Afghanistan

[Volkonski]

[Uninformed]

“I served in Afghanistan as a US Marine, twice. Here’s the truth in two sentences”:
https://news.yahoo.com/served-afghanist ... 00389.html

[neeneko]

“I served in Afghanistan as a US Marine, twice. Here’s the truth in two sentences”:
https://news.yahoo.com/served-afghanist ... 00389.html

The one thing I would disagree with there is him saying we should not blame american voters. Yeah, politicians were not honest about the state of things, but they told the lies the voters wanted to hear, and politicians who did not got less support from their constituents. The lies were really shallow, it was not difficult to read a little and get a more accurate story, but people wanted to hear what resonated with what they already believed. We can blame politicians, or the media, or pundits, or disinformation, but we can not absolve voters of their responsibility in all this.

[Reality Check]

That would depend on the strategic objectives. Time to finish evacuating? Probably a few months. Time to appear to be leaving on our schedule rather than theirs? Probably a similar amount of time. Keeping a toehold to act as a base of operations? That could go for decades. But any of these options are things the US can and has pulled off and are very different scenarios/lessons than nation building.

Since there has been no official handover, the US could even 'cut a deal' with the remaining government leaders to long term lease the airport if they needed a facade of legal framework.

You seem to be more worried about the US saving face than with us getting the hell out. I think a messy outcome has been programmed for years. The Trump administration made it even worse by kicking the can down the road and caving in to the Taliban. I believe history will show that the right decision was to lance this boil and get it over with. You are also engaging in some Monday morning quarterbacking by insisting we could get a "do-over" by going back in and starting the withdrawal all over again. The problem is that the Afghanistan we are dealing with now is not the one from a few months ago. It is descending into chaos. As we have see today even cutting a deal with the Taliban would not guarantee there will not be bloodshed and violence.

Ironically, I was watching an episode of JAG this morning from 19 years ago. It was about the war in Afghanistan. In the episode there were clips of George W. Bush proclaiming we were in there to win. If there is a god there has to be a special place in hell reserved for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their cheer leading neocons.

[RTH10260]

https:// twitter.com/USATODAY/status/1430927134743273476

USA TODAY@USATODAY

Statement from Fmr. Vice President Mike Pence:
Quote Tweet
Mike Pence @Mike_Pence
· 5h
Praying for the three U.S. Marines and innocent civilians injured in the terrorist attacks near Kabul Airport today. America must do whatever it takes to protect our troops and our citizens stranded in this disastrous withdrawal. God bless them all.

Dear Mike, it's you, your boss the doubled impotus, and Pompeo that are responsible for this outcome. You made the deal and stripped down most of the troops during the time of your former mal-administration

[Jim]

I served in Afghanistan as a US Marine, twice. Here’s the truth in two sentences

What we are seeing in Afghanistan right now shouldn’t shock you. It only seems that way because our institutions are steeped in systematic dishonesty. It doesn’t require a dissertation to explain what you’re seeing. Just two sentences.

One: For 20 years, politicians, elites and D.C. military leaders lied to us about Afghanistan.

Two: What happened last week was inevitable, and anyone saying differently is still lying to you.

I know because I was there. Twice. On special operations task forces. I learned Pashto as a U.S. Marine captain and spoke to everyone I could there: everyday people, elites, allies and yes, even the Taliban.

The truth is that the Afghan National Security Forces was a jobs program for Afghans, propped up by U.S. taxpayer dollars — a military jobs program populated by nonmilitary people or “paper” forces (that didn’t really exist) and a bevy of elites grabbing what they could when they could.

You probably didn’t know that. That’s the point.

And it wasn’t just in Afghanistan. They also lied about Iraq.

[Dave from down under]

Going back in will cost hundreds if not thousands of lives,
And you would still need an exit plan - but with all of the Taliban trying to kill those being evacuated.

Staying till 31 August is possible, but there will be more attacks and casualties - both military and civilians.

Going earlier will be seen as another US defeat.

See if the Taliban is willing & capable of providing some safety - if they are - 1-2 days more of evacuation- then get out and declare “peace in our time” and a “mission success”.

[Reality Check]

The one thing I would disagree with there is him saying we should not blame american voters.

Yes, the buck does kind of stop there.

Some day someone should write a book about what America would be like today if Florida had not been stolen in 2000. I think it would be a lot better place, almost unrecognizable.

[Slim Cognito]

[...
Ironically, I was watching an episode of JAG this morning from 19 years ago. It was about the war in Afghanistan. In the episode there were clips of George W. Bush proclaiming we were in there to win. If there is a god there has to be a special place in hell reserved for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their cheer leading neocons.

Amen

[Suranis]

I'm sorry, anyone saying going back in and taking the airport has no idea what the hell they are talking about. You cant just walk in with troops an sit there and intimiare the enemy with your manly muscles

If you do just sit there, they ring the place with artillery and mortars and pound your troops into paste. Soo you have to go out to patrol the area and that means fighting and troops being captured and rescue missions and fun fun fun. If the airport was in a valley or mountain or something you might be able to set up a defensive perimeter, but its on a flat plain. Its next to a city which means plenty of places for you to set up guns.

So you basically have to sweep the whole city for guns and enemy and all things lovely all the time. It cannot be done. You would be better off abandoning the Airport and setting up a new Evac zone in the mountains or the Pashtun valley. So, yam you are asking to be stuck there for longer.

No-one chose the airport as the final base. It just happened, but everyone who had a clue knew it was totally indefensible once people started getting twitchy. So they got out as many prople as possible before things started happening. That's the hard sucky reality.

[John Thomas8]

If you do just sit there, they ring the place with artillery and mortars and pound your troops into paste. Soo you have to go out to patrol the area and that means fighting and troops being captured and rescue missions and fun fun fun. If the airport was in a valley or mountain or something you might be able to set up a defensive perimeter, but its on a flat plain. Its next to a city which means plenty of places for you to set up guns.

The only thing I can think of is that they drop the whole of the 82nd in, retake all the armour we sold the Afghanis, and go on a rampage. Make a perimeter with extreme violence. And make drumpf pay for it, cash on the barrell.

Ain't gonna happen.

[neeneko]

You seem to be more worried about the US saving face than with us getting the hell out. I

That would be a fair assessment. Saving face is not some etherial nonsense, it has real world implications for how other powers (including the taliban) interact with a nation in the decades to come. Getting out is a 'now' problem, 'face' is a problem for future generations.

You are also engaging in some Monday morning quarterbacking by insisting we could get a "do-over" by going back in and starting the withdrawal all over again. The problem is that the Afghanistan we are dealing with now is not the one from a few months ago. It is descending into chaos. As we have see today even cutting a deal with the Taliban would not guarantee there will not be bloodshed and violence

Quite true, and I I admit this is not a situation I have studied in detail, just pulling on past experince. The question of how to handle earlier stages was a big area of research for us for a while.

Ironically, I was watching an episode of JAG this morning from 19 years ago. It was about the war in Afghanistan. In the episode there were clips of George W. Bush proclaiming we were in there to win. If there is a god there has to be a special place in hell reserved for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their cheer leading neocons.

On my wall downstairs I have a framed newspaper clipping from the first Anglo-Afghan War that used to be in my office when we were studying the problem of the current war. I do have an appreciation for the recurring cycles here

[John Thomas8]

On my wall downstairs I have a framed newspaper clipping from the first Anglo-Afghan War that used to be in my office when we were studying the problem of the current war. I do have an appreciation for the recurring cycles here

Governments exhibiting higher brain function/morals don't invade Afghanistan when 19 of 20 perpetrators come from Saudi Arabia.

[RTH10260]

On my wall downstairs I have a framed newspaper clipping from the first Anglo-Afghan War that used to be in my office when we were studying the problem of the current war. I do have an appreciation for the recurring cycles here

Governments exhibiting higher brain function/morals don't invade Afghanistan when 19 of 20 perpetrators come from Saudi Arabia.

To be fair, OBL had his base and training camps in the mountains of Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia. He was officially a resident of the country. His wife (one of how many?) was the daughter of the then prime minister.

Clinton sent in some cruise missiles to the camps after bombing of US embassies in Afrika in 1998.

The issue here is of course "invade" rather than performing a police raid after the Afghan government declined to become active.

[John Thomas8]

On my wall downstairs I have a framed newspaper clipping from the first Anglo-Afghan War that used to be in my office when we were studying the problem of the current war. I do have an appreciation for the recurring cycles here

Governments exhibiting higher brain function/morals don't invade Afghanistan when 19 of 20 perpetrators come from Saudi Arabia.

To be fair, OBL had his base and training camps in the mountains of Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia. He was officially a resident of the country. His wife (one of how many?) was the daughter of the then prime minister.

Clinton sent in some cruise missiles to the camps after bombing of US embassies in Afrika in 1998.

The issue here is of course "invade" rather than performing a police raid after the Afghan government declined to become active.

"Police Raid"? When the fuck did the US become the world's police force? Those are actual humans in US military uniforms, they die just like anyone else. And invading Afghanistan is as intensely stupid a move as any in all of human history. The Ottomans vaguely had control, they tolerated Alexander the Great, it's an army-eating proposition to take on that terrain. The USSR couldn't do it and they had far less concerns about collateral damage than we do. This shit makes me cross-eyed angry after I spent 12.5 years being on that stupid parade in places we had no business being in in the first place.

[fierceredpanda]

On my wall downstairs I have a framed newspaper clipping from the first Anglo-Afghan War that used to be in my office when we were studying the problem of the current war. I do have an appreciation for the recurring cycles here

Governments exhibiting higher brain function/morals don't invade Afghanistan when 19 of 20 perpetrators come from Saudi Arabia.

To be fair, OBL had his base and training camps in the mountains of Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia. He was officially a resident of the country. His wife (one of how many?) was the daughter of the then prime minister.

Clinton sent in some cruise missiles to the camps after bombing of US embassies in Afrika in 1998.

The issue here is of course "invade" rather than performing a police raid after the Afghan government declined to become active.

The Taliban government at the time had a problem, because Islamic law requires them to extend hospitality to fellow Muslims. Had they sent him packing, they swiftly would have had a problem with Islamic fundamentalists declaring them apostates, which was kind of a major consideration for them considering they themselves were Islamic fundamentalists. Not defending the Taliban, but it wasn't exactly a simple thing for them at the time.

For once in my life, I will refrain from extending my point to a larger message about the negative externalities of religion.

[Dave from down under]

Australia was among other foreign militaries to get out before the blasts.

"I'm very pleased and relieved that our soldiers have departed from Kabul," Mr Dutton told Channel Nine.

"We took the decision to lift the last of our people yesterday and they are safely in the United Arab Emirates."

Which other countries left Kabul before the bombings took place?
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the attacks are “barbaric", but that the UK evacuation operation in Afghanistan will continue for a bit longer.

Britain's Foreign Office also said it rescued three Afghan families whose contact details had been in documents left behind at its embassy in Kabul and seized by the Taliban.

Here's how other countries are tracking with their evacuation missions:

Denmark's last flight, carrying 90 people plus soldiers and diplomats, left yesterday
Poland and Belgium had already ended their evacuations from Afghanistan before the attack
The first Turkish troops evacuated from Afghanistan arrived back in Turkey on Thursday
India said it evacuated most of its nationals from Afghanistan and is doing everything to bring them back home
Hungary says its army has evacuated all Hungarian citizens from Afghanistan of which the defence ministry is aware
The German Defence Minister says her country ended its evacuation mission in Afghanistan
The Foreign Minister of the Netherlands said the last Dutch diplomats and troops have flown out of Kabul
The Russian ambassador in Afghanistan said all Russians who wanted to leave Afghanistan were taken home on Thursday
And Canada ended its evacuations from Kabul airport, a Canadian general said on Thursday

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-27/ ... /100412018

[Suranis]

Governments exhibiting higher brain function/morals don't invade Afghanistan when 19 of 20 perpetrators come from Saudi Arabia.

Yup. if another country had done as much to fund and facilitate Terrorism as Saudi Arabia, they would be Nuclear Glass.

It does not really matter where the people were trained. The Money came from Arabia. The Wahabi fundamentalism came from Arabia. The target came from Arabia.

The other thing, of course, that people forget is that the Republicans had been laughing for years at Bill Clinton and his stupid bollox about chasing one guy, that Bin Ladin Character, and his pathetic organization full of irrelevant Ragheads. They instantly pretended they had been after him all the time when the Sept 11th attacks happened and the US and other media went along with it with the instant memory wipe.

Militarily there was no reason to invade the whole country of Afghanistan. And there sure as hell was no reason to let Ben Ladin go, call him "irrelevant now" and pivot to invading Iraq. Hitting Saudi Arabia would ahve at least made some sense as they were and are as much of a Religious Dictatorship as Afghanistan under the Taliban.

[RTH10260]

► Show Spoiler

Governments exhibiting higher brain function/morals don't invade Afghanistan when 19 of 20 perpetrators come from Saudi Arabia.

To be fair, OBL had his base and training camps in the mountains of Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia. He was officially a resident of the country. His wife (one of how many?) was the daughter of the then prime minister.

Clinton sent in some cruise missiles to the camps after bombing of US embassies in Afrika in 1998.

The issue here is of course "invade" rather than performing a police raid after the Afghan government declined to become active.

"Police Raid"? When the fuck did the US become the world's police force? Those are actual humans in US military uniforms, they die just like anyone else. And invading Afghanistan is as intensely stupid a move as any in all of human history. The Ottomans vaguely had control, they tolerated Alexander the Great, it's an army-eating proposition to take on that terrain. The USSR couldn't do it and they had far less concerns about collateral damage than we do. This shit makes me cross-eyed angry after I spent 12.5 years being on that stupid parade in places we had no business being in in the first place.

Has nothing to do about being the world's police force. "International Law", likely more customs, says it's permissible for a state to defend its sovereignity against another nation if said nation does harbour criminals (and Afghanistan did not intend wo lift a finger - except the middle one), and in such a case it's permissible to breach the sovereignity of said nation. Aka a police raid, not an invasion with intent to establish a longer stay.

[RTH10260]

► Show Spoiler

Governments exhibiting higher brain function/morals don't invade Afghanistan when 19 of 20 perpetrators come from Saudi Arabia.

To be fair, OBL had his base and training camps in the mountains of Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia. He was officially a resident of the country. His wife (one of how many?) was the daughter of the then prime minister.

Clinton sent in some cruise missiles to the camps after bombing of US embassies in Afrika in 1998.

The issue here is of course "invade" rather than performing a police raid after the Afghan government declined to become active.

The Taliban government at the time had a problem, because Islamic law requires them to extend hospitality to fellow Muslims. Had they sent him packing, they swiftly would have had a problem with Islamic fundamentalists declaring them apostates, which was kind of a major consideration for them considering they themselves were Islamic fundamentalists. Not defending the Taliban, but it wasn't exactly a simple thing for them at the time.

For once in my life, I will refrain from extending my point to a larger message about the negative externalities of religion.

That was one cunning move by OBL to marry into the leading family.

[RTH10260]

British embassy left details of Afghan staff for Taliban to find
While militants looked on, Anthony Loyd found startling paperwork abandoned by British officials in their retreat

Anthony Loyd, Kabul
Friday August 27 2021, 12.15pm BST, The Times

Foreign Office staff left documents with the contact details of Afghans working for them as well as the CVs of locals applying for jobs scattered on the ground at the British embassy compound in Kabul that has been seized by the Taliban.

The papers identifying seven Afghans were found by The Times on Tuesday as Taliban fighters patrolled the embassy. Phone calls to the numbers on the documents revealed that some Afghan employees and their families remained stranded on the wrong side of the airport perimeter wall days after their details were left in the dirt in the haste of the embassy’s evacuation on August 15.



paywall https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -pr7vh5db0

[RTH10260]

Just wondering why the diplomats have been fleeing from Kabul and abandoning the embassies. There was never anything in the Talibans publications that they would ransack the premises if kept occupied. IMHO they would have kept the international accord that embassies are protected grounds. Also too a failure of the pompous Pompeo and the doubled impotus for not getting the protection of embassies ensured in the deal they signed with the Taliban. Countries ought to have only reduced staffing to the minimal and keep some security up.

[Volkonski]

[neeneko]

Just wondering why the diplomats have been fleeing from Kabul and abandoning the embassies. There was never anything in the Talibans publications that they would ransack the premises if kept occupied. IMHO they would have kept the international accord that embassies are protected grounds. Also too a failure of the pompous Pompeo and the doubled impotus for not getting the protection of embassies ensured in the deal they signed with the Taliban. Countries ought to have only reduced staffing to the minimal and keep some security up.

Eh, seemed rather prudent to abandon rather than try to fortify. It is an open question how well the Taliban can control its own people, or what rival factions might do in the chaos. Kinda like the airport, if countries are willing to commit the force to really secure a location it might work (and that is IF the embassy grounds are laid out in a way that can be fortified), but it is not something you can safely half ass.

[Slim Cognito]

British embassy left details of Afghan staff for Taliban to find
While militants looked on, Anthony Loyd found startling paperwork abandoned by British officials in their retreat

Anthony Loyd, Kabul
Friday August 27 2021, 12.15pm BST, The Times

Foreign Office staff left documents with the contact details of Afghans working for them as well as the CVs of locals applying for jobs scattered on the ground at the British embassy compound in Kabul that has been seized by the Taliban.

The papers identifying seven Afghans were found by The Times on Tuesday as Taliban fighters patrolled the embassy. Phone calls to the numbers on the documents revealed that some Afghan employees and their families remained stranded on the wrong side of the airport perimeter wall days after their details were left in the dirt in the haste of the embassy’s evacuation on August 15.



paywall https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -pr7vh5db0

Hubs heard on the radio yesterday that anyone stranded should burn all paperwork tying them to any work performed for our allies.