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Man-Made Disasters

Jim
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#201

Post by Jim »

chancery wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:38 pm I'm mostly grasping at straws for some handle to understand what happened.
We won't know for sure for a while, but let's not forget the builder was having money/legal difficulties at the time the condo was built.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#202

Post by Maybenaut »

I think it’s possible that they won’t know until everything’s cleared away. If the concrete foundation was undermined, for example, they might not know that yet. It may be a ling time before they can point to a definitive cause (if ever).
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#203

Post by Slim Cognito »

Just my arrogant WAG, but it could be a perfect storm of incompetence, greed and damn bad luck.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#204

Post by LM K »

Slim Cognito wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:49 pm
neonzx wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:38 pm I think we just need to wait. Many people want answers that aren't coming fast enough, especially the families impacted. They (the professionals) will figure this out. It may take months, but we will eventually get a detailed explanation of the how/why, including computer generated recreations of the cascading failures.
Of course we will wait for the answers but I don’t see why the videos should be off limits. It’s not a contest. It’s not like he’s trying to overturn a final report. And will the families really care if it was pillar 45 that gave out first vs pillar 71? We already know someone fucked up big time. My impression as I watched was never, “Boy, this guy is absolutely right about this pillar or that.” I was dumbstruck the damage was allowed to progress to the level visible on the videos he was narrating.
The fuck up was in every part of the process. It's astonishing that the construction team screwed up, the city screwed up, the owners screwed up, and so others fucked up so badly.

This will sound horrible. Imo, the owners really fucked up. The owners were given mixed messages. But they put their money above their safety. They procrastinated to bicker about costs, which caused a long delay leading to significant further damage to the building. Because of mixed messages from the city and bickering about the cost of repairs, the cost of repairs increased by 60%. This caused owners to further ignore the seriousness of these critical repairs.

The owners were failed. And they failed each other. Many owners lived in their condos only in the winter months. I suspect those owners took these warnings less seriously. Renters were fucked over by owners.

Based on what has been released so far, the condo association tried for 2.5 years to impress on their community how critical these repairs were. Owners have said things like "well, most of what was on the estimate seemed cosmetic". WRONG. I doubt she went to condo meetings where this was specifically addressed. An ex-condo association board member wanted to know why the engineer "didn't tell us the building would fall down!". No engineer could predict that the building would fall. But engineers did warn the owners that the building was becoming unsafe and that they were running out of time to complete these repairs.

I know this sounds like I'm blaming the victims. The owners did what humans do. And again, the owners were failed.

I'm curious if anyone told the owners and residents that they would be forced to evacuate if they didn't pass the 40 year inspection. Evacuation is expensive. I doubt the city explained that to the condo association.

I expect that many, if not all, owners who rented their condos to others will be sued.

I agree with Slim Cognito. I see no harm in discussing new developments. We speculate here all the time. Yes, we must wait for official reports to know what really happened. It will be months before an official report is completed. But certainly we can discuss the possible causes.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#205

Post by Reddog »

https://fox4kc.com/news/son-of-hyatt-sk ... e-victims/

Seems like yesterday, I was a newlywed and not one white hair. It seemed to be similar regarding engineering mistakes, construction errors non-stop finger pointing for years.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#206

Post by RTH10260 »

I didn't keep the link of the Youtube video. Happened also in Florida, a semi-highrise building. Somebody noticed cracks around the 12th(???) floor. The engineers were called to review, the building was evacuated within 24 hours. I understand that the building was left empty several years (7???) until a solution was developed. There was some major construction work done to reinforce the failing sections. The building is now again in use.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#207

Post by LM K »

chancery wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:38 pm Thanks, those are interesting too, but again your examples involve design failures rather than poor maintenance..

What I'm imperfectly groping for is something like this. Many of the experts quoted have noted (preliminarily, of course) that, while the evidence of decay at Surfside was disturbing, they would not have considered it a strong warning of imminent collapse. One of the reasons that the Surfside collapse is so frightening is that it could be an indication that concrete apartment buildings in general have less resilience, less tolerance for poor maintenance, and thus a shorter lifespan than was thought. Visions of waves of such collapses in the coming decades.

If so, one would think that it would be a world-wide problem, especially since building regulation in Miami, for all its flaws, is likely not the worst in the world, and indeed has some strong points. The absence in the coverage of the Surfside collapse of discussion any trend of comparable disasters ..., well, it could be simply yet another example of the extent to which the U.S. press ignores the rest of the world. Or that performing such a study is hard and can't be done quickly. And obviously it's far from clear what a comparable collapse might be at this early stage in the investigation. So maybe it doesn't indicate anything important.

I'm mostly grasping at straws for some handle to understand what happened.
I've been following the issue of building construction and maintenance pretty closely. This building was very damaged.

The final report will probably show several causes for the collapse.

In a later evaluation of the building before the collapse (2020 iirc) engineers tested concrete cores from the building. They discovered that the concrete wasn't adequately waterproofed. Such waterproofing was supposed to be done during construction. The building's concrete was less stable than it should have been. Hurricanes, frequent tropical storms, and sea air is hard on concrete that isn't waterproofed. The concrete in the lowest levels of this building was significantly damaged and weakened.

Under the parking garage was a huge concrete slab. The majority of the slab was missing it's waterproofing; it wasn't waterproofed during construction. The slab's existing waterproofing was no longer operational. The slab should have been sloped to help control water drainage. The slab was built flat. Water pooled constantly, and the water stayed on top of the slab until it evaporated. Thus, for 40 years, a major part of the building's water drainage system grew unstable.

These constant water issues rusted rebar in the lower parts of the building, further weakening the building. There is some evidence that less rebar was less than should have been used.

In 1996, the condo underwent repair of 500 feet of cracks. The cracks were in the underground parking garage. Which is where so much water damage has happened over 40 years.

So far, there's been no info about why the construction teams fucked up the waterproofing.

Some helpful reports:

2018 report
(Opens a pdf.)

New York Times has a copy of a letter sent from the condo association president to residents in April, 2021. If you can't access the NYT to read the letter, you can download it below.

Letter from condo association President to residents April 2021.

There's another report that I'm looking for. I'll post it once I've found it.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#208

Post by LM K »

From WaPo.

Florida condo board saw flaws in original construction in tests after 2018 engineer’s report
Two years after a 2018 engineering report warned of structural damage due to poorly laid waterproofing around the pool at Champlain Towers South, the condo board told residents that there was also no waterproofing at all over other portions of the building’s underground parking garage, a condition that had “exposed the garage to water intrusion for 40 years,” records show.

The lack of waterproofing was one of several issues identified in further testing after the October 2018 report, including two that the condo board characterized as design or construction flaws, according to board documents obtained by The Washington Post.

The installation of waterproofing to protect the garage from damage was a priority item in a $15 million package of repairs that was likely to “tear up most of the property,” documents show. Most of the repairs had not begun when the building collapsed last week, killing at least 18 people and leaving more than 140 unaccounted for.
:snippity:

Photographs of the site taken since the disaster show that part of a ground-level parking deck, under the surviving portion of the building, did sink into the parking garage below. Resident Sara Nir told The Post this week that she saw that part of the parking deck and a nearby pool deck had collapsed shortly before major sections of the building came down.

Khalid M. Mosalam, a professor of engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, said that errors in waterproofing of the slabs above the garage could have led to corrosion and caused the slabs in the parking deck to partially collapse. “Over time, this failure could happen,” Mosalam said in an email.

Albert Bleakley, an associate professor of mechanical and civil engineering at the Florida Institute of Technology, said he believed it was unlikely that the lack of waterproofing could explain the collapse of major portions of the building. The waterproofing issue was near parts of the building that still stand, he noted. There was no ground-level parking deck under the portions of the building that collapsed.

The area around the pool deck and driveway “probably should have had waterproofing,” Bleakley said in an interview, “but both of those areas seem to be pretty far removed from the area where the building started collapsing.”

Bleakley said it was hard to know what to make of the issues the board identified as flaws, because the presentations were not professional reports and did not include thorough descriptions. The lack of waterproofing is noted in an engineer’s letter that he reviewed.

Several structural engineers told The Post this week that video footage of the collapse suggested that it began somewhere around the building’s lowest levels or in the underground parking garage.

The Post obtained documents that leaders of the condominium board gave condo owners during long-running and contentious discussions about a multimillion-dollar repair program that was needed for the building to pass a 40-year inspection for recertification from local authorities.

A slide show presentation dated Oct. 14, 2020, said that contractors would need to “tear up most of the property” to carry out the necessary repairs. “There is no waterproofing layer over the garage in the driveway or any area except the pool deck and planters,” the presentation said. “This has exposed the garage to water intrusion for 40 years.”

An additional bullet point stated: “Where there is waterproofing, it has failed. Water has gotten underneath and caused additional damage to the concrete.”

The waterproofing problem was also noted in a report by a property manager that was attached to the minutes of a condominium board meeting that same day. “Preliminary observations suggest no waterproofing was installed in the drive areas,” the manager, Scott Stewart, said in the report. Stewart did not respond to messages seeking comment.

A second slide show presentation, which was shared at two meetings with residents in December 2020, said that concrete slabs under an inland section of the building’s grounds — on the opposite side of the building from the portions that later collapsed — had been “overstressed since the day the building went up,” a problem that was attributed to a “design or construction flaw.” Necessary repairs to this area would ensure “that the structural slab has sufficient capacity to support the code required loads,” the presentation said. Without elaboration, it added in a parenthetical note that “the original building structural drawings specify inadequate slab reinforcing.”

Plans show that this section of the slab sat above a storage area inside the underground garage. The presentation said of the storage units that “many are rotted or soaked with sewage from repeated leaks.”

No obvious damage to this area of the Champlain complex is visible in photographs taken since the disaster.

The December presentation also said that because of a “design flaw” the parking deck and a driveway — wrapping around what is now the surviving portion of the building — above the garage was “flat with very poor drainage.” It said that the drainage problems “must be corrected.”
:snippity:

The presentations did not attribute the information about the building’s problems. But some details had appeared deep in a seven-page letter sent to the board on Oct. 13, 2020, by Frank P. Morabito — the engineer who had discovered the damage in 2018 — along with two colleagues from Morabito Consultants, his Sparks, Md.-based company.

The letter said that contractors directed by Morabito Consultants had taken samples of concrete from slabs around the ground level of the complex, and that the testing had produced “some curious results,” which were not identified. The letter was first reported by the Miami Herald on Thursday.

Notes in a detailed chart attached to Morabito’s letter showed that several core concrete samples, including those taken from the ground-level driveway and parking areas, had revealed “no waterproofing.”

The letter said that the contractors had removed loose and damaged concrete from a pool pump room but added that they were not able to complete all necessary repairs. “Aggressive excavation of concrete at the severely deteriorated pool corbel could affect the stability of the remaining adjacent concrete construction,” Morabito and his colleagues wrote.

Morabito’s 2018 report said the waterproofing on the pool deck area had been laid on a flat surface rather than a slope, which would have allowed the water to run off. “Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially,” Morabito wrote.

While the report said that “entrance drive/pool deck/planter waterproofing is laid on a flat structure,” the documents shared with residents in 2020 indicate that further testing had shown that there was no waterproofing on the entrance drive area.
More info about the 2020 report.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#209

Post by RVInit »

Here is another guy who is making videos and explaining what we are seeing from the standpoint of stresses applied to the concrete structures. He's quite interesting. Here is a link to a video from two days ago.

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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#210

Post by Volkonski »

Miami Beach building evacuated over concrete safety concerns

https://apnews.com/article/miami-surfsi ... _medium=AP
Residents of an 82-year-old, two-story apartment building in Miami Beach have been ordered to evacuate because of concrete deterioration nearly three weeks after the deadly collapse of Champlain Towers South in nearby Surfside.

The city of Miami Beach ordered the evacuation of Devon Apartments on Monday and is giving residents until next Monday to leave the building, city spokeswoman Melissa Berthier said in an email Wednesday.

The apartment building is about 2 miles (3 kilometers) from where Champlain Towers South collapsed almost three weeks ago, killing at least 95 people. Investigators are trying to determine what caused the 12-story oceanfront tower to fall. The building was in the midst of its 40-year recertification, and documents show multiple problems with concrete deterioration had been reported. The homeowner’s association was in the process of making $15 million in repairs when the building collapsed.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#211

Post by zekeb »

RVInit wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:06 pm Here is another guy who is making videos and explaining what we are seeing from the standpoint of stresses applied to the concrete structures. He's quite interesting. Here is a link to a video from two days ago.

I'm not an engineer or architect and I doubt that he is either. From what I can see those slabs are not a part of the structural supports. What do the pillars, beams and foundation look like? That will tell more of the story.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#212

Post by RVInit »

From their YouTube About page:
Building Integrity is an educational project of Consult Engineering, a structural engineering firm operating in Southwest Florida. Consult Engineering provides owner representation to the condominium and homeowners association industry through consulting, design, bidding and administration for capital projects such as roofing, painting and waterproofing, concrete repair and construction defect investigation. We specialize in waterfront high rise condominium buildings.

The purpose of Building Integrity is to elevate the practice of construction throughout the industry by educating the general public and contractors alike. We trust you will find our videos as entertaining as they are informative.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#213

Post by chancery »

Miami-Dade judge approves pursuing sale of Surfside property that is site of condo collapse

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 54113.html [paywall]
Hundreds of victims of the deadly collapse of a Surfside condo building could expect to see compensation in the near future, as a Miami-Dade Circuit judge Wednesday approved the planned sale of the oceanfront property, valued at more than $100 million, as well as the disbursement of millions more in insurance payments for property and personal damages.
Circuit Judge Michael Hanzman told a courtroom packed with civil attorneys that he wanted to start the process of putting the site of the partially collapsed 12-story Champlain Towers South up for sale immediately. He also wants the court-appointed receiver for its condominium association to begin disbursing millions of dollars in insurance payments to former owners of the 136-unit building.

Hanzman ruled out the possibility of converting the entire Champlain property to a memorial site because any potential sale for that purpose would not generate much money for the victims of the collapse.
With his swift actions Wednesday, the judge authorized the Champlain condo board receiver, Michael Goldberg, to begin the process of selling the property. There have already been inquiries to buy the property for between $100 million and $110 million, according to the court record, but the offers could go higher.

Goldberg said there is a total of $48 million of insurance coverage held by the Champlain condo association — $30 million for property damage and $18 million for personal injury.

He identified a handful of insurers who have already paid or made commitments to pay the full personal injury coverage, while one other insurer appears ready to commit to the full property damage coverage.
Hanzman made it clear that none of the lawyers working on the class-action case should expect to receive any contingency fees as they normally do on the scale of 30 percent or higher in typical personal injury claims. The judge said he would be willing to consider covering their hourly rate and costs at the end.

“There is no legal right to payments of any type for services rendered in this [class-action] case,” Hanzman said, emphasizing that he wanted as much of the recovered insurance and other proceeds to go to the Champlain victims.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#214

Post by Shizzle Popped »

zekeb wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:36 pm
RVInit wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:06 pm Here is another guy who is making videos and explaining what we are seeing from the standpoint of stresses applied to the concrete structures. He's quite interesting. Here is a link to a video from two days ago.

I'm not an engineer or architect and I doubt that he is either. From what I can see those slabs are not a part of the structural supports. What do the pillars, beams and foundation look like? That will tell more of the story.
If it's Flat Plate construction (which is what it looks like to me) then the slabs are critical to the overall strength of the structure. If the rebar in the concrete was rusting due to water incursion then a failed slab or tie in to the columns could easily cause a collapse. Shear strength at the columns is typically the larger concern with this type of construction and once you lose one column it dominoes. But who knows? I'm just speculating based on my somewhat limited knowledge of these things.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#215

Post by Slim Cognito »

I haven't watched this video (yet) but the one I watched a couple of days ago went something like this (partially - and please tell me if my totally-not-an-engineer ass understood correctly what that guy said was possibly one factor. POSSIBLY, cuz it's waaaaay above my pay grade.)

Looking at the pool pump area taken just a few weeks before the collapse by one of the guys assessing the building for its 40 year certification - overhead he pointed out what he said was rusted rebar (?) expanding within and then through the concrete,* causing the concrete to break up and crumble. If, and this is only an IF from a TNAE, I could see that being a biiiiggg problem, along with the flat, nondraining surfaces and non-weatherproofed concrete. There's no telling what else they may find. And how many other buildings are facing the same issues.

*I could see something rusty peaking through the broken concrete (sorta looked like a beam) overhead. It was dark brownish and stained, something I've seen in other places were concrete was crumbling, but whether or not it is a rusted rebar or an I beam, I have no clue.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#216

Post by LM K »

Shizzle Popped wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:21 pm
zekeb wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:36 pm
RVInit wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:06 pm Here is another guy who is making videos and explaining what we are seeing from the standpoint of stresses applied to the concrete structures. He's quite interesting. Here is a link to a video from two days ago.

I'm not an engineer or architect and I doubt that he is either. From what I can see those slabs are not a part of the structural supports. What do the pillars, beams and foundation look like? That will tell more of the story.
If it's Flat Plate construction (which is what it looks like to me) then the slabs are critical to the overall strength of the structure. If the rebar in the concrete was rusting due to water incursion then a failed slab or tie in to the columns could easily cause a collapse. Shear strength at the columns is typically the larger concern with this type of construction and once you lose one column it dominoes. But who knows? I'm just speculating based on my somewhat limited knowledge of these things.
It was Flat Plate construction. The slabs were critical for structural integrity. To date, the lack of waterproofing of the slabs, which caused rusting of the rebar in the slabs and columns, is being investigated as the primary cause.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#217

Post by LM K »

Volkonski wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:31 pm Miami Beach building evacuated over concrete safety concerns

https://apnews.com/article/miami-surfsi ... _medium=AP
Residents of an 82-year-old, two-story apartment building in Miami Beach have been ordered to evacuate because of concrete deterioration nearly three weeks after the deadly collapse of Champlain Towers South in nearby Surfside.

The city of Miami Beach ordered the evacuation of Devon Apartments on Monday and is giving residents until next Monday to leave the building, city spokeswoman Melissa Berthier said in an email Wednesday.

The apartment building is about 2 miles (3 kilometers) from where Champlain Towers South collapsed almost three weeks ago, killing at least 95 people. Investigators are trying to determine what caused the 12-story oceanfront tower to fall. The building was in the midst of its 40-year recertification, and documents show multiple problems with concrete deterioration had been reported. The homeowner’s association was in the process of making $15 million in repairs when the building collapsed.
This is the 3rd residential building deemed unsafe since Champlain Tower collapsed. 1 has been completely evacuated. This building is required to be evacuated by July 14. The 3rd building remains occupied but with a "stay at your risk" warning.

And the upper floors of the Miami-Dade Courthouse have been evacuated.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#218

Post by Volkonski »



Another.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#219

Post by LM K »

Crestview was a disaster waiting to happen. It was under threat of closure in May. The condo was 10 years past its 49 year recertification requirement. It's due for it's 50 year recertification.

The condo had been collecting special assessment fees but no repairs were started.
Four unit owners at Crestview Towers, the North Miami Beach condominium evacuated last week over an engineer’s findings that it was structurally unsafe, sued the association for allegedly failing to make repairs.

Crestview Towers Condominium Association in 2019 said it would levy assessments to fix wall cracks, painting and window improvements. But it seems that these repairs were not completed,
said attorney Paul Arcia, who filed the complaint in Miami-Dade Circuit Court on Wednesday on behalf of the unit owners. The two-year assessments ranged from $96 to $122 per unit, according to an email blast sent to owners.

“It looks like they did not do any of the repairs, despite the fact that they collected the special assessments,” Arcia said.


Crestview’s condo association and its attorney Mariel Tollinchi did not return requests for comment on the suit.

Arcia said allegations related to the lack of repairs are based on a B & A Engineering report that found the building structurally and electrically unsafe. The report is dated Jan. 11 but was filed to the city on Friday, prompting the immediate evacuation of more than 300 residents at the 152-unit Crestview at 2025 Northeast 164th Street.
:snippity:

The 2019 Crestview email blast to residents also said a generator would be fixed, but it is unclear if it was covered by the assessments. The B & A report determined an emergency generator did not work at the time of inspection. It also found cracks, spalled concrete and rebar, and distressed beams and columns.

In March, the condo management firm also told residents the city had sent notices saying that it would close the building
, the suit says.

“The management company further stated, ‘As you will know, nothing has ever been fixed in this building,’” according to the complaint.
:snippity:

The association also allegedly failed to complete a Miami-Dade County requirement for a 40-year recertification. Built in 1972, Crestview’s recertification was due in 2012. A slew of planned repairs were posted on the building’s website roughly two weeks before the evacuation, but they are “very generic and did not talk about anything that was addressed in the engineer’s report,” Arcia said.

While a condo tower is not expected to immediately complete needed repairs at the 40-year mark, Crestview does not seem to have a definitive work plan outlined 10 years later after its recertification was due, he said.
:snippity:
A new engineer's report asserts that the building is safe to reopen and may remain occupied during repairs.

The new engineer's report gives the condo association 45 days to get everything together to begin repairs.

Right now the city is saying that no one may return to the building at this time. They want records showing that the condo association has enough money to fund structural repairs.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#220

Post by LM K »

Volkonski wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:15 pm

Another.
According to the article, this is at least the 5th building to be evacuated in 3 weeks.

A list of known evacuations for record purposes.

*Crestview Towers. 2025 Northeast 164th Street.
10 story residential building with 156 units. Building had a long list of violations and is 10 years late completing its 40 year recertification.

*Devon Apartments. 6881 Indian Creek Drive. Two story residential building. In May 2021, the building owners had finalized a plan to demolish the building in Dec 2021. 16 of 28 residents had already moved out.

*7500 NW 68 Avenue. A three story residential building with approx 30 residents. Partial roof collapse.

*1619 Lenox Avenue. Three story residential building with 24 units.

*Miami Dade courthouse. Upper floors evacuated.

8 buildings are of concern:

*6881 Indian Creek (evacuated since article was published).

Pending evacuation. Must be evacuated by mid-Aug.
*5333 Collins Avenue. 14 story residential building with 124 units. Has a rooftop pool. Applied to begin it's 40 year recertification in 2016. Repairs that needed to happen for completion of recertification were never started.

Occupancy status to be determined.
*1676 Alton Road [Complying]

*401 Ocean Drive [Complying]

*1000 West Avenue [Complying]

*345 Ocean Drive [Complying]

*1250 Ocean Drive [Complying]

*8233 Harding Avenue [Pending]

*8035 Crespi Blvd [Pending]

Those noted as complying have submitted an engineers report and are working with the city to figure out what to do. Those noted as pending had not, at the time of publication, cooperated with the city.
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RVInit
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#221

Post by RVInit »

Here's a discussion about laws regarding condominiums in Florida. I haven't finished this one, but interesting so far.

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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#222

Post by Slim Cognito »

I'm here in SWFL and I tell ya, the thought of selling this place for a condo has now been put on the back burner...and the range hauled out to the dump...and set on fire.
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RVInit
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#223

Post by RVInit »

Slim Cognito wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:17 pm I'm here in SWFL and I tell ya, the thought of selling this place for a condo has now been put on the back burner...and the range hauled out to the dump...and set on fire.
I think this event has puts things into perspective and brings up a lot of issues regarding condominiums in Florida. Many of the units are purchased as rentals. Those owners aren't living there and are going to vote against any attempt to raise assessments in an effort to make sure the money is there for repairs. I am willing to bet we will find out that these repairs weren't done largely because the money wasn't there to affect those repairs. Owning your own home means you can more easily control the extent to which you want to take chances. Ownership of a unit in a building with 100 other owners dilutes your control appreciably.

No thanks. :fingerwag:
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#224

Post by zekeb »

Build cheap crap and either keep throwing $$ at it or expect it to fall down.
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Re: Man-Made Disasters

#225

Post by LM K »

zekeb wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:54 pm Build cheap crap and either keep throwing $$ at it or expect it to fall down.
I suspect that the building's developer was unaware that the construction company fucked up so severely.

Building in FL need to be recertified much sooner than 40 years
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From "Take the Money and Run"
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