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The Colonization of North America

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LM K
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#26

Post by LM K »

northland10 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:38 pm Why is this argument about the "evil Catholic hierarchy" only? Multiple denominations and the government itself were mentioned yet it seems we are making sure that we must argue about the blame that must be on the Roman Catholic Church and not on Americans and Canadians in general. While he's, the various church's did wrong, so did the non-church entities and yet, we must heap blame only one segment.

The same can go with the dreadful child abuse. Yes, the Roman Catholics did extremely poorly and will have to recon with this for a long time but they are not the only ones. All denominations (and now I am hearing it bubble up in the Southern Baptist Convention), various youth groups, and secular schools also have a host of the blame for turning a blind eye to abuse for a long time. The only problem is that I see the nastiness only in one direction and very little encouragement to fix the problem going forward. We want to punish, not move forward.

This vitriol from both sides here is getting us nowhere and is tiresome. Yelling at each other for who is to blame does not fix a thing.

Colonizations may have had the church at the lead but they were doing the bidding of what the people wanted and did fail their mission. That does not mean we are turning a blind eye now. The Episcopal church was just as culpable as others and they are discussing their way through this but it will take a while.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#27

Post by LM K »

Suranis wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:38 pm None of which changes the fact that there is no evidence that they were deliberately mistreating the children IN THIS PARTICULAR PLACE.

And ya I bet you heard of Tuam from the NYT. The problem is that the NYT, of course, Left out that there was a report in around 1952 that said the place was was horrifically overcrowded, and in another report 3 years later it said they had rectified the problems and were now a model center. PLUS Tuam was open longer than this place and had a lot less Children deaths. AND the indications were that they were NOT tossed into a septic tank, but had been buried in Crypts and the Septic Tank had been installed afterwords in the same field. AND I bet your article didnt mention that the place was owned by the state and that the State has apologized for their part in the deaths, very reluctantly.
Sigh. All I did was mention Tuam as a site if an Irish children's mass grave. I'm not really sure why you're going off on me for mentioning it. :shrug:

I read Irish papers for info on Tuam. I've been keeping up with Tuam developments for some time now. I follow a FB group for those born into the industrial school system and for those who gave birth at Irish mother and baby homes.

The NYT article was the easiest to post.

I've been reading about Irish industrial schools and Irish mother and baby homes for nearly a decade. Please don't tell me what I do and do not know.

I would like to read your sources regarding Tuam if you are willing to provide them.

Finally, I haven't gone off about the Catholic church. I've identified that religious groups, Catholic AND Protestant, ran the residential schools for Indigenous children.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#28

Post by Patagoniagirl »

I was gifted a book, "1491" about 15 years ago. It is about the people and cultures of the Americas before Columbus. I have a deep interest in the culture and lives of indigenous people (everywhere) in the Americas, but I have been more immersed in Cental and South American indigenous culture because I was able to be close to and learn from those cultures.

Aside from the disease and exploitation, the decimation of indigenous "religious" culture and beliefs was cruelly devastating. Europeans came for greed and conquer. Whether their religious intentions were at the forefront, I question. Religion seems a means to an end.



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Re: The Colonization of North America

#29

Post by Suranis »

Ok after thinking about it overnight, I have a couple of things to say. And I haven't read anything that has been posted since.

(1) I apologize for my outburst In my defense, it was due to the fact that When I had done some actual research by actually reading LMK's links, the only response was to disregard it and try and blame my defending Catholics, This infuriated me, especially from a site that values debunking truth and research.

(2) Sorry Foggy, I was attacked first on this, and I gave 2 responses that were limited in scope and I got 3 responses that compleetly ignored what I said and just blathered on that I was defending the Catholic Church rather than doing research on the very links LMK used to try and prove her case. Nothing that the links actually proved LMK incorrect, it was just that it Had to be all me that was wrong becasue I was the Catholic boy.

No-one even considered that I was reporting the truth. They dismissed it without even reading it just becasue the person saying it was me.

(3) I think LMK was a victim of false information. she probably copied and pasted the think verbatim from somewhere. A lot of people never actually click on links, just take what they say at face value which is the essence of misinformation. The first link was positioned to imply it was a link to the report, not a link to a wayback recording of an Amnesty Page that is now gone which spoke about lurid descriptions of Torture. The second link was positioned to imply it was where she got the page, rather than to a much later set of reports from the Truth and reconciliation commission of Canada.

The links were placed in a position to deliberately deceive the reader. Sites like World Net Daily and Infowars were masters at that stuff Thinking that so called left wing sites would be immune to using those techniques defies logic. Especially when you have actors whose only agenda is to invite conflict, but display truth.

The fact is, that the second link contradicted the information on the amnesty page and was 15 years later. I think it is a reasonable assumption that the research of 15 years would give a more accurate account of the numbers of children who died. And this was volume 4, the other volumes would have dealt with the treatment of the children in these schools. I didn't have time to look at all of them yesterday. I quoted the summary page of the volume that dealt specifically with deaths and the missing.

Fact is, that's what I do. If I had a penny for when someone proudly displays a link which they say proves something, and then I look at the link and it actually says the opposite of what they claim, I would be a very rich man.

And I rarely get people saying that they were wrong about it, and usually get silence or a volley of insults, so why I expected anything else here... I guess I'm just foolish.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#30

Post by Patagoniagirl »

Very clever non-apology apology. Bravo.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#31

Post by Suranis »

Oh grow up. I apologized for getting angry and exploding, but I explained why I did so. I don't apologies for reading LMK's links and reporting what was there. Why I should apologies for taking what she said seriously enough to read it in full is anyone's guess.

You could just say "Ok fair enough, the quote LMK used was bogus, but I still think there was an unacceptable level of abuse and death in the schools and ripping kids away from their parents was completely wrong" and I would say "I agree."
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#32

Post by roadscholar »

All I asked was for you to admit that the Church has done awful things. I believe it would be good for the well-being of your mind and spirit.

I did not ask you to state that Catholics have acted worse than other Sects. Or organizations. Or governments. As far as I know, they haven't.

But they have done horrible things in the past. Acknowledge that. It's not "bashing" Catholicism. It is fact. Your not acknowledging it is the root of your tension with the rest of us.

We want to get along well with you, and it pains me when we can't.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#33

Post by filly »

Oh, now revisionist history about a post that has disappeared, in which a certain member violated the rules of the board, directing profanity at others, nasty name calling? I don't know who removed it. It needed to be removed. But that kind of behavior should not be tolerated here. I didn't used to be.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#34

Post by sugar magnolia »

Patagoniagirl wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:19 am Very clever non-apology apology. Bravo.
Not all that clever even.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#35

Post by Suranis »

I've started reading the Truth and Reconciliation report, so thanks to LMK for bringing it to my attention. I've only read the introduction and a few chapters, but it's a really well written, solid piece of history so far, and extremely fair, for good and bad. Highly recommended.

This is Volume 1. http://publications.gc.ca/collections/c ... 15-eng.pdf
for over a century, the central goals of Canada’s Aboriginal policy were to elimi-nate Aboriginal governments; ignore Aboriginal rights; terminate the Treaties; and, through a process of assimilation, cause Aboriginal peoples to cease to exist as distinct legal, social, cultural, religious, and racial entities in Canada. The establishment and operation of residential schools were a central element of this pol-icy, which can best be described as “cultural genocide.

”Physical genocide is the mass killing of the members of a targeted group, and biolog-ical genocide is the destruction of the group’s reproductive capacity. Cultural genocideis the destruction of those structures and practices that allow the group to continue as a group. States that engage in cultural genocide set out to destroy the political and social institutions of the targeted group. Land is seized, and populations are forcibly transferred and their movement is restricted. Languages are banned. Spiritual lead-ers are persecuted, spiritual practices are forbidden, and objects of spiritual value are confiscated and destroyed. And, most significantly to the issue at hand, families are disrupted to prevent the transmission of cultural values and identity from one gener-ation to the next.

In its dealing with Aboriginal people, Canada did all these things.

Canada asserted control over Aboriginal land. In some locations, Canada negoti-ated Treaties with First Nations; in others, the land was simply occupied or seized. The negotiation of Treaties, while seemingly honourable and legal, was often marked by fraud and coercion, and Canada was, and remains, slow to implement their provisions and intent.1

On occasion, Canada forced First Nations to relocate their reserves from agricultur-ally valuable or resource-rich land onto remote and economically marginal reserves.2

Without legal authority or foundation, in the 1880s, Canada instituted a “pass sys-tem” that was intended to confine First Nations people to their reserves.3

Canada replaced existing forms of Aboriginal government with relatively powerless band councils whose decisions it could override and whose leaders it could depose.4In the process, it disempowered Aboriginal women.

Canada denied the right to participate fully in Canadian political, economic, and social life to those Aboriginal people who refused to abandon their Aboriginal identity.5Canada outlawed Aboriginal spiritual practices, jailed Aboriginal spiritual leaders, and con‡scated sacred objects.6

And, Canada separated children from their parents, sending them to residential schools. ‰is was done not to educate them, but primarily to break their link to their culture and identity.‰ese measures were part of a coherent policy to eliminate Aboriginal people as dis-tinct peoples and to assimilate them into the Canadian mainstream against their will. Deputy Minister of Indian Affairs Duncan Campbell Scott outlined the goals of that policy in 1920, when he told a parliamentary committee that “our object is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic.”7

‰ese goals were reiterated in 1969 in the federal government’s Statement of the Government of Canada on Indian Policy (more often referred to as the “White Paper”), which sought to end Indian status and terminate the Treaties that the federal govern-ment had negotiated with First Nations.8‰e Canadian government pursued this policy of cultural genocide because it wished to divest itself of its legal and ‡nancial obligations to Aboriginal people and gain control over their land and resources. If every Aboriginal person had been “absorbed into the body politic,” there would be no reserves, no Treaties, and no Aboriginal rights.Residential schooling quickly became a central element in the federal government’s Aboriginal policy.

When Canada was created as a country in 1867, Canadian churches were already operating a small number of boarding schools for Aboriginal people. As settlement moved westward in the 1870s, Roman Catholic and Protestant missionaries established missions and small boarding schools across the Prairies, in the North, and in British Columbia. Most of these schools received small, per-student grants from the fed-eral government.

In 1883, the federal government moved to establish three, large, resi-dential schools for First Nation children in western Canada. In the following years, the system grew dramatically. According to the Indian Affairs annual report for 1930, there were eighty residential schools in operation across the country.9 ‰e Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement provided compensation to students who attended 139 residential schools and residences.10 ‰e federal government has estimated that at least 150,000 First Nation, Métis, and Inuit students passed through the system.11

Roman Catholic, Anglican, United, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches were the major denominations involved in the administration of the residential school system. ‰e government’s partnership with the churches remained in place until 1969, and, although most of the schools had closed by the 1980s, the last federally supported resi-dential schools remained in operation until the late 1990s.

For children, life in these schools was lonely and alien. Buildings were poorly located, poorly built, and poorly maintained. ‰e staff was limited in numbers, often oorly trained, and not adequately supervised. Many schools were poorly heated and poorly ventilated, and the diet was meagre and of poor quality. Discipline was harsh, and daily life was highly regimented. Aboriginal languages and cultures were deni-grated and suppressed. The educational goals of the schools were limited and con-fused, and usually reflected a low regard for the intellectual capabilities of Aboriginal people. For the students, education and technical training too often gave way to the drudgery of doing the chores necessary to make the schools self-sustaining. Child neglect was institutionalized, and the lack of supervision created situations where students were prey to sexual and physical abusers.

In establishing residential schools, the Canadian government essentially declared Aboriginal people to be unfit parents. Aboriginal parents were labelled as being indif-ferent to the future of their children—a judgment contradicted by the fact that parents often kept their children out of schools because they saw those schools, quite accu-rately, as dangerous and harsh institutions that sought to raise their children in alien ways. Once in the schools, brothers and sisters were kept apart, and the government and churches even arranged marriages for students after they finished their education.

Despite the coercive measures that the government adopted, it failed to achieve its policy goals. Although Aboriginal peoples and cultures have been badly damaged, they continue to exist. Aboriginal people have refused to surrender their identity. It was the former students, the Survivors of Canada’s residential schools, who placed the residential school issue on the public agenda. Their efforts led to the negotiation of the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement that mandated the establishment of a residential school Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada.The Commission’s final report is divided into the following six volumes.

Volume 1: The History
Volume 2: The Inuit and Northern Experience
Volume 3: The Métis Experience
Volume 4: Missing Children and Unmarked Burials
Volume 5: The Legacy
Volume 6: Reconciliation

The first volume, The History, is divided into three sections and, due to its length, is being published in two parts. The first section places residential schooling for Indigenous people in historical context and examines the pre-Confederation roots of the Canadian residential school system. The second section describes the history and the student experience of residential schools from Confederation to 1939. This was the period in which the system was established and expanded. It was also the period of the most intense health crisis. By the end of the 1930s, government officials had come to question the value of the residential school system. The final section covers the years from 1940 to 2000, by which time the system had been brought to an end.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#36

Post by LM K »

Suranis wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:03 am Ok after thinking about it overnight, I have a couple of things to say. And I haven't read anything that has been posted since.

:snippity:
(3) I think LMK was a victim of false information. she probably copied and pasted the think verbatim from somewhere. A lot of people never actually click on links, just take what they say at face value which is the essence of misinformation. The first link was positioned to imply it was a link to the report, not a link to a wayback recording of an Amnesty Page that is now gone which spoke about lurid descriptions of Torture. The second link was positioned to imply it was where she got the page, rather than to a much later set of reports from the Truth and reconciliation commission of Canada.

The links were placed in a position to deliberately deceive the reader. Sites like World Net Daily and Infowars were masters at that stuff Thinking that so called left wing sites would be immune to using those techniques defies logic. Especially when you have actors whose only agenda is to invite conflict, but display truth.

The fact is, that the second link contradicted the information on the amnesty page and was 15 years later. I think it is a reasonable assumption that the research of 15 years would give a more accurate account of the numbers of children who died. And this was volume 4, the other volumes would have dealt with the treatment of the children in these schools. I didn't have time to look at all of them yesterday. I quoted the summary page of the volume that dealt specifically with deaths and the missing.

Fact is, that's what I do. If I had a penny for when someone proudly displays a link which they say proves something, and then I look at the link and it actually says the opposite of what they claim, I would be a very rich man.

And I rarely get people saying that they were wrong about it, and usually get silence or a volley of insults, so why I expected anything else here... I guess I'm just foolish.
1. Sigh. Dude, I tried to give an olive branch. I tried to take the high road. I explained that I think that Amnesty page had a typo. The number is certainly wrong.

2. I read links before I post them. And. I. Fucked. Up.

3. In no way have I attacked Catholicism or Catholics. I've been very clear about the fact that Catholics and Protestants ran these institutions at the behest of the Canadian and the US governments. The Canadian institutions tended to be run by Catholics because, unlike in the US, Canada didn't demonize Catholics. The discussion began with one school which was run by the Catholic church. In no way was I implying that this was/is a Catholic issue.

4) It's not everyday that I'm compared to WND and Infowars. :shock: :lol:

5) I thought you knew me better, Suranis. To my knowledge, I've never gone off about the Catholic church. In the past, I've posted about religion in detail, but it's never been personal, and to my knowledge, has been limited to extremists in the Protestant churches. I'm not interested in making religion personal.

(I'm still interested in your info on Tuam. This thread isn't the place to discuss it, but links would be appreciated if you're willing to provide them.)
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#37

Post by LM K »

Lani wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:16 am :snippity:
My next door neighbor was Aboriginal. Apparently, that was how I bought a house well below average price. We weren't close, but friendly and often chatted. My son frequently went to see if he could play in her backyard. She had restored it to its original nature, all Aussie plants, winding path through the yard. He loved playing there and learning from her about the plants. Sometimes she held a corroboree which we loved to hear.

In time, she told me about being a little girl in a state run camp for Aboriginal mothers and children. One day she was taken away and wound up in Canada. She eventually found out that her home was in the Northern Territory and went on a search for her family. Her parents had passed. She met relatives and learned as much as she could. Then she was conflicted because she was in a better place than her relatives. She had a good education including a university degree. On the other hand, why wasn't that available to her in NT instead of stealing her from her family?
Thank you for sharing this, Lani.

I wonder how many children were shipped from their country of birth to other countries in the past 300 years. I don't know if there is a global number.

Countries/churches/political groups all defend the transportation of children as "in the child's best interest". Your neighbor's experience raises an interesting question; how do we define a "child's best interest"? Why didn't/don't we work to improve conditions for all children in a community rather then severing families?
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#38

Post by Patagoniagirl »

LMK, agreed, why dont we improve conditions for children instead of ripping families apart? Do-gooders taking children because they can provide better (they think) instead of improving the welfare of the family.

Now, I will share a story that will make Sur happy. The catholic church in the indigenous areas of Panama sent radical priests who then set up medical and educational programs. They brought agricultural experts and doctors and teachers. And while they did the whole baptism god thing, they graciously allowed them their own beliefs and cultural traditions.

I spent some time in a Comarca (reservation) to write an article on the Ngabë Buglë. I lived with them and experienced their culture from birth to grave. And food. And clothes. One thing I came away with was that while they accepted the catholic faith, it was simply a path for being able to have better health and education for a world that they saw they would have to live in. And I learned from them (the women) that they still held tightly to their gods and ways. To the sway of nature and the moons. They tolerate catholicism.

The Jesuits there have built a huge indigenous commune for the Ngabë to come down to out of the Comarca, for healthcare, safe prenatal and birth, for education and agricultural development. The Jesuits dont require communion, or pomp. The community in San Felix does not teach children. They have classes for the adults and parents only. Classes are outdoors only. All nutritional education uses only traditional plants and foods.

The only assimilation was that the catholic missionaries did not like the top-nanked women so they taught them how to make pinafore dresses which is their traditional dress now.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#39

Post by Maybenaut »

This article is in today’s Washington Post:

Activists in Canada topple statue, demand apology from pope amid reckoning over death of Indigenous children at residential schools
Protesters on Sunday toppled a statute of Egerton Ryerson — one of the key figures behind Canada’s residential school system, which separated some 150,000 Indigenous children from their homes — amid growing anger over the Catholic Church’s refusal to issue an apology for its role in the abuse students faced.

The rally at Ryerson University in Toronto was organized in response to news last month that the remains of 215 Indigenous children had been found in the yard of a former residential school run by the Catholic Church in British Columbia.

Since the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation shared news of the unmarked burial site on May 27, members of the student body and Indigenous communities have renewed calls on the university to change its name and remove Ryerson’s statue.
Story continues below advertisement

In the wake of the statue’s toppling, university President Mohamed Lachemi said in a statement that it would “not be restored or replaced.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... n-ryerson/
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#40

Post by Lani »

LM K wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:37 pm
Lani wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:16 am :snippity:
Thank you for sharing this, Lani.

I wonder how many children were shipped from their country of birth to other countries in the past 300 years. I don't know if there is a global number.
:snippity:
Great Britain stole their own kids for a long time and sent them to their colonies. Even in the 1960's (perhaps longer). It was a government sponsored program. Save the kids from the horror of an unwed mother (or widow) or unfit father. Sometimes it would offer a month of foster care to give the parent(s) a break. When the parents went to pick up their children, they were gone. I mention the 1960's because some time late in that decade, the government tried to cover up the information and ordered its various agencies around the world to destroy the children's files.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#41

Post by LM K »

Lani wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:37 pm Great Britain stole their own kids for a long time and sent them to their colonies. Even in the 1960's (perhaps longer). It was a government sponsored program. Save the kids from the horror of an unwed mother (or widow) or unfit father. Sometimes it would offer a month of foster care to give the parent(s) a break. When the parents went to pick up their children, they were gone. I mention the 1960's because some time late in that decade, the government tried to cover up the information and ordered its various agencies around the world to destroy the children's files.
Often Americans and Canadians that fostered/adopted these children didn't know the truth about these children's circumstances. They didn't know that the children had families that still wanted the children.

The truth was buried in destroyed paperwork.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#42

Post by LM K »

Pope Francis won’t apologize for abusive church-run schools in Canada, and lawmakers aren’t happy

Few leaders have embraced the power
of an apology for historical wrongs quite as enthusiastically as Pope Francis and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

The former has apologized for the “grave sins” of colonialism in Bolivia, the persecution of Italian Pentecostals and the church’s “failings” during the Rwandan genocide. The latter has said sorry for the execution of six indigenous chiefs by the colonial government of British Columbia, as well as decades of government-sanctioned discrimination against Canada’s LGBT civil servants.

But now, the two are at odds over an apology — or, rather, the lack of one.

Canadian lawmakers overwhelmingly passed a motion on Tuesday — the vote tally was 269-10 — to formally invite Francis to come to Canada and apologize for the Catholic Church’s role in Canada’s residential schools system for indigenous children.Under that system, Canadian authorities removed more than 150,000 indigenous children from their homes from 1883 to 1998, sending them to boarding schools where they suffered physical, psychological and sexual abuse. Roughly two-thirds of the schools were run by the Catholic Church.
Canada’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which investigated the residential schools system for six years, included an apology from the pope among its 94 recommendations on ways to repair what it called an attempt at “cultural genocide.” But Canada’s Roman Catholic bishops said in a letter last month that the pope “felt he could not personally respond,” sparking fierce criticism.

“It was bishops who promoted the policy, it was the bishops who oversaw it and it was the bishops who worked hand-in-hand with the federal government and covered it up,” said Charles Angus, the lawmaker who introduced the motion, during a debate on the motion in Parliament last week.

Trudeau, who asked the pope to consider an apology during a May 2017 visit to the Vatican, said the decision left him “disappointed.” The Vatican’s representative in Canada did not respond to requests for comment from The Washington Post.

Justin Trudeau apologizes for the brutal hanging of tribal chiefs 150 years ago

Bishops across Canada have offered a number of rationales for the pope’s decision.

Some argue that the papacy has sufficiently apologized for residential schools. They point to a meeting in 2009 during which Pope Benedict XVI told Phil Fontaine, then the leader of the Assembly of First Nations, Canada’s largest indigenous organization, that he felt “sorrow” about the schools.

But lawmakers and indigenous groups say “sorrow” is not nearly enough. They want a formal papal apology
like the landmark one issued by Benedict in 2010 to people sexually abused by clergymen in Ireland, or the more recent apologies Francis has offered.

“Hearing an apology directly from Pope Francis would have a profound impact for many of our people and would be an important act of healing and reconciliation, much like the apology delivered to the indigenous peoples of the Americas in 2015,” said Perry Bellegarde, the current national chief of the Assembly of First Nations.

The motion also calls on the church to pay the 25 million Canadian dollars it owes under a 2007 settlement between the Canadian government and the survivors of residential schools that ended thousands of lawsuits.

The United, Presbyterian and Anglican churches, which ran many of the rest of the schools, apologized for their roles in the residential school system in the 1990s. Trudeau’s predecessor, Stephen Harper, issued a formal apology on behalf of the Canadian government in 2008.

Others worry that the pope, who depends on the counsel of bishops and prefers to make decisions when there is consensus, was given conflicting advice from bishops in Canada.

"In different parts of the country our relationships with indigenous people are different, and the things we hear from our indigenous people are different,” said Donald Bolen, an archbishop in Saskatchewan who supports the call for an apology, to broadcaster CBC.

Even those who support a papal apology have concerns. Some question whether the government has any business requesting an apology from the head of a religious group. Others wonder whether an apology called for in this way would be sincere.

Michael McLeod, a Liberal Party lawmaker who represents an area where he says the legacies of residential school are still felt, told Parliament that, although he agreed an apology was needed, “Forcing someone to apologize doesn’t really sit well with me.”
I'm saddened and surprised by Pope Francis' decision to not apologize.

What does it cost the Church to issue a formal apology? Imo, an apology can only help the church.

I wonder how many of the children who left the residential schools left as practicing Catholics? Certainly some did. Don't they deserve better from their Pontiff?
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#43

Post by Estiveo »

All the other churches were doin' it. :nope:
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#44

Post by LM K »

Estiveo wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:12 pm All the other churches were doin' it. :nope:
Except they did.

From the article:
The United, Presbyterian and Anglican churches, which ran many of the rest of the schools, apologized for their roles in the residential school system in the 1990s.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#45

Post by keith »

Lani wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:37 pm
LM K wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:37 pm
Lani wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:16 am :snippity:
Thank you for sharing this, Lani.

I wonder how many children were shipped from their country of birth to other countries in the past 300 years. I don't know if there is a global number.
:snippity:
Great Britain stole their own kids for a long time and sent them to their colonies. Even in the 1960's (perhaps longer). It was a government sponsored program. Save the kids from the horror of an unwed mother (or widow) or unfit father. Sometimes it would offer a month of foster care to give the parent(s) a break. When the parents went to pick up their children, they were gone. I mention the 1960's because some time late in that decade, the government tried to cover up the information and ordered its various agencies around the world to destroy the children's files.
One of my best friends in Australia came as a child from Britain on one of the organized exoduses (or whatever you call them). She mentioned it a couple of times, but I never really had a chance to talk in depth about the circumstances before she passed. I got the impression that she was happy about the result, but I have no idea about who/what she left behind if anything. She was Jewish, so it may have been tied up with 'sending them someplace, anyplace but Israel' stuff.
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#46

Post by keith »

LM K wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:09 pm I'm saddened and surprised by Pope Francis' decision to not apologize.

What does it cost the Church to issue a formal apology? Imo, an apology can only help the church.
Damage to the veneer of infallibility, which is a fundamental cornerstone to their power.
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Suranis
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#47

Post by Suranis »

Its been banging around in my head why this false number of 50,000 children was mentioned and why these lurid tales of torture popped up. Well I was reminded saw the name Kevin Arnette mentioned somewhere else and it rang a bell, and this morning I finally remembered who the guy was. The man has been making money scamming good peoples generosity for years, and has been called the worst thing to happen to the Native people of Canada.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Internati ... _and_State
International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State

The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State (or ITCCS) is a one-man blog that pretends to be a tribunal established to enforce common law. Despite claims of being based in Brussels, the whole thing is written in Canada by Kevin D. Annett, a defrocked United Church of Canada minister.

The ITCCS came to some notice in the social media sphere in February 2013, when Annett issued a claim that Pope Benedict XVI resigned for fear of arrest on an ITCCS warrant and the hard-of-thinking forwarded it around as if this actually made sense. The website did look fairly professional at the time, although it has since decayed heavily. If nothing else, it nicely illustrates how the Timecube Law and Haig’s Law can go hand in hand.

Previously, Annett had made his money claiming to represent the interests of native Canadians. Until they told him to damn well stop it.

What Annett Does

At the heart of the “organization” is something Annett calls the International Common Law Court of Justice (ICLCJ), which is rather similar to those “common law courts” sometimes set up by freemen-on-the-land, right down to the “citizen jurors”. This court exists only on Annett’s blog.

With the ITCCS, Annett attempts to mimic genuine international organisations, and is actually good enough at this to have fooled a few normal people (and a lot of raving conspiracy-prone nutters) into thinking there’s anything at all to this. He produces very nicely-formatted, official-looking documents and everything. However, an examination of the blog’s actual content will quickly reveal that in legal terms, it’s not even wrong even by pseudolaw standards. Annett has “convicted” two consecutive Popes of genocide and child trafficking, issuing “international arrest warrants” for them. He has also issued a proclamation dissolving Canada, which he has replaced with the Republic of Kanata. He also dissolved Great Britain, though that one was only on Twitter.

He is a fan of the freeman on the land movement. This has become more prominent in recent months, and the website now sports a prominent link to a so-called “Common Law Community Training Manual”, which is basically a Sovereign citizen FAQ. They also have a collection of “Common Law Court Documents”, in case you were looking for a pseudolaw starter kit.

Finally, it should be noted that most genuine international legal bodies are not “Proudly powered by WordPress”, nor do they ask you to contact them via a Gmail address.

Accosting the native Canadian community

“”As one who has been commissioned by the Onkwehonwe (Mohawk) and Haudenosonee (Iroquois) nations to share this Great Law with my own people...
—Kevin Annett[32]

Annett claims (to this day) to have been personally chosen by the native Canadian community to (pseudo)legally represent them, previously also having made his money claiming to represent their interests.[32] Until they told him to damn well stop it.[33][34]

Before his press releases about arresting popes, Annett was known for making extensive claims of exposing ritual murder of native children in residential schools. He was active in native activist organisations in Canada[35] — which he had a habit of using to raise money for himself, claiming their support and endorsement until forced to desist.[36] Here's a real shocker: this is illegal in Canada.[37]

Annett’s explanation for all this is to claim that all official representatives of native Canadians are corrupt and have agreed to keep the deaths of thousands of children secret.[38]

Despite the attempts to limit his abuse of real topics, he has since went on to make outright pseudohistorical claims. From his webpage;[39]
“”"We have forensic proof now that countless children are buried in mass graves near former church schools, orphanages and sweatshops across Canada, America, England, Ireland and Australia" said ITCCS spokesman Kevin Annett today.

Notice that the above, which he posted on kevinannett.com, is in fact an interview with himself, in which he (as Kevin Annett, the person) asks himself the questions and answers them in third person (as Kevin Annett, the ITCCS spokesman).
Lets hear it from the Aboriginal people of Canada themselves. This is an extremely long web site with different articles with lots of different authors. I'll exerpt from one of them but you really should take time to read the whole thing.

https://www.bc-north.com/2018/12/13/the ... nal-abuse/
The Truth about Kevin Arnett and Aboriginal Abuse

:snippity:

How one man’s wild claims threaten success of Truth and Reconciliation.

By Terry Glavin, 30 Apr 2008, TheTyee.ca

When Noam Chomsky says Canada’s famously defrocked United Church minister Kevin Annett is “more deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize than many who have received it in the past,” you can take his word for it if you want. And if you like, you can believe Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Corrigan-Maguire of the Belfast Peace People when she calls Annett “a courageous and inspiring man.”

It’s important to be fair, and to allow that sometimes people say things without really knowing what they’re talking about and they might one day regret the things they’ve said.

But if you do believe these things, I’m afraid there are quite a few more things you are going to have to believe, because you can’t have it both ways. If Kevin Annett really is prize-worthy and courageous, you will also have to believe this:

-One of Canada’s most respected First Nations’ leaders is trafficking in children from Northern British Columbia in a profitable pedophilia ring that’s run out of the West Hastings Street premises of the swish Vancouver Club. His clients are Vancouver judges, politicians, and church leaders.

-Back in the 1930s, a team of German doctors arrived at the Kuper Island Indian residential school and began conducting strange medical experiments on the children. Employing large hypodermic needles, they injected some sort of toxin directly into the chests of the school’s young inmates, and several were killed as a result.

-As recently as the 1950s and 1960s, aboriginal children at a Vancouver Island medical research facility were tortured with electrodes implanted in their skulls. At least one child was beaten to death with a whip fitted with razors.

-At the Hobbema and Saddle Lake Indian residential schools in Alberta, children were incinerated in furnaces. At St. Anne’s Indian residential school in Fort Albany, Ontario, children were executed in an electric chair. At McGill University in Montreal, there is a mass grave containing the bodies of aboriginal children killed in experiments undertaken by the Central Intelligence Agency’s top-secret MK-ULTRA program.

These are just a few of the stories Annett has been circulating since the early 1990s. He has failed to produce a shred of evidence. RCMP investigators who have looked into Annett’s allegations always come up empty. Some of these stories the RCMP hasn’t investigated because nobody’s reported them, for reasons Annett explains as a distrust of the police.

:snippity:

Journalists compound the harm

Still, Annett is interviewed sympathetically on CBC’s As It Happens, and it is commonplace for journalists to report Annett’s claims unchallenged, no matter how bizarre, and without first inquiring into his history of allegation-making. His documentary film Unrepentant has earned favourable reviews in such “progressive” Canadian journals as Briarpatch. It has won awards at independent film festivals in New York and Los Angeles.

This matters.



It matters because the story of secret residential-school mass graves is an urban legend.

For years, RCMP investigators have been chasing down these stories and they always come up with nothing. But they persist, like the alligators in New York’s sewers.

It matters because the thousands of aboriginal people who really did suffer unspeakable torment in residential schools deserve something rather more from us than our complicity in the act of dumping their very real suffering down a rabbit hole into the same parallel universe where you’ll find alien abductions, Masonic plots, crop circles, and 9-11 conspiracies.

It matters for lots of reasons.

Annett enjoys the backing of not a single representative tribal organization, and in early April, when he released what he claims is a list of the locations of 28 mass graves of children who died in church-run residential schools, he also announced the formation of the “International Human Rights Tribunal into Genocide in Canada” to carry out its own investigations.

At risk, Truth and Reconciliation

Meanwhile, after a generation of bitter and hard-fought struggle, the Assembly of First Nations, the Canadian churches that ran the schools and the federal government have embarked upon a $2 billion settlement process that includes the Indian Residential Schools Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
This guy has polluted the real information out there to a massive extent. He was the sole source for the 2001 "report" cited by LMK. He is a con man and a Sov cit, and yet his shit is passed around to this day by well meaning but misinformed people. That's why Amnesty pulled that website when they fount out the report was a Con.

As the actual truth and Reconciliation commission report shows there were bad things that happened. But that does not change the fact that 90% or the stories floating around are the fantasies of a sov cit defroked Church of Canada Minister.

Or, you know, He's a saint, and the Aboriginals and I are just defending the Catholic Church because we're eeeeeviiiillll. :roll:
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Suranis
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#48

Post by Suranis »

https://www.ctvnews.ca/pope-apologizes- ... s-1.393911
~
Pope apologizes for abuse at native schools
CTV.ca News Staff Published Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:26PM EDT Last Updated Friday, May 18, 2012 10:47PM EDT

Pope Benedict has said he is sorry for the physical and sexual abuse and "deplorable" conduct at Catholic church-run Canadian residential schools.

The Vatican says the pontiff expressed his sorrow and emphasized that "acts of abuse cannot be tolerated" at a meeting Wednesday with representatives of native Canadians.

"Given the sufferings that some indigenous children experienced in the Canadian residential school system, the Holy Father expressed his sorrow at the anguish caused by the deplorable conduct of some members of the church and he offered his sympathy and prayerful solidarity," a statement from the Vatican said.

Archbishop Gerard Pettipas of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, who attended Wednesday's meeting, says it was an important moment.

Until today, the Church as a whole had never apologized for the abuse that aboriginal students suffered at the hands of Catholic missionary congregations.

"What we've been trying to do is to bring about healing and reconciliation between the Church, the government of Canada and our First Nations people," he told Canada AM shortly after the meeting.

"There was a feeling that despite the apologies that were offered by the oblates and some bishops, that the Catholic Church as a whole has not recognized the part that we played.

"As a gesture of reconciliation... it was important to hear from the one person who does speak for the Catholic Church around the world, to hear him say 'I am sorry. I feel for what you people have suffered. We hope that we can turn the page and move toward a better future together.'"

Chief Edward John of the Tlazten First Nations says he hopes the apology will help "many people move forward."

"We heard the prime minister's apology a year ago in June. And today, to listen to the Holy Father explain his profound sorrow and sadness and to express that there was no room for this sort of abuse to take place in the residential schools, that is an emotional barrier that now has been lifted for many people," he said.

Phil Fontaine, national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, said he appreciated the apology from the Church.

"I think His Holiness understands the pain that was endured by so many and I heard him say that it caused him great anguish," said Fontaine, who attended the meetings, on Wednesday.

"I also heard His Holiness say that the abuse of the nature that was inflicted on us has no place in the Church, it's intolerable and it caused him great anguish."

"What I heard," Fontaine added, "it gives me comfort."
Exactly how many times should one apologize to satisfy some people, especially when it has been accepted by the people involved?
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Lani
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#49

Post by Lani »

Maybe give it up? Many countries in Europe, European colonies, and North America and many varieties of Christianity and state governments harmed children (and adults) with their devastating eugenics activities. There's plenty of blame to go around.
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Maybenaut
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Re: The Colonization of North America

#50

Post by Maybenaut »

There’s an op Ed in today’s Washington post about this topic.

Deb Haaland, the U.S. Secretary of the Interior, writes,

My grandparents were stolen from their families as children. We must learn about this history.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... g-schools/
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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