Another Shooting

[p0rtia]

Ah, I see. So we need gun laws that prevent six year olds with acute disabilities from purchasing guns.

Alternatively, the parents can be arrested.

[Patagoniagirl]

Were there not fingerprints on the shell casing of the live ammo?
Have I watched too much CSI?
The schmuck who put live ammo in the movie prop is the one who should be held accountable.

My understanding is that there never should have been live ammo on the set at all, and it was the armorer's job to ensure that.

Ding Ding ding! What is the purpose of paying an Armorer for safety with fire arms?!

[Patagoniagirl]

Ah, I see. So we need gun laws that prevent six year olds with acute disabilities from purchasing guns.

Alternatively, the parents can be arrested.

Six years old. Gun in home. Obviously not secured. Bullets in the gun. I don't think this child is a psychopath...I think he learned this by watching how to use it, perhaps saw it used, and having a gun in the house unsecured is outrageous and should be punished. Severely.

[Azastan]

Six years old. Gun in home. Obviously not secured. Bullets in the gun. I don't think this child is a psychopath...I think he learned this by watching how to use it, perhaps saw it used, and having a gun in the house unsecured is outrageous and should be punished. Severely.

Parents claimed it was secure.

Someone's lying.

[pipistrelle]

Did they happen to say how the kid got a loaded weapon?

[p0rtia]

It's a mystery.

[AndyinPA]

I don't know what the disability is, but maybe you don't go out and buy a gun when you know you have a child with such a condition.

[Kendra]

I don't know what the disability is, but maybe you don't go out and buy a gun when you know you have a child with such a condition.

[andersweinstein]

My understanding is that anyone on the set where firearms are used has the right to check it. It might be more common for an actor to ask that someone else show him that it is unloaded. From this sheet of Actor's Equity Safety Tips For Firearms

Anders, you linked the rules for Actors' Equity. That is the trade union for stage actors and stage performances and the associated production crew.

Moving picture and television actors are members of the Screen Actors Guild. I would assume that there are procedures in place for using firearms in making movies and TV shows, but they may not be the same as for putting on a stage production.

Ah, right you are. I was going from memory about the *right* of anyone on set to check (or ask to be shown) firearms, but I can't recall the source.

In fact SAG-AFTRA has issued a statement supporting their actor, calling the charges "wrong" and "uninformed":

​

The death of Halyna Hutchins is a tragedy, and all the more so because of its preventable nature. It is not a failure of duty or a criminal act on the part of any performer.

“The prosecutor’s contention that an actor has a duty to ensure the functional and mechanical operation of a firearm on a production set is wrong and uninformed. An actor’s job is not to be a firearms or weapons expert. Firearms are provided for their use under the guidance of multiple expert professionals directly responsible for the safe and accurate operation of that firearm. In addition, the employer is always responsible for providing a safe work environment at all times, including hiring and supervising the work of professionals trained in weapons.

“The Industry Standards for safety with firearms and use of blank ammunition are ​clearly laid out ​in Safety Bulletin 1, provided by the​ Joint​ Industry-Wide Labor Management Safety Commission. The guidelines require an experienced, qualified armorer to be put in charge of all handling, use, and safekeeping of firearms on set. These duties include “inspecting the firearm and barrel before and after every firing sequence,” and “checking all firearms before each use.”

“The guidelines do not make it the performer’s responsibility to check any firearm. Performers ​train to perform, and they are not required or expected to be experts on guns or experienced in their use. The industry assigns that responsibility to qualified professionals who oversee their use and handling in every aspect. Anyone issued a firearm on set must be ​given training and guidance in its safe handlin​g and use,​ but all activity with firearms on a set must be under the careful supervision and control of the professional armorer and the employer.

They reference guidelines from this Safety Bulletin.

[RVInit]

Were there not fingerprints on the shell casing of the live ammo?
Have I watched too much CSI?
The schmuck who put live ammo in the movie prop is the one who should be held accountable.

My understanding is that there never should have been live ammo on the set at all, and it was the armorer's job to ensure that.

Ding Ding ding! What is the purpose of paying an Armorer for safety with fire arms?!

She is specifically trained and qualified and she did not recognize that bullet was live. It's hard for me to believe that had Baldwin double checked the work of his supposedly professional coworkers that he would have been able to discern a live round when she couldn't. An interesting point is that the associate director, who did double check the gun, and thought (to himself) that the round looked odd, chose not to say anything, handed the gun to Baldwin, announcing "cold gun", which is supposed to mean a gun having no live rounds. He took a plea deal. As to his pointing of the gun, Baldwin claims that Hutchins wanted to work out some of the camera shots she would be getting in that scene and she was directing him to pull the hammer back, point the gun this way, lower, higher, more to the right, etc. I wonder if there is any video of what actually took place and if others in the church would back up that part of his story.

On my other computer I have a copy of the armorer's lawsuit against the ammo supply company. It's super interesting and includes text messages between her and her supervisor. She was aware of two instances of issues with guns on the set, and informed her supervisor of the responsibility to inform the producers, and he threatened her job if she said anything. It seems likely Baldwin had no knowledge of those instances as he was not present and Guitierrez was too afraid of getting fired to tell anyone. But she had the presence of mind to carry on the conversation via text message so she would have a record of how the conversation went.

[andersweinstein]

They [SAG-AFTRA] reference guidelines from this Safety Bulletin.

Those guidelines don't talk about inspecting firearms, but do include this as Rule 1:

Refrain from pointing a firearm at anyone, including yourself. If it is absolutely necessary to do so on camera, consult the Property Master (or, in his/her absence, the weapons handler and/or other appropriate personnel determined by the locality or the needs of the production) or other safety representative, such as the First A.D./Stage Manager. Remember that any object at which you point a firearm could be destroyed.

[Patagoniagirl]

So, Baldwin, an actor and a producer, should know more than an Armorer? Absolute bs.

[Danraft]

In my comment I was referring to the story soon after the accident that some of the movie set staff took that gun and loaded it with live ammo and did target shooting…

Because it was a fun gun to shoot, or a historic gun… so they played around with it.
That’s why there was live ammo on the movie set.

[raison de arizona]

In my comment I was referring to the story soon after the accident that some of the movie set staff took that gun and loaded it with live ammo and did target shooting…

Because it was a fun gun to shoot, or a historic gun… so they played around with it.
That’s why there was live ammo on the movie set.

Idiocy, sheer idiocy.

[RVInit]

In my comment I was referring to the story soon after the accident that some of the movie set staff took that gun and loaded it with live ammo and did target shooting

Because it was a fun gun to shoot, or a historic gun… so they played around with it.
That’s why there was live ammo on the movie set.

I remember hearing about that too, but wasn't sure what the source was or if it was accurate, but yes, this was very interesting, and screwed up.

In any case, the armorer filed a lawsuit against the company that was contracted to supply blanks only. In that suit she claims that the brand new box from that ammo supplier contained not only the live round that was shot from the gun, but seven (or eight, I forget which) additional live rounds. She also says she did not know who brought that full box onto the set as she had normally been the one to pick up the ammo, but in this case her assistants showed up to work earlier than her on that fateful morning, they had already opened the safe, taken the ammo out and loaded it onto the cart. She claims when she asked about the brand new full box of ammo and who had picked it up, the two assistants just giggled and wouldn't answer her.

I totally agree that there were shenanigans regarding the ammo and guns, but I think there is reason to believe that Baldwin and the other producers had no idea of it. The armorer's lawsuit contains some pretty wild stuff, but one thing that seems provable is that she believed the producers should be told at least two previous instances of gun mishaps and her supervisor threatened to have her fired if she told producers about any of it. Her suit contains screen shots of text messaging of the conversation where she clearly is trying to explain to him that they are obligated to tell producers about various accidents involving the guns, and he clearly threatens her job if she tells. Apparently her supervisor was the one who recommended two additional employees, one of whom worked under the armorer and was responsible for at least one of the mishaps involving guns. He knew she would be fired if the armorer told producers about the mishaps, so he intimidated her into keeping her mouth shut about it. She also says that after that conversation, her supervisor told her assistant that Hannah had wanted to "tell on her", which affected the working relationship Hannah had with that person (the same one that ultimately wouldn't tell her where that box of ammo came from and who had picked it up). I think the trial should be interesting. After reading some of the details in the various lawsuits I am really interested in finding out what actually comes out when people are testifying under oath. I also wonder if there is any video from the ammo shop showing any of the people from the set coming in and picking up ammunition, I would certainly hope that if police were aware that the same box of ammo that contained live rounds that they would fully investigate all instances of anyone from that set showing up at the ammo supply company to pick up boxes of ammo.

[Mrich]

This is a really interesting article about the charges against Baldwin:
https://slate.com/culture/2023/01/alec- ... chins.html

[Slarti the White]

Thanks for the additional details RVInit!

It will definitely be an interesting trial. The matters of fact, of course, will have to wait until we get testimony and evidence presented, but what are the requirements for an "involuntary manslaughter" charge and how would the culpability of Baldwin or the armorer change if it could be established that live rounds were intentionally introduced onto the set by a third party attempting some sort of sabotage? Further, what would the third party be facing if their role in sabotage were confirmed? It seems like a felony murder charge (if New Mexico has one) would be appropriate here.

In my (not a lawyer) opinion, assuming that the assistant did indeed put the live rounds on the cart, the armorer is still screwed because she didn't check them herself (which she certainly should have after failing to get an answer from the assistants), but it wouldn't matter to Baldwin (the actor -- the producer might be a different story) either way. In any case, I'm guessing that everyone is trying to cover their own asses and throwing whomever they can under the bus if they think it might help. I wish I had confidence in the legal system to arrive at a just and equitable conclusion, but it seems kind of unlikely given everything going on here.

[New Turtle]

I bet Baldwin never touches a gun or appears onscreen with one again. Because he got charged, other actors may follow suit and refuse. Probably not a bad thing to have fewer shootouts in movies and TV.

[Dave from down under]

I bet Baldwin never touches a gun or appears onscreen with one again. Because he got charged, other actors may follow suit and refuse. Probably not a bad thing to have fewer shootouts in movies and TV.

But how can you have entertainment without gunz???

[Phoenix520]

RV, that whole scene with the armourer and supervisors and assistants seems hella shady to
me. I don’t have the articles on front of me, but my memory is conjuring up a local gun shop owner? Or another armourer? inviting some of the crew to his place ( to go shooting?) before the filming began and something weird about the owner insisting on delivering live rounds (ETA: himself) with the blanks, like there was some plot or plan afoot. Not like a starstruck guy who justwanted to be on set; my impression was he’s in the business too. So he wanted to be there for a reason.

I’m looking forward to the trial, too. I’ve worked on movie and commercial sets before. Every person on set has a particular job to do, and that’s all they do. There’s politics and intrigue, too; seems like that may have happened here. Something hinky in the props and armourers’ departments messing with shit they had no business in.

[Sam the Centipede]

I bet Baldwin never touches a gun or appears onscreen with one again. Because he got charged, other actors may follow suit and refuse. Probably not a bad thing to have fewer shootouts in movies and TV.

It depresses me how many movies involve gunfire, car chases with crashes (but rarely injuries or squashed bystanders) and conspicuous destruction, especially with spectacular explosions. Or guys in garish body-hugging clown suits whose personal mental health issues can only be resolved by beating up hordes of other less well-clad inadequates.

Hollywood folk used to claim that there was no (proven?) link between their products' depictions of violence, retribution, destruction and general chaos and wider societal patterns. Yeah. But "you'll believe a man can fly!" when it suits them!

[poplove]

Multiple casualties reported after shooting in Monterey Park

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... s-shooting

Seeing reports of 17 shot and 10 dead.

[Volkonski]

What we know about the Monterey Park mass shooting

https://www.axios.com/2023/01/22/monter ... california

Ten people were killed and at least 10 others were injured in a mass shooting in Monterey Park, California on Saturday night on the eve of Lunar New Year, according to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's department.

The latest: Los Angeles County Sheriff Robert Luna on Sunday morning offered a preliminary description of the suspect as a "male Asian" somewhere between the ages of 30 to 50 who is still at large.

"We are here to tell you that we are utilizing every resource to apprehend this suspect, in what we believe to be one of the county's most heinous cases," said Luna during a press conference.

"We don't know how many rounds were fired. Different weapons have been described. In regards to the specific weapon, we don't believe it was an assault rifle at this time. But again, that's part of the investigation," he added.
Luna said the 10 deceased victims were five men and five women, but did not give additional details.

Driving the news: The shooting took place at a ballroom dance studio around 10:22 p.m. Saturday night, and the suspected shooter remains at large, Capt. Andrew Meyer of the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department told reporters earlier Sunday morning.

“When officers arrived on scene, they observed numerous individuals, patrons of the location, pouring out of the location, screaming. The officers made entry to the location and located additional victims,” Meyer said.
The Monterey Park Fire Department treated the injured and pronounced 10 victims deceased at the scene. At least 10 other wounded victims were transported to local hospitals, their conditions ranging from stable to critical condition, he added.

[Volkonski]

State of play: Law enforcement said it is aware of another incident in the neighboring town of Alhambra.

"We have investigators on scene trying to determine if there’s a connection between these two incidents," Meyer said. No one was injured in Alhambra.

Luna said that a "male Asian" suspect entered a dance hall in Alhambra with a firearm, which individuals at the scene wrestled from him before the suspect fled. Luna reiterated that officials remained unsure whether the two incidents were related.

[Volkonski]

Steve Herman
@w7voa@journa.host
Update: Mass shooting in Monterey Park reportedly stemmed from a domestic argument.

https://journa.host/@w7voa/109734362385019765