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Water Troubles

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sugar magnolia
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Re: Water Troubles

#176

Post by sugar magnolia »

Foggy wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:16 am In a sane world, this is when the federal government steps in and has the money to implement a long-term solution.

I jest, of course. :|
That's where the water came from that the NG is passing out as far as I know. I think it's also the feds who have offered a 50/50 cost sharing for repairs.
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Re: Water Troubles

#177

Post by humblescribe »

Foggy wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:16 am In a sane world, this is when the federal government steps in and has the money to implement a long-term solution.

I jest, of course. :|
But---but--states' rights! If states don't want clean water, so be it. :boxing:
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Re: Water Troubles

#178

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Water Troubles

#179

Post by raison de arizona »

From the NBC article:
Attempts to fix the problems have been marred by insufficient revenue at the city level in the wake of decades of population loss. There’s also been a lack of aggressive investment by the state Legislature that to many Black Jacksonians is a painful modern-day reflection of Mississippi’s long-troubled history with race: Jackson is a majority-Black city with Democratic leadership, while the statehouse that is located there has been dominated in recent sessions by primarily white male Republican leadership. And despite Mississippi having the largest percentage of Black residents in the country, all the state’s statewide elected officials are white.
What are your thoughts as to the origin of this crisis, Sugar? You had mentioned a feud between the mayor and governor, I believe?
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: Water Troubles

#180

Post by sugar magnolia »

raison de arizona wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:36 pm From the NBC article:
Attempts to fix the problems have been marred by insufficient revenue at the city level in the wake of decades of population loss. There’s also been a lack of aggressive investment by the state Legislature that to many Black Jacksonians is a painful modern-day reflection of Mississippi’s long-troubled history with race: Jackson is a majority-Black city with Democratic leadership, while the statehouse that is located there has been dominated in recent sessions by primarily white male Republican leadership. And despite Mississippi having the largest percentage of Black residents in the country, all the state’s statewide elected officials are white.
What are your thoughts as to the origin of this crisis, Sugar? You had mentioned a feud between the mayor and governor, I believe?
30 years of non-maintenance on old pipes is part of it. Critical lack of personnel to run the treatment plants. The legislator's attitude that we're a shit hole so the money flows to other places more often than necessary. 3 years of a cut-off moratorium on paying water bills. A 10 year old fiasco of a Siemans contract that was a clusterfuck of epic proportions. The flooding actually had very little to do with the failure of the treatment plant.

As strong as my dislike is for the governor, the vast majority of this situation falls at the feet of the mayor. He is probably the most incompetent one we've ever had. Staffing at the plants is often 2 rather than the needed 12, he will not lift the residency requirement for city employees, the open jobs are not even listed on the city job site, they posted one job on Indeed, he has vetoed the last 3 proposed pay raises for the workers, he siphons off the 1% tax money for other pet projects, and he lies through his fucking teeth every time he opens his mouth. They have plant managers filling in on regular shifts because of lack of workers. People are working 60-80 hours a week with no overtime. He resists every effort to attract and keep qualified people. Hell, he even resists every effort to even bring in contract workers for critical repairs. It took almost a week last year to get the water flowing again because he refused to hire out electrical work when one of the control panels caught fire. He sent the city electrician who worked for the school system. That guy managed to hose things up even worse and we had to wait days for them to order a new panel and get a qualified electrician to install and test it.

I've seen a lot of reporting that blames white flight, but there has been just as much Black flight in the last 10-20 years. Oddly enough, the tax base has remained fairly stable but the money is going to non-critical projects. We now have miles and miles of beautiful wide walking/biking sidewalks with professional landscaping (that has all died from fumes and basically being buried on concrete) along a 2 lane st, a one block long cut-through street (that one is interesting due to the telephone pole in the middle of the sidewalk that makes wheelchairs go out in the road anyway) and a gorgeous herringbone brick curb cut for wheelchairs that has a landscaped area with curbs about 8" in front of it. No way to get a wheelchair or stroller through it. They use federal grant money for these cosmetic "improvements" instead of digging up the damn road and fixing the pipes. They have reduced at least 4 major roads from 4 lanes to 2 to make room for the sidewalks and pretty (dead) trees. The additional stress on the roads has caused multiple geysers to fuck traffic up even worse when they blow up and take months (or years) to be repaired while traffic is re-routed through residential areas. We have temporary sewage by-pass pumps in residential neighborhoods for years on end. The city dumped 45 million gallons of raw sewage into the local creeks in a single 4 month period this year.

And this is why we all have shrimp pots to boil our water in.
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Re: Water Troubles

#181

Post by bill_g »

That's awful Sugar. Sorry you have to go through that. I've been involved in several water / sewage projects in our area, and politics are always involved.

IE: The voters approved building a new water treatment plant, but the bill did not explicitly state we should use the water. That argument forced a secondary vote that was approved by a larger margin than the WTP bond. That didn't stop Those Opposed from finding new ways to challenge it.

IE: The voters approved separating the storm sewer system from the sanitary sewers. How the storm water was treated became a political football for Those Opposed (pretty much the same people).

IE: Getting existing residential properties on septic tanks and private wells to connect to the city sanitary sewer and city water systems when it reaches their home as part of concurrency construction. Ultimately it was resolved by diminished property values as determined by the marketplace, not gummint mandates. How very Republican of Those Opposed. Oddly these homes were difficult to sell until the owners attached to city services.

Those Opposed don't like sidewalks, or bike lanes either. However, they do like public parks, ball fields, boat ramps, and family picnic areas especially if they have massive parking lots ... because it's too dangerous to walk or bike along the streets.

Hopefully you will see a big change how your city services are delivered soon.
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Re: Water Troubles

#182

Post by raison de arizona »

Thanks for that Sugar, very interesting. I poked around in some articles and found talk of taking control of the water from the city to the state or a regional water board. Clearly the city can’t handle it. I would be wary of a state takeover just due to political pressures. Maybe a regional water board is the long term way to go there. Something obviously needs to change though.

Also, saw a report that they had managed to restore pressure, hope it holds this time and they are able to lift the boil water notice.
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Re: Water Troubles

#183

Post by Reddog »

bill_g wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:15 am :snippity:
IE: The voters approved building a new water treatment plant, but the bill did not explicitly state we should use the water. That argument forced a secondary vote that was approved by a larger margin than the WTP bond. That didn't stop Those Opposed from finding new ways to challenge it.

IE: The voters approved separating the storm sewer system from the sanitary sewers. How the storm water was treated became a political football for Those Opposed (pretty much the same people).
:snippity:
I guess I don’t understand how they could not use the water from the new system. Wells?

We’re also about halfway through a (I think 40 year) separation project.
We had no vote on it that I can recall.
At this time our sewer bill (based on water usage) is higher than the water bill.


Following is an excerpt from part of the sewer project. I understood that it’s mandated. I don’t recall getting a vote on it. Might be because KC Is downstream.

…” WHY: The project is mandated by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Missouri Department of Natural Resources as part of the City’s combined sewer overflow Abatement Order. The project goals and benefits include:
• Reducing the amount of combined sewer overflows improves the water quality of our streams, lakes, and rivers and improves public health.
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Re: Water Troubles

#184

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Water Troubles

#185

Post by bill_g »

Reddog wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:50 pm
bill_g wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:15 am :snippity:
IE: The voters approved building a new water treatment plant, but the bill did not explicitly state we should use the water. That argument forced a secondary vote that was approved by a larger margin than the WTP bond. That didn't stop Those Opposed from finding new ways to challenge it.

IE: The voters approved separating the storm sewer system from the sanitary sewers. How the storm water was treated became a political football for Those Opposed (pretty much the same people).
:snippity:
I guess I don’t understand how they could not use the water from the new system. Wells?

We’re also about halfway through a (I think 40 year) separation project.
We had no vote on it that I can recall.
At this time our sewer bill (based on water usage) is higher than the water bill.


Following is an excerpt from part of the sewer project. I understood that it’s mandated. I don’t recall getting a vote on it. Might be because KC Is downstream.

…” WHY: The project is mandated by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Missouri Department of Natural Resources as part of the City’s combined sewer overflow Abatement Order. The project goals and benefits include:
• Reducing the amount of combined sewer overflows improves the water quality of our streams, lakes, and rivers and improves public health.
I think I understand your confusion Reddog. It was my use of the word bill rather than initiative.

The decision placed before the voters was to approve or disapprove an additional property tax levy to pay for the construction of a new city water treatment plant. A number of people opposed the WTP for very various reasons. The initative passed and a new bond was levied to build the WTP. Those Opposed read the language of the newly approved tax initative and found there was no discussion on using the water. So, they took it to court. The court denied their request to stay construction stating the voters clearly approved it by a 2/3 majority, but approved their request a second vote be held to determine the use of the water after the plant was on line to clarify the language of the already approved WTP. That clarification passed with 3/4 majority.

I cannot speak to how MO and KC handle public services, but in Oregon capital expenditures can be put to a vote if (A) it requires an additional tax, and (B) if enough people sign an initiative requesting it be put on the ballot (even if it requires a special election). If no new taxes are involved, government agencies can proceed with administrative decisions without public approval.
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Re: Water Troubles

#186

Post by raison de arizona »

Image

Image
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Re: Water Troubles

#187

Post by raison de arizona »

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: Water Troubles

#188

Post by sugar magnolia »

She lives about 3 miles from me.
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Re: Water Troubles

#189

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

:shock:
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Re: Water Troubles

#190

Post by raison de arizona »

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: Water Troubles

#191

Post by raison de arizona »

Governor Tate Reeves @tatereeves wrote: The state-imposed boil water notice in Jackson is over. We have restored clean drinking water to Jackson.

More work to do to make sure that we do not end up back in crisis. Grateful for all of the efforts of Mississippians and people around the country who stepped up!
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Re: Water Troubles

#192

Post by sugar magnolia »

Only took them 49 days.
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Water Troubles

#193

Post by pipistrelle »

I don't know that I've ever seen it look this bad across most of the U.S.,
Screenshot 2022-10-07_05-49-34-992.jpg
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Water Troubles

#194

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Water Troubles

#195

Post by RTH10260 »

Just seen a news item (w/o link for Rikker) that the lower Mississippi has reached early season low and shipping had to be halted. Reason: no water runoff from the dry western states thru tributaries into the river.
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Water Troubles

#196

Post by RTH10260 »

Idle barges in drought-starved Mississippi River disrupt travel for cruise ships and recreational boaters
One stoppage brought a halt to a Viking cruise ship with about 350 passengers on board.

Oct. 6, 2022, 3:39 PM CEST /
By The Associated Press

The unusually low water level in the lower Mississippi River is causing barges to get stuck in mud and sand, disrupting river travel for shippers, recreational boaters and even passengers on a cruise line.

Lack of rainfall in recent weeks has left the Mississippi River approaching record low levels in some areas from Missouri south through Louisiana. The U.S. Coast Guard said at least eight “groundings” of barges have been reported in the past week, despite low-water restrictions on barge loads.

One of the groundings happened Friday between Louisiana and Mississippi, near Lake Providence, Louisiana. It halted river traffic in both directions for days “to clear the grounded barges from the channel and to deepen the channel via dredging to prevent future groundings,” U.S. Army Corps of Engineers spokesperson Sabrina Dalton said in an email.

As a result, dozens of tows and barges were lined up in both directions, waiting to get by. The stoppage also brought a halt to a Viking cruise ship with about 350 passengers on board, said R. Thomas Berner, a Penn State professor emeritus of journalism and American studies, and one of the passengers.

The Viking ship was originally supposed to launch from New Orleans on Saturday, but the water there was so low that the launch was moved to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Berner said.

By Tuesday, the ship was halted near Vicksburg, Mississippi, due to the backup caused by the grounding. It wasn’t near a dock so passengers couldn’t leave. The ship’s crew kept people entertained as much as possible with music, games and other activities.



https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/id ... -rcna50980
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Water Troubles

#197

Post by AndyinPA »

Nice time for Viking River Cruises to start cruising the Mississippi. :roll:
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Water Troubles

#198

Post by pipistrelle »

Screenshot 2022-10-13_16-55-15-027.jpg
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Water Troubles

#199

Post by raison de arizona »

RTH10260 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:35 am
Idle barges in drought-starved Mississippi River disrupt travel for cruise ships and recreational boaters
One stoppage brought a halt to a Viking cruise ship with about 350 passengers on board.
:snippity:
One of the groundings happened Friday between Louisiana and Mississippi, near Lake Providence, Louisiana. It halted river traffic in both directions for days “to clear the grounded barges from the channel and to deepen the channel via dredging to prevent future groundings,” U.S. Army Corps of Engineers spokesperson Sabrina Dalton said in an email.
:snippity:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/id ... -rcna50980
I dunno, dredge and deepen as much as you want, but it seems to me that if there isn't enough water to fill it, you're still going to end up with trouble sooner or later.
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Water Troubles

#200

Post by keith »

:yeahthat:

So climate change is to blame for (some of) the ongoing supply problems?
Has everybody heard about the bird?
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