Fogbow

sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:54 pm

AndyinPA wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:02 pm https://www.thedailybeast.com/kkk-leade ... ia=desktop

The remains of Confederate general and KKK leader Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife were dug up from a Memphis park and removed, along with a statue, to an undisclosed location. Descendants of Forrest, who was also a slave trader, were present during the exhumation, which was sparked by a grassroots effort to have monuments to racists removed from the city, the Commercial Appeal reported. “I think the Forrest family wanted the remains of their ancestor to rest in peace, because there was never going to be peace here,” Shelby County Commissioner Van Turner said. The remains and statute will eventually be transferred to the National Confederate Museum.

"Somebody needs to say a good word for slavery."

I do like this description of the statute on wikipedia "It is generally considered aesthetically unappealing due to its abnormal facial features, which bear little resemblance to Forrest himself, and more resemble a screaming deformed man". Statue was built in 1998. Melt down this atrocity.

sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:54 pm

AndyinPA wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:02 pm https://www.thedailybeast.com/kkk-leade ... ia=desktop

The remains of Confederate general and KKK leader Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife were dug up from a Memphis park and removed, along with a statue, to an undisclosed location. Descendants of Forrest, who was also a slave trader, were present during the exhumation, which was sparked by a grassroots effort to have monuments to racists removed from the city, the Commercial Appeal reported. “I think the Forrest family wanted the remains of their ancestor to rest in peace, because there was never going to be peace here,” Shelby County Commissioner Van Turner said. The remains and statute will eventually be transferred to the National Confederate Museum.

"Somebody needs to say a good word for slavery."

The remains will be held in a museum?

Dr. Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:05 pm

sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:54 pm

AndyinPA wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:02 pm https://www.thedailybeast.com/kkk-leade ... ia=desktop

"Somebody needs to say a good word for slavery."

I do like this description of the statute on wikipedia "It is generally considered aesthetically unappealing due to its abnormal facial features, which bear little resemblance to Forrest himself, and more resemble a screaming deformed man". Statue was built in 1998. Melt down this atrocity.

Can't melt it down. It's fiberglass with gold and silver leaf.

sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:15 pm
Can't melt it down. It's fiberglass with gold and silver leaf.

Can't hurt to try can it...

I'll get the gasoline and a match...

roadscholar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:41 pm And Lee instructed Southerners to return to being loyal citizens of the USA, and NOT to fly the rebel flag. Not that many of them heeded him, but still.

The man was no Nathan Forrest nor Jeff Davis neither. He deserves the distinction of at least being honorable in defeat.

It’s a shame to destroy art, when it can be re-contextualized. There is a place for Nazi symbols, and it’s a WWII museum, not the streets of Charlottesville. And a place for a Confederate statue: a private cemetery for fallen Southern soldiers, not a town square maintained by black families’ taxes and right in their faces.

Context really is everything.

Bob is an enigma to me. No one who goes down the street from here and looks out on that field can harbor any illusion that Lee was a military genius, he benefitted greatly by fighting a long string if idiots and when Meade and then Grant got across the field he stopped winning.

Also, "the lost cause movement" that arose after Grant's death did more than make Lee the Confederate Alexander, it also constructed the myth of his opposition to slavery and the fact that he never owned any slaves means he was a kind and compassionate man where slaves were concerned. He is recorded in an Alexandria newspaper for how harshly he treated the slaves that his wife inherited, beating personally a captured runaway near to death.

I'm not a fan of Bobby Lee, and I am a big fan of Grant. Grant actually did own a slave, and in the same year he sold his watch to buy his children Christmas gifts, he set that slave free rather than sell him for what would have been a decent chunk of change. He had already earned the dislike of the locals in St Louis because while he did own the slave he received as a wedding gift from his in laws, he insisted on paying him a wage to help him clear a field and build Hardscrabble the home he built for himself and his wife. Grant was a thoroughly decent and honest man who the neo confederates tried more or less successfully to paint as an incompetent drunk who got lucky instead of the absolute military genius he was. It was hard to square the circle of him being such a dope when he in fact kicked the Army of Northern Virginia all over northern Virginia until he finally destroyed it. Even more so his terms of surrender in which he probably saved most of the senior Confederate Generals from being hung. That more than anything else is why the "Lost Cause" mythology didn't take root until he was safely dead. He was the better soldier and the better man, and even those whom he defeated had to admit it.

Grant was the only general in the Civil War who captured an entire enemy army by forcing its commanders to surrender ...

... and he did it three times.

Yes I've heard all the Lee did this and Lee did that stuff. It's much easier to fight from a defensive position than an offensive position, especially when you are outnumbered. Lee learned this at Antietam and Gettysburg, but he essentially destroyed his army by doing so.

Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:04 am Grant was the only general in the Civil War who captured an entire enemy army by forcing its commanders to surrender ...

... and he did it three times.

No, George Thomas destroyed the Army of the Tennessee at Nashville and John Bell Hood surrendered what was left on December 16th, 1864.

Re: Lee, I quote Lear:

“Not being the worst, stands in some rank of praise.”

Gregg wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:48 pm

Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:04 am Grant was the only general in the Civil War who captured an entire enemy army by forcing its commanders to surrender ...

... and he did it three times.

No, George Thomas destroyed the Army of the Tennessee at Nashville and John Bell Hood surrendered what was left on December 16th, 1864.

But Paul Revere rode and warned the Confederate patriots that the union was coming to take away their guns, and slaves, though the war had nothing to do with slavery. He did this after rode to warn the British, and the unionists, that they cannot take away our guns, or slaves, because we will be free, and so will our slaves be free to be our slaves because the Civil War was not about slavery.

You’ve been reading Texas high school history books?

roadscholar wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:57 pm Re: Lee, I quote Lear:

“Not being the worst, stands in some rank of praise.”

He is still a fascinating person to me. I've been setting under that statue on Confederate Avenue since I was a boy, and for many years, even after I had joined the Army and had a low level but still professional education in that stuff, I wondered what I was missing.

Reading Shelby Foote, James McPherson and Bruce Catton is excellent, but all of them, Shelby especially, make Lee into The Marble Man. It wasn't until I got into lesser known but more scholarly authors that the cracks seemed to surface and finally one day, on top of the Pennsylvania Memorial, I decided that there was no secret, Lee just wasn't as good as he was lucky. I then closed the book on "Lee's Genius" and when you do that, and go back to the beginning, you see the Civil War in an entirely different light.

Grant was, undoubtedly, the Union's best. Lee was one of the Confederacies betters but I can think of two who are better in my mind.

northland10 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:01 pm

Gregg wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:48 pm

Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:04 am Grant was the only general in the Civil War who captured an entire enemy army by forcing its commanders to surrender ...

... and he did it three times.

No, George Thomas destroyed the Army of the Tennessee at Nashville and John Bell Hood surrendered what was left on December 16th, 1864.

But Paul Revere rode and warned the Confederate patriots that the union was coming to take away their guns, and slaves, though the war had nothing to do with slavery. He did this after rode to warn the British, and the unionists, that they cannot take away our guns, or slaves, because we will be free, and so will our slaves be free to be our slaves because the Civil War was not about slavery.

And don’t forget - George Washington’s army took over the airports. We mustn’t allow that fact to be lost to memory.

Maybenaut wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:59 pm And don’t forget - George Washington’s army took over the airports. We mustn’t allow that fact to be lost to memory.

"Terminal Two has fallen...PRESS THE ATTACK!!! We will have all the gates by nightfall!!"

Major General George "Maverick" Washington.




I'll come in again...

Gregg wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:48 pm

Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:04 am Grant was the only general in the Civil War who captured an entire enemy army by forcing its commanders to surrender ...

... and he did it three times.

No, George Thomas destroyed the Army of the Tennessee at Nashville and John Bell Hood surrendered what was left on December 16th, 1864.

1. Fort Donelson, Feb. 16, 1862. Surrendered by Simon Bolivar Buckner after the top two Confederate generals skedaddled.

2. Vicksburg, July 4, 1863. Surrendered by John C. Pemberton after a siege lasting several months.

3. Appomattox ...

The original post reads like no one else captured any Confederate Army. Thomas did, once, Grant did 3 times and Sherman also captured what was left of Joseph E. Johnson's command after Appomattox, but I count that one as more of a forfeit.

True, true, and true. I done forgotted about Thomas.

Gregg wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:07 pm Grant was, undoubtedly, the Union's best. Lee was one of the Confederacies betters but I can think of two who are better in my mind.

I have, to this day, never heard an authoritative answer to the question, "Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?".

Can you edumacate me?

You'd have to dig it up to make sure.

keith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:12 am

Gregg wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:07 pm Grant was, undoubtedly, the Union's best. Lee was one of the Confederacies betters but I can think of two who are better in my mind.

I have, to this day, never heard an authoritative answer to the question, "Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?".

Can you edumacate me?

Actually, no one is buried in Grant's Tomb. Grant and his wife are in sarcophagi, on stone pedestals, above ground level, so, technically, they are not buried.

noblepa wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:25 am Actually, no one is buried in Grant's Tomb. Grant and his wife are in sarcophagi, on stone pedestals, above ground level, so, technically, they are not buried.

Much like the Civil War.

noblepa wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:25 am

keith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:12 am

Gregg wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:07 pm Grant was, undoubtedly, the Union's best. Lee was one of the Confederacies betters but I can think of two who are better in my mind.

I have, to this day, never heard an authoritative answer to the question, "Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?".

Can you edumacate me?

Actually, no one is buried in Grant's Tomb. Grant and his wife are in sarcophagi, on stone pedestals, above ground level, so, technically, they are not buried.

Sort of true. Grant's tomb is actually in the basement, below ground level. The facts of that question can be twisted around five ways. I finally go to visit Grant's Tomb in 2016.

Not my idea of buried.

AndyinPA wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:39 pm Not my idea of buried.

If we had your idea of buried we wouldn't have this silly meme going on for, um, like forever.

Funeral trivia...

Entombment - Placing the remains in a tomb, like Grant.

Interment - Placing the remains in the ground, like, lots of others.

Inurnment - Placing the remains in an urn.

It gets tricky at my parish as I suppose the official way of putting it is that we inter the inurned remains In other words, we bury the urn in our columbarium which is not really correct because it is outside and columbariums are inside, which would be entombing the inurned remains. Up north, we called our outside place a Memorial Garden because it was outside.

Words can be tricky. One church I was at had a lecture on the Epistle side and a pulpit on the Gospel side. My current parish only has an ambo.

Y'all can talk about it all you want, I've made other arrangements.

Being Supreme Commander of His Illuminated Majesty's Imperial Air Force has perks.