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Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

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johnpcapitalist
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Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#1

Post by johnpcapitalist »

For some time, I have been interested in Ross Douthat, the NY Times columnist. I've also been intrigued by a similar writer, Rod Dreher.

One of their major themes is that Christianity is fundamentally incompatible with the secular world. Dreher has written extensively (including a book of this title, IIRC) about "the Benedict option," where he proposes that Christians should create and populate communities of like-minded believers strictly isolated from the secular world, until something magical happens and Christians are somehow able to find the strength to cope with non-believers.

What I find interesting about Dreher's admission of surrender is the notion that Christianity, the overwhelmingly dominant religion of the most powerful nation on Earth, is somehow implicitly so weak (either the religion itself or the strength of the faith of its adherents) that it is unable to survive even a casual brush with everyday life. There are more implicit assumptions that somehow all non-Christians are so dirtied with sin that mere proximity is threatening to one's shot at the afterlife.

It's a kind of existential fear, though one different than the kind of "Christian victimization" that Todd Starnes (Fox's "war on Christmas" idiot) and many others lie about.

Douthat is highly educated (private school, Harvard) and is technically a good writer. This means he's able to take these arguments and couch them in pseudo-profound bullshit that makes them seem far more sophisticated than they are. Dreher is also no slouch.

So I'm creating this topic to explore these authors' nonsense in particular, and the phenomenon of the implicit assumption of the fragility of Christian faith that adherents have -- distinct from the "Christian persecution" nonsense.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#2

Post by Suranis »

It's not. Suggesting that Christianity is not compatible with the world after 2000 years of social change is ludicrous.

It is however fundamentally incompatible with Modern American Capitalism, which is probably what the guy is really saying but not saying the quiet part out loud.

And you have to wonder what "Christianity" he is talking about
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#3

Post by sterngard friegen »

A belief system which requires acceptance of fairy tales is utterly incompatible with a world in which science exists.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#4

Post by SlimSloSlider »

sterngard friegen wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:33 pm A belief system which requires acceptance of fairy tales is utterly incompatible with a world in which science exists.
and there’s the rub.
A speciocentric mythology cobbled together by a small group of desert-dwellers thousands of years ago and presuming moral authority despite overwhelming evidence of the contrary, claiming infallibility which is the antithesis of science, is finally losing its hold.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#5

Post by fierceredpanda »

Rod Dreher is a bigoted creep who (in)famously left the Catholic Church to join the Orthodox Church in the middle of the first round of child molestation scandals in the mid-2000s. Good for him, right? Wrong. He left because he felt the Catholic Church's response should have been to be meaner to gay people. Fuck Rod Dreher.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#6

Post by Suranis »

That the Universe exists and runs on certain laws does not invalidate the notion that something set it up. Especially since the race on this particular planet seems to have had everything inexplicably set up to insure its able to survive. Its gotten so bad that some scientists are proposing a faith based notion that there are infinite universes existing simultaneously, and this just happens to be the one where everything is set up just right for life on this double planet to exist.

There no evidence for it, but it avoids those nasty G O D notions, and allows you to ignore evidence and still claim you are a Scientist.

Oh and they didn't think the earth was flat in the middle ages or indeed anytime after 350 BC. That's a lie made up by Atheists in the 18th century becasue you know Atheists are all about Truth, twinned with some peoples desire to make Columbus a hero of Rationalism. For example, In 400AD in "city of God" St Augustine spoke out against the notion that the "Antipodes" (I.e. people on the other side of the sphere) would be the same as people in Europe, considering the vast distances they would have traveled since the time of the first man. We have come a long way since people wandering around on Camels in a desert. :lol:

And since I know someone will bring up disasters, basically, there's a philosopher that believes the Universe should be looked at as a series of separate processes, where if you live in a smaller process inside a larger one then stuff associated with the larger process will seem inexplicable. So things like Earthquakes and Volcanoes and Hurricanes actually allow us to survive far more than they kill us. Again, part of the wonderful coincidences that allow us to exist.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#7

Post by Suranis »

First round of Child Molestation scandals were in the early 1990s. Its just they keep redescovering Catholic Scandals and pretending to be shocked rather than, I don't know, noticing the scandals closer to home...
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#8

Post by SlimSloSlider »

Suranis wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:33 am That the Universe exists and runs on certain laws does not invalidate the notion that something set it up.

no evidence for it, but it avoids those nasty G O D notions, and allows you to ignore evidence and still claim you are a Scientist.

Oh and they didn't think the earth was flat in the middle ages or indeed anytime after 350 BC.

Again, part of the wonderful coincidences that allow us to exist.
A deist view of existence is not Christian, necessarily, nor does it require the Bible, the Gospels, the Jesus story, none of it.
Comparative mythology would suggest that born-again saviours are far from unique in human storytelling.
I think John C. is questioning certain Christian fear-mongering which in no way obviates the unfalsifiable god or no god question.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#9

Post by Dave from down under »

johnpcapitalist wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:32 pm For some time, I have been interested in Ross Douthat, the NY Times columnist. I've also been intrigued by a similar writer, Rod Dreher.
:snippity:
So I'm creating this topic to explore these authors' nonsense in particular, and the phenomenon of the implicit assumption of the fragility of Christian faith that adherents have -- distinct from the "Christian persecution" nonsense.
I would hazard that for both of them it is their faith that is fragile.

Monasteries exit for those who cannot keep their faith if they were living in the world.

As to the rest of his writing.. it is contrary to the core tenants of the gospel, which may be just a projection of that lack of faith.

IMO
no.. :torches:
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#10

Post by fierceredpanda »

Suranis wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:36 am First round of Child Molestation scandals were in the early 1990s. Its just they keep redescovering Catholic Scandals and pretending to be shocked rather than, I don't know, noticing the scandals closer to home...
Suranis, I can't win with you. Here I thought I'd actually get you to agree with me on something, i.e. contempt for Rod Dreher (in my case because he's a moralizing homophobe, and in your case because he's a heretic who crossed the Great Schism in the wrong direction). Instead you play the child molestation whataboutism card from the bottom of the deck. I feel like I shouldn't need to explain that "But those other people raped children too!" isn't the defense you think it is.

I can only speak for myself, but I rise each day thankful that I live in a place and during an epoch where and when daring to criticize organized religion is something I am at liberty to do without fear of being put on the rack or burned at the stake. Douthat and Dreher both embody the privileged viewpoint that the restoration of equality in this respect amounts to "persecution" of Christians.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#11

Post by filly »

Suranis wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:36 am First round of Child Molestation scandals were in the early 1990s. Its just they keep redescovering Catholic Scandals and pretending to be shocked rather than, I don't know, noticing the scandals closer to home...
You mean “uncovering “ instead of “resdiscovering “ [re-discovering].
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#12

Post by neeneko »

So... he wants to go live with the Amish?
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#13

Post by roadscholar »

In fairness, the Catholic Church has acknowledged science (albeit slowly) far better than American Evangelicals. That’s where the 6000-year-old-earth and men-walked-with-dinosaurs garbage started.

Well, maybe not started, but I don’t hear Catholics carping on that stuff now.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#14

Post by noblepa »

I have known a couple of people who, I think, are "good Christians" in every sense of the word, but who had no problem living in the modern world.

One guy, in particular, worked for IBM and helped my employer upgrade our mainframe computer to the newest version of the operating system, z/OS.

He only occasionally mentioned his faith, but I knew that he was a regular church-goer. He didn't preach at anyone, he didn't constantly ask if I had found Jesus, although it was obvious that he had.

No, you could tell by his words and actions, as well as the respect he showed for everyone around him, that here was a man who held firm moral (but not moralistic) beliefs and lived by them. Although he had strong beliefs, he felt no compulsion to make me, or anyone else, "see the light" and share his beliefs. Back in the sixties and seventies, there was a Christian song making the rounds, called "They Will Know We Are Christians by Our Love". You could tell by the way this guy talked and acted that he was a Christian.

He didn't use his faith as a weapon, as so many do. You could just see that it gave him an inner strength that many people lack.

The fact that he worked for IBM and their customers, to me, proves that he had no problem living in the modern, technological world.

I do not have that level of faith, myself, but I respect those who do. It is possible to respect religious beliefs without sharing them.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#15

Post by Suranis »

fierceredpanda wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:17 am
Suranis, I can't win with you. Here I thought I'd actually get you to agree with me on something, i.e. contempt for Rod Dreher (in my case because he's a moralizing homophobe, and in your case because he's a heretic who crossed the Great Schism in the wrong direction). Instead you play the child molestation whataboutism card from the bottom of the deck. I feel like I shouldn't need to explain that "But those other people raped children too!" isn't the defense you think it is.

I can only speak for myself, but I rise each day thankful that I live in a place and during an epoch where and when daring to criticize organized religion is something I am at liberty to do without fear of being put on the rack or burned at the stake. Douthat and Dreher both embody the privileged viewpoint that the restoration of equality in this respect amounts to "persecution" of Christians.

Was this a competition? I don't know anything about Rod Dreher. I've never heard of him, and frankly I have no interest in finding out more about him. So how could I agree with you? My Comment was chipping on something I DO know something about, correcting your timeline.

Frankly, the fact that you think I would charge in cluelessly spitting fire just because the guy was a "heretic" shows a pretty bigoted view right there. The real Inquisition didn't do that either. That's why they threw out the Man who wrote the Malum Mallificarum, for falsely accusing Women of Witchcraft. They investigated before forming a judgement. That's what Inquisition means; Bringers of Light.

And yes I showed a bit of cynisism and the results of 30 years of watching people pretending to have the Vapours about one group and painting everyone with the same brush, while not giving a shit when it comes to every other group about everyone else with plenty of "oh this guy is an exception." Its like accusing All Democrats of being immoral philanderers becasue Bill Clinton had a consensual blow job oh wai...

And ya the fact you thought it started in the 2000s shows how well they pretended they hadn't heard of it before. All the better to have exaggerated shocked reactions to sucker in a new bunch of haters. And ya it's shocking that the only study on Abuse by Clergy was commissioned by the Catholic Church itself, becasue no-one else seemed to be interested in painting a true picture of what actually went on. Which of course is used as a reason to dismiss the report by people who want to cling to their fantasies of Catholic Priest child buggery. (Celibate Priests abused children at a lower rate than Married men do? You don't say!)

And ya, I defend my faith, becasue there is more to Catholisism than Queeres, Coathangers, Condoms, and Diapers. And I have a right to do so.

https://newrepublic.com/article/142999/ ... se-scandal
The scale of potential abuse is huge. Evangelical Protestants far outnumber Catholics in the United States, with more than 280,000 churches, religious schools, and affiliated organizations. In 2007, the three leading insurance companies that provide coverage for the majority of Protestant institutions said they received an average of 260 reports per year of child sexual abuse at the hands of church leaders and members. By contrast, the Catholic Church was reporting 228 “credible accusations” per year.

“Protestants have responded much worse than the Catholics to this issue,” says Boz Tchividjian, a former child sex-abuse prosecutor who is the grandson of legendary evangelist Billy Graham. “One of the reasons is that, like it or not, the Catholics have been forced, through three decades of lawsuits, to address this issue. We’ve never been forced to deal with it on a Protestant-wide basis.”

To investigate and expose sexual abuse in evangelical churches, Tchividjian founded GRACE, short for Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment. In 2011, the group was hired to look into what had happened on the Bangladesh compound. While the abuse itself took place long ago, ABWE’s denial and coverup spanned more than two decades—a pattern that eerily replicates the Catholic scandal. The authoritarianism that often prevails in fundamentalist circles, Tchividjian says, is what sets the stage for widespread abuse—and for the systematic mishandling of reported cases. “When you have so much concentrated authority, in so few fallible individuals, problems percolate,” he says. “And when they do, they’re not often addressed. Because the leaders who hold all the authority decide what to do with them.”
But hey lets beat up on the people who actually tried to deal with the issue, rather than the people who have more cases, dealt with it worse and who continue to cover it up? Because that's what people who care about child abuse rather than a bit of Papist bashing would do. Sorry for being a little bent out of shape to be constantly accused of being a child molester for 30 fucking years with people insisting nothing has changed since the 1980s.

"But you cant deny that Catholics..." Oh, fuck off.

And I think its cute that you think you can criticize churches, but try and point out Protestants do sexual abuse on the internet and see how far you get. Admit it, even you are shying away from the idea rather than the CC.

And I used to do some debunking of Paethos Atheist articles on facebook and got nothing but rage for it. It's amazing how Fundamentalist and dogmatic Atheists can be. No, people in the Middle Ages never thought the Earth was flat
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#16

Post by roadscholar »

He only occasionally mentioned his faith, but I knew that he was a regular church-goer. He didn't preach at anyone, he didn't constantly ask if I had found Jesus, although it was obvious that he had.
I too have known many Christians like that fellow. Lovely people. Exemplary even. I really don’t know how so many others who call themselves followers of Christ have rationalized doing and saying the complete opposite of His example.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#17

Post by fierceredpanda »

Suranis wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:21 am Was this a competition? :snippity:
TL;DR. I wrote four sentences directed towards you, and you respond with ranty non sequiturs (Who said anything about the Earth being flat?) and more whataboutism about Protestants. (I am not a Protestant, though I was formerly.)

By the way, my comment about you viewing Dreher as a heretic was so obviously in jest that the fact that you missed that and used it as evidence of my being a bigot makes me question your sincerity. I will leave it to others to judge whether I said anything to justify such an overheated response.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#18

Post by tek »

Case in point: my brother and sister-in-law.

They are very Christian, they go to church every Sunday, there are religious things scattered about their house.
They are, I believe, the best people on the entire planet.
They will do anything to help anybody, even if it means putting aside things they want/need to do for themselves.
They never EVER wave their religion in your face.. actually, I don't think I recall them ever mentioning it other than saying "OK I can help with that after church Sunday"

Their true test of faith was when their son came out as gay. That was bumpy. The next bumpy part was dealing with our parents, who didn't want to hear about it. But they persisted.

So, my take is that the "Christians" who are in everyone's face are really not. And they know it. They need to make noise to convince themselves they are, and thus will be "saved"
roadscholar wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:21 am
He only occasionally mentioned his faith, but I knew that he was a regular church-goer. He didn't preach at anyone, he didn't constantly ask if I had found Jesus, although it was obvious that he had.
I too have known many Christians like that fellow. Lovely people. Exemplary even. I really don’t know how so many others who call themselves followers of Christ have rationalized doing and saying the complete opposite of His example.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#19

Post by Slim Cognito »

I've known true Christians (my younger brother M for example) and I've known hypocritical Christians. I've known far more of the second group. My brother was a federal probation officer and he worked his ASS* off helping his clients (his term, not the official one). I remember him telling us a story about one of his clients being harassed by the local police force, just trying to get him to break the law so they could send him back to prison. He kept telling M they had installed a camera on a telephone pole outside his house and then set up garden gnomes (the guy suffered from mental illness and had a gnome fascination) hoping to catch him stealing them. M went to his house thinking the guy was imagining things. He wasn't. There was the camera and a truckload of gnomes at a police officer's house a couple of doors away. He took that precinct DOWN!

He volunteers, he spends Thanksgiving and Christmas at soup kitchens and now takes his daughter. He's taught her so well that whenever she receives $$ for Christmas or b'day, she voluntarily donates it to homeless shelters.** He is the most Christ-like person I've ever known and I'm an atheist. And I respect his religious devotion more than words can express.

Then there's the other kind of christian...

Also too, he has no problem with science, evolution, etc. He doesn't take the bible literally. He sees it more as an Aesop's Fables thing.

*until he had to deal with child molesters. That about killed him. Part of his job entailed viewing the evidence.

**Now I donate her gifts to Habitat for Humanity in her name. Sometimes they send her a plush dog or teddy bear as a thank you.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#20

Post by Suranis »

Oh and just to show something everyone can have a laugh at becasue fuck taking yourself too seriously today.
order of the Pug.jpg
order of the Pug.jpg (61.54 KiB) Viewed 4168 times

And the wonderful thing is that its actually true. God bless history <3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Pug

And it allowed women members! AAAAGHHH!!

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/07/ ... f-the-pug/
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#21

Post by Foggy »

The Universe is an inherently violent place. What is more violent than the birth of stars or the effect of black holes? Do you know what scientists project will happen to the Earth when the Sun runs out of fuel? :shock:

Any religion based on "God loves you and wants you to be happy" is objectively false.

I read a story once about a minister, nice guy, just driving along in his van. He ran over a rock which flew up and hit his gas tank, causing a fire. He and his wife were able to get out in time to watch their six children burn to death. But God loves him and wants him to be happy, OK? :liar:

There is science, and there are unanswerable questions that you can only pretend to answer by inventing a religion, and there is the relentless, implacable violence of the Universe, which is going to kill you, your ancestors, your descendants, and everyone you love.

So cheer up! God loves you and wants you to be happy! :fiesta:
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#22

Post by roadscholar »

So much bad theology about...

I was visiting my dying grandfather in the hospital and walked down the hall past a grieving couple who had just lost an infant child. As I passed I heard their Pastor tell them “You must have done something God is now punishing you for.”

It took all my strength not to slug him.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#23

Post by Foggy »

Yeah, I bet they didn't put enough $ in the collection plate. :fingerwag:

I can't even imagine what that minister I read about did wrong. :eek:
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#24

Post by Phoenix520 »

I admit I haven’t read much Douthat. I remember him as a scold, not at all profound, although you could tell that’s what he was aiming for. (He was known back then as Douche Hat) He must have gotten a lot better since 2006 when I first discovered him.

I’ll participate after I do some more reading. Thanks, JPC. If we can keep our emotions in check (ahem), promises to be an interesting thread.
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Re: Ross Douthat, Rod Dreher, etc. + Fear of Religious Extinction/Christian Inferiority

#25

Post by fierceredpanda »

roadscholar wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:14 am So much bad theology about...

I was visiting my dying grandfather in the hospital and walked down the hall past a grieving couple who had just lost an infant child. As I passed I heard their Pastor tell them “You must have done something God is now punishing you for.”

It took all my strength not to slug him.
That's sadism, pure and simple. I'm pretty sure those parents could have slugged the pastor and there's not a prosecutor in this country that would have brought a case against them.
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