I'd say it denotes someone who is in the midst of a single ongoing process of deliberately shooting multiple people. ...

You're right the label is irrelevant. It came from the idea that the individuals who ran at KR were justified because disarming an active shooter.
No goddammit

Its a person,
with a gun,
who has shot at someone
who still has the gun
and might be shooting at someone else.

Until a shooter is disarmed, he is an active shooter.
I used the term in accordance with the definition in Wikipedia, and also in the ones from the FBI, and DHS that you yourself [Gregg] cite. If you read them you'll see they all refer to a very specific type of crime, not just anyone who shoots someone, but rather a type of public mass shooting. The paradigm case has victims chosen at random and very often with a shooter who will commit suicide.

On those definitions it is not correct to say that anyone who shoots and is not yet disarmed counts as "active shooter". Law enforcement follows different protocols for a hostage situation, for example, than for an active shooter situation, and this will be true even if the hostage taker has shot someone and is not yet disarmed. Someone who shoots only one person is not engaged in committing that type of crime, even if not yet disarmed. Someone who shoots in a robbery or bar fight is not engaged in committing that type of crime. Someone who shoots only in self-defense is not engaged in committing that type of crime.

Of course there can be situations where someone may be a *suspected* active shooter and treated as such. It can turn out later they were not actually engaged in committing that specific type of crime, but it could have been rational to treat them as if they were.

There does seem to be an interesting general issue here. Suppose someone shoots someone and heads away weapon in hand. Are bystanders automatically legally justified intervening and using force to disarm him, simply by virtue of the fact that he had shot someone? Can they use deadly force against him in this case? Or do they need first need some kind of additional evidence that he is a threat to shoot again? I don't think answers are so clear.

In any case, as I said, it's not the *label* that matters, it is pointless to get hung up about a *label*, if we can be clear on the underlying concept, whatever word we use for it. Rittenhouse had shot someone and was not disarmed, yes. I meant to say he was never behaving like one of those public mass shooters hunting and trying to kill victims at random in a public place.

Possibly the crowd *suspected* that he was a public mass shooter. One might argue they were rational to do so. I think one can also argue their evidence he was engaged in that specific type of crime was very poor, because his behavior never fit that of someone engaged in that type of crime.I think they judged him guilty in an instant because of tribal loyalty. More importantly, I think there was no possible way he could have convinced that crowd of his innocence in that situation. So I think it was rational of him to believe that if he didn't shoot, he would have gotten beaten up, perhaps very badly, and possibly killed by the people running at him. It may just have been a tragic situation in which each side was justified in attacking the other.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#353

Post by bill_g »

1, 2, 3, 4, (shhh ... I'm counting angels on a pinhead)
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#354

Post by Azastan »

How do bystanders know that a person with a gun who has just shot and killed someone in a crowd isn't an active shooter killing at random?

It's obvious you just want to keep arguing that shooting and killing someone is perfectly acceptable. You don't have the empathy to put yourself in the place of someone who was there, in the crowd, unarmed.

So, imagine that you were in the crowd that day. You saw someone getting shot and killed for no reason, since you didn't see any lead up to why a member of the crowd was shot and killed.

How would you react? Try to be realistic in your answer.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#355

Post by andersweinstein »

Azastan wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:02 am How do bystanders know that a person with a gun who has just shot and killed someone in a crowd isn't an active shooter killing at random?
I should say I tend to think that the mere fact that someone shot someone in this situation is not enough evidence to assume they are a mass shooter killing at random. There are many cues, obvious and subtle, about someone's posture and manner and behavior that makes a person look like they are on the prowl for additional victims and I think those were all lacking. And as I've said many times, if Rittenhouse *wanted* to shoot people at random, there were dozens and dozens of people he might have easily picked off. As far as we know he never so much as raised his rifle at anyone else.

I think he looked much more like he might be *fleeing*. The crowd looks to me like they were much more worried he would *get away* than that he was a major threat to shoot random people. I mean, Gaige Grosskreutz was not too afraid of him to engage and talk to him as he was running close behind him, captured on Grosskreutz's livestream, asking him "who shot, who shot?" while Rittenhouse turned over his shoulder and said "I'm going to get the police" plus something inaudible.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#356

Post by andersweinstein »

Azastan wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:02 am How do bystanders know that a person with a gun who has just shot and killed someone in a crowd isn't an active shooter killing at random?
I do think that's a good question, though, and I alluded to this problem myself.

But another relevant question, I think, is: how does someone who only shot in self-defense amid that crowd (predisposed to think the worst of you) get safely out of the situation? Might running to the police and telling people you are doing so while not threatening anyone else be a reasonable option?
Azastan wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:02 am It's obvious you just want to keep arguing that shooting and killing someone is perfectly acceptable.
This seems unfair. The only thing I've been relying on is the idea that shooting in self-defense can be perfectly acceptable.
Azastan wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:02 am So, imagine that you were in the crowd that day. You saw someone getting shot and killed for no reason, since you didn't see any lead up to why a member of the crowd was shot and killed.

How would you react? Try to be realistic in your answer.
I think I would try to get away from the shooting and take cover as fast as I could, as many did.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#357

Post by RVInit »

I think our new friend has only seen right wing media stories on this subject. They always forget the tiny little detail that Rittenhouse had already shot and killed someone before he was chased. And the fact that he was chased was because all those chasers had witnessed him shooting and killing a person armed with an empty plastic bag. Fox Spews starts their reporting from the point where he's running and the "attackers" are chasing the poor scared little guy who only showed up because adults refused to do what he did. So, poor Kyle HAD to do it. He just HAD to. And he was CHASED. That's where his story begins....he was chased. No mention of the first guy he had already shot.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#358

Post by Dave from down under »

If he had dropped his gun after killing the first person

Even if the other citizens there had decided to go vigilantes and beat him up for killing someone.

It is unlike that he would have been killed.

But he didn’t drop his gun
He shot 2 more people

Killing one

Wounding the other

That is what guns are for
Killing

And that is why he had one and why he shot 3 people.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#359

Post by Azastan »

RVInit wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:53 am I think our new friend has only seen right wing media stories on this subject. They always forget the tiny little detail that Rittenhouse had already shot and killed someone before he was chased. And the fact that he was chased was because all those chasers had witnessed him shooting and killing a person armed with an empty plastic bag. Fox Spews starts their reporting from the point where he's running and the "attackers" are chasing the poor scared little guy who only showed up because adults refused to do what he did. So, poor Kyle HAD to do it. He just HAD to. And he was CHASED. That's where his story begins....he was chased. No mention of the first guy he had already shot.
Yeah, Anders is down in the hole and can't really get out of it. Useless to try to convince someone like that.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#360

Post by sugar magnolia »

Yep. He keeps pulling out definitions and wikis and bits and pieces and tries to cobble them together to build his straw house. The whole argument about an active shooter only aiming randomly is a load of shit anyway. Active shooters in schools (Columbine, Pearl, etc) and work places (post office, Kroger) often target specific people and often take out random others at the same time. It's not an either/or definition.

So far in this interminable argument, people with actual real-life experience and knowledge of prosecution, defense, psychology, jury selection, law enforcement and the legal system have weighed in and not a single one of them has agreed with your perspective. Perhaps that should give you a clue.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#361

Post by roadscholar »

It should, because he's plainly clueless. Anders has a fixed conclusion, that Kyle is just a poor innocent white boy, and he is laboriously riffling through any possible argument, however baseless, to prove it.

He'll never give up. Poor, sad, pathetic man. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. :roll:
The bitterest truth is more wholesome than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#362

Post by bob »

andersweinstein wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:38 amit is pointless to get hung up about a *label*
Says the person very much hung up on a label that's irrelevant to this trial.

* * *
sugar magnolia wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:00 amActive shooters in schools (Columbine, Pearl, etc) and work places (post office, Kroger) often target specific people and often take out random others at the same time. It's not an either/or definition.
Yes, which is why even this all sounds like a bad comedy:

Dispatch: "911, what's your emergency?"
Caller: "An active shooter at the high school is killing all the jocks!"
Dispatch: "Well, actually, if the shooter is selecting targets, then it isn't an active-shooter situation."

(And when did Wikipedia become a noted legal authority?)
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#363

Post by jemcanada2 »

Yeah! After the Parkland shooting, didn’t Trump** tell his supporters to attack/shoot active shooters? That doesn’t apply if the shooter is a Trump** supporter?
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#364

Post by raison de arizona »

Dave from down under wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:58 am If he had dropped his gun after killing the first person

Even if the other citizens there had decided to go vigilantes and beat him up for killing someone.

It is unlike that he would have been killed.

But he didn’t drop his gun
He shot 2 more people

Killing one

Wounding the other

That is what guns are for
Killing

And that is why he had one and why he shot 3 people.
Seriously. We're talking about a guy aligned with militia wandering around a progressive protest turned riot with an assault style rifle slung around his neck looking for people to shoot. He literally said as much, whether it is legally admissible or not. Strangely enough, he found people to shoot. He fantasized about killing people, then he made it reality. I struggle with claiming self defense for a situation he purposely created in order to shoot people.
Prosecutors say that the video shows Rittenhouse watching some men exiting a CVS store and then commenting that he wishes he had his rifle so he could shoot them.
:snippity:
'Bro I wish I had my (expletive) AR. l'd start shooting rounds at them.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... trial.html
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#365

Post by bob »

raison de arizona wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:06 pmI struggle with claiming self defense for a situation he purposely created in order to shoot people.
In some* murder cases, self-defense (or defense of others) is common-enough defense, after SODDI (some other dude did it) and diminished actuality (God/the drugs/the twinkies made me do it).

* Many murder cases that go to trial aren't whodunits; the identification of the suspect isn't seriously contested.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#366

Post by Luke »

Is the trial going to be televised? This was all I found:
He [judge] also denied the prosecution’s request to bar the media from broadcasting or publishing images of witnesses’ faces during the trial. The prosecutor told the judge that some witnesses fear for their safety because it’s such a high-profile and contested case. Richards said he didn’t know which witnesses Binger was referring to, but he pointed out that one prosecution witness has boasted on his social-media accounts about being subpoenaed in the case.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/kyle- ... 1633694482

This would absolutely, positively be my reaction too, even the thought of it is unbearable.
FWIW, if I had shot someone by accident, or even in self defense, I’d probably drop my gun, fall to the ground, and curl up in a little ball crying for my Mom. If I had more presence of mind than to do that, I’d probably call 911.

You may not even realize how fucking accurate that description is. Just reading it brought up a vivid mental image in my memory of exactly what clothing the abused wife was wearing when she shot her husband and was curled up in that same ball on the floor crying for her mother. That happened at least 20 years ago and it's still seared in my brain.
Not really following this case, but found this article from August 2020 an interesting backgrounder.
The Conservative Defense of Kyle Rittenhouse Is Dangerous Nonsense
White Americans’ most heinous acts of violence can always be justified by their ideological allies.
BY MARK JOSEPH STERN AUG 27, 2020 5:35 PM
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... house.html
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#367

Post by andersweinstein »

orlylicious wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:36 pm Is the trial going to be televised?
Court TV announced they'll be carrying it in its entirety:

https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/co ... n-to-watch
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#368

Post by neeneko »

andersweinstein wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:53 pm Court TV announced they'll be carrying it in its entirety:
Well, there goes any chance of this trial being dignified and professional. Ok, probably being a little extreme there, but this is really gonna encourage people to play for the camera since I suspect there is a lot of future career aspirations going on here.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#369

Post by Luke »

Thanks for the info, put the app on the Kindle Fire. Worked with Stephen Brill when it started in the 90's, that was some of the earliest streaming content. Thought it just turned into TruTV, cool they relaunched it. Agree about the circus, but transparency is important. Still miffed SCOTUS hasn't joined the 21st Century.
The trial is scheduled to begin on November 1. You can watch on over-the-air channel 4.3, on cable, live-streamed on CourtTV.com, YouTube TV, Pluto TV, SiriusXM, as well as the Court TV app for Roku®, Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV and Android and Apple devices.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#370

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

I watch the trials which Court TV airs. There is commentary during trial breaks, but otherwise no interference with the court proceedings.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#371

Post by andersweinstein »

RVInit wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:53 am I think our new friend has only seen right wing media stories on this subject. They always forget the tiny little detail that Rittenhouse had already shot and killed someone before he was chased. And the fact that he was chased was because all those chasers had witnessed him shooting and killing a person armed with an empty plastic bag. Fox Spews starts their reporting from the point where he's running and the "attackers" are chasing the poor scared little guy who only showed up because adults refused to do what he did. So, poor Kyle HAD to do it. He just HAD to. And he was CHASED. That's where his story begins....he was chased. No mention of the first guy he had already shot.
As you seem to be omitting the tiny little detail that he was visibly being chased before the *first* shooting too.

For the record, I'm a very partisan Democrat. I'm pretty sure I have at least as much contempt for Fox News as you do. I definitely didn't come by my view because of right-wing media.

I watched a lot of video of the scene including before the shootings and also read some reporting and that changed my mind from what I initially assumed about this case.

The jury won't see all the same evidence -- I can't unlearn the inadmissible character evidence I know about Rosenbaum -- but that's what worked for me. I expect the jury will see *some* of it. I can't guess if it will be enough to overturn the enormous weight of preconception that exists in this case.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#372

Post by bill_g »

78,79,80,81 .... damn, lost count.

Starting over - 1,2,3 ...
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#373

Post by Dave from down under »

Bill - you could claim self defence…
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#374

Post by bob »

andersweinstein wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:17 amI can't guess if it will be enough to overturn the enormous weight of preconception that exists in this case.
"Enormous preconception." :roll:
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#375

Post by raison de arizona »

I would comment, but...
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