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Ghislaine Maxwell trial

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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#51

Post by LM K »

Foggy wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:23 am
LM K wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:19 am Maxwell didn't only procure children for Epstein. She groomed them. She walked them to his bedroom door. Often she was in the room with Epstein as he sexually assaulted children. And she sexually assaulted some of Epstein's victims with Epstein.
OK, I didn't know any of that. That's what I meant by saying I needed more facts. I haven't really made this case the focus of my life. I don't like to think, or write, about true pedophiles. It's all fun and games when it's Hillary and Comet Pizza and ludicrous right-wing fantasy, but then you run across a real pedophile, and that makes me uncomfortable, so I try to stay on top of the stories without soaking in the details. Yes, that changes the story entirely, and shows that she isn't just, as I said, a mundane and fully controlled collaborator.

So thanks for the facts.

Accusing me of blaming the victims, however, is outright ridiculous. Read what I wrote and tell me what I said about the victims who were "obtained ... for the asshole and forced ... to have sex with him". Wow, I really blamed those underage girls, huh? :nope:
That was in response to Zeke, not to you. In no way did you blame her victims for the abuse they suffered.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#52

Post by tek »

Just IMHO, but there seems to be a lot of conjecture here..
Might be OK to let the facts come out.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#53

Post by zekeb »

LM K wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:26 am That was in response to Zeke, not to you. In no way did you blame her victims for the abuse they suffered.
Who in the F said I was blaming the victims, young lady? Brush up on your reading comprehension. I said I wanted to know the whole story. In your view we may as well skip the trial and burn her at the stake this afternoon.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#54

Post by LM K »

Mr brolin wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:30 am For accuracy, she has been ACCUSED of these vile crimes.

The indictment is simply that, a series of layered accusations that have not as yet been tried or adjudicated.

If she is tried and found guilty, grand and I trust she spends every single solitary moment in prison she deserves.

However lets be aware that the compounding, layering and in some case outright stretching the lines of incredulity of charges the prosecution have built have a not insignificant smell of

"That bastard got away with it by dying in custody...We need to make someone pay for some of his crimes"

Lets be honest, if that fecker was still alive the focus would be on him and her pre-trial arrangements would, in all probability, probably been hard far less severe than appear to have been applied.

It is much the same with all the sound and fury around Prince Andrew.

Is he an entitled, stupid, pompous feckwit with the morals of a drunken stoat and a guiding principle of "But I'm speshul".....I would say yes.
Was he aware of any illegal acts, procuring, abusing or trafficing.....I rather doubt it
Did he have (apparently) consensual sex with Virginia Roberts.....Wouldn't be surprised
Was the act between the crertinous spunk mullet and her illegal in the United KIngdom in 2001.....Nope
Was the act between said arrogant stain and her illegal in NY in 2001......Nope
Has he lied about the act, assuming it did actually occur.......Maybe, I don't know
Will he every be charged with anything....No, there is no "there" there

So.....Am I apologizing, supporting, blame shifting, victim blaming etc for Maxwell.......No
Do I want the victims of these heinous acts have their day in court......Hell yes
Do I think she did some, many or more of the things she has been accused of.....Yep, quite possibly, I don't know, wouldn't be surprised
Do I hope the full extent of legal penalty be applied against her if convicted.....Yep
Do I or anyone else here actually KNOW what did occur other than through the published indictments and the fervid outpouring of press sensationalism... No

The second the court has completed its duty, rendered a verdict and sentenced within the rule of law then we will "know" her guilt. Until then we have supposition and the press.
I absolutely agree. I understand the difference between my opinion and a jury verdict.

I believe Rittenhouse is a murderer. I know he's not a convicted murderer. I also know that being acquitted of crimes doesn't mean someone isn't, imo, guilty of an accused crime. Acquitted is not the same as not guilty. I believe that Rittenhouse's jury was wrong. I also believe that they were diligent and cautious during their deliberations about Rittenhouse's guilt/lack of guilt.

Back to Maxwell. The amount of evidence obtained from Epstein's previous convictions is, imo, extremely persuasive. The stories told by her victims are incredibly similar, and thus, difficult to dismiss.

Your argument doesn't victim blame or slut shame at all. You're discussing the difference between that which is law and that which is opinion.

But I assumed these qualifiers weren't necessary. I assumed folks knew me well enough to know that the qualifiers weren't necessary.

There is tremendous evidence about the accusations against Maxwell. That evidence was obtained through Jeffrey Epstein's trial. The court of LMK believes Maxwell is guilty. But evidence about to be presented during her trial could persuade me to change my opinion.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#55

Post by LM K »

RTH10260 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:16 am
LM K wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:19 am :snippity:

Maxwell didn't only procure children for Epstein. She groomed them. She walked them to his bedroom door. Often she was in the room with Epstein as he sexually assaulted children. And she sexually assaulted some of Epstein's victims with Epstein.

Maxwell is a sexual predator.

Maxwell trafficked women because she could.
:snippity:
Here I have to voice my objection. She did not procure "children".

As some of them were from Europe, the age of consent is mostly 16, no questions asked as of that age, for younger there will generally be the Romeo-and-Juliet clause with the older partner age limit around 20, but that's not the issue here. The ladies that Maxwell picked up would be considered young adults. Also too in Europe prostutution is considered generally a legal activity. From a Europeans point of view the issue would boil down to trafficking, eg the person would have been to have peruaded to serve under false pretense. Also, did the vicitim have the opportunity to leave, eg go and report to a next police station, or flee (as was not the case on Epsteins Carribean island).

Eg the case of the lady that accuses Prince Andrew might not float (from a European pov), she was photographed on the steps of Epsteins mansion, eg she would have had free will to leave Epstein.
Alas, one of the victims was 14 at the time she was trafficked. And most of these victims were procured and assaulted in the US and were/are US citizens.

The US definition of sex trafficking is very different from what you're explaining.

Some of y'all need to do more reading about the psychology of "free will", sexual exploitation, and sex trafficking. That's where victim blaming becomes an issue. RVInit touches on the issue above.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#56

Post by LM K »

zekeb wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:46 am
LM K wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:26 am That was in response to Zeke, not to you. In no way did you blame her victims for the abuse they suffered.
Who in the F said I was blaming the victims, young lady? Brush up on your reading comprehension. I said I wanted to know the whole story. In your view we may as well skip the trial and burn her at the stake this afternoon.
To quote you:
I'd like to know if the victims had a way out and chose to not take it or if they felt they were being held against their will. Where did the victims come from? Where were their parents? As Foggy says, facts are nice.
You're blaming the victim when you imply that they should have left if they could. You're implying that if a victim doesn't get away it's because the victim didn't fight hard enough to get away, and thus, if they didn't fight, they aren't really victims.

"Free will" to be victimized? Seriously?

And you're blaming parents for not prevent their child from being sexually exploited, trafficked, and assaulted.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#57

Post by Patagoniagirl »

I'm surprised and frankly disappointed in some posts here. There are specific reasons why we have age-related consent laws. Like statutory rape laws. We should know, I thought, manipulation of young girls (and women) in sex trafficking situations.

Maxwell went shopping for vulnerable young girls for Epstein and herself, and she provided cover for him. She's no different than Gaetz and his buddy except she did it on a bigger scale.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#58

Post by LM K »

Patagoniagirl wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:52 pm I'm surprised and frankly disappointed in some posts here. There are specific reasons why we have age-related consent laws. Like statutory rape laws. We should know, I thought, manipulation of young girls (and women) in sex trafficking situations.

Maxwell went shopping for vulnerable young girls for Epstein and herself, and she provided cover for him. She's no different than Gaetz and his buddy except she did it on a bigger scale.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#59

Post by RVInit »

RTH10260 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:16 am
LM K wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:19 am :snippity:

Maxwell didn't only procure children for Epstein. She groomed them. She walked them to his bedroom door. Often she was in the room with Epstein as he sexually assaulted children. And she sexually assaulted some of Epstein's victims with Epstein.

Maxwell is a sexual predator.

Maxwell trafficked women because she could.
:snippity:
Here I have to voice my objection. She did not procure "children".

As some of them were from Europe, the age of consent is mostly 16, no questions asked as of that age, for younger there will generally be the Romeo-and-Juliet clause with the older partner age limit around 20, but that's not the issue here. The ladies that Maxwell picked up would be considered young adults. Also too in Europe prostutution is considered generally a legal activity. From a Europeans point of view the issue would boil down to trafficking, eg the person would have been to have peruaded to serve under false pretense. Also, did the vicitim have the opportunity to leave, eg go and report to a next police station, or flee (as was not the case on Epsteins Carribean island).

Eg the case of the lady that accuses Prince Andrew might not float (from a European pov), she was photographed on the steps of Epsteins mansion, eg she would have had free will to leave Epstein.
Whether or not these are consensual acts is not as cut and dried as people think and has nothing to do with whether or not the victim actively struggles during any particular sexual act. Many victims of sexual abuse can be manipulated into "consenting" but it isn't actual consent, it's careful and constant grooming and manipulation, including making the victim feel guilty about not wanting to participate.

If you need more explanation of the kind of psychological manipulation that happens in these cases, look no further than Michael Jackson's manipulation of his victims. They "consented" to getting into his bed and they "consented" to taking part in sex acts with him. But it was far from what would be considered to be a consensual relationship. He groomed them, used various methods of power and control over them, and ultimately had them believing they would be the "bad one" by denying him what he "needed".

I'm happy for those of you that never had these experiences, and not meaning to insult anyone, but those of you talking about consent and choices probably should do some reading up on what grooming and sex abuse is really like. It rarely has to do with someone forcing themselves physically on the person, it's more typically psychological, and therefore may look like "consent" to people who are ignorant of what sex abuse is all about.

And yes, women such as Ghislaine are involved in these acts more often than people know. I have shared a very small amount of information about one of my father's friends and one the things he repeated over and over again was how his wife was soooooooo looking forward to meeting me after he told her all about me. I absolutely believe every word of Epstein and Maxwell's victims, they show all the telltale signs of having been victimized and manipulated by adults. And there is no such thing as a 16 year old that is able to fully consent to having a sexual relationship with a grown adult. He/she may very well be manipulated into not fighting it off, but that is hardly consent.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#60

Post by RTH10260 »

PS. I was not commenting on sex acts, but on the choice of the females to leave the location, or not even to appear at a Epsteins residence.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#61

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

Thank goodness the Fogbow is here to educate about sexual abuse of minors. The techniques and power dynamics are the same as in domestic abuse and elder abuse BUT the victims are much more vulnerable because of younger years and less experience.

There is no consent defense in these cases because minors cannot give consent. The justice system is slow to take on longstanding issues, but finally does, e.g., domestic abuse, #MeToo, Ahmaud Arbery. So too with sexual abuse of minors. These victims have been struggling since 1992 to get their cases tried. Remember, that slick "plea deal" Epstein got and the victims were notified after it was a done deal? These are some of those same victims, I believe. They have waited thirty fucking years for a "real" prosecution!
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#62

Post by Azastan »

RTH10260 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:52 pm PS. I was not commenting on sex acts, but on the choice of the females to leave the location, or not even to appear at a Epsteins residence.
That is still blaming the victims.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#63

Post by RVInit »

I totally understand. I wasn't meaning to pick on anyone, I can come across pretty strong sometimes, it is something I have worked to correct, and it can be harder to do in writing than in person. I was just trying to share some more intimate knowledge of what consent means in terms of sex abuse of children and young teens by older, mature people. And it can be difficult to understand that what may look like consent to people who only have known more healthy relationships is really not consent at all. :bighug:
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#64

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Ghislaine Maxwell trial opens in New York with focus on Epstein’s accusers
NEW YORK — Ghislaine Maxwell, the longtime companion of pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, peddled children to the wealthy investor so that she could continue to enjoy her own lavish lifestyle, a prosecutor alleged at the start of Maxwell’s sex-trafficking trial Monday.

Maxwell is accused of luring girls as young as 14 to give sexualized massages to Epstein at his villa in Palm Beach, Fla., his mansion in New York and other glamorous homes in his real estate portfolio.

Before calling her first witness on Monday afternoon, Assistant U.S. Attorney Lara Pomerantz said Maxwell recruited the girls with the promise of getting paid for what they believed were aboveboard massage sessions between 1994 and 2004.

“While this horrific abuse was going on behind closed doors, [Maxwell] was jet-setting in private planes and living a life of extraordinary luxury,” Pomerantz said during opening arguments in U.S. District Court in Manhattan.

Maxwell’s defense attorney, Bobbi Sternheim, told jurors in her opening statement that Maxwell is taking the heat for Epstein, whose death in Bureau of Prisons custody while awaiting trial in 2019 was ruled a suicide.

Sternheim said she will present testimony about how memories can morph over time, and to suggest that the young women accusing Maxwell were willing to do so in part because it enhanced the payouts they would receive from a victim’s assistance fund.

“You will hear that the accusers themselves were manipulated by those around them,” Sternheim argued. “Especially by civil attorneys who saw Epstein and [Maxwell] as easy targets for lawsuits and, of course, money.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#65

Post by Kendra »

So, will this defense attorney mention bare feet and dirty toenails? :sarcasm:
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#66

Post by Patagoniagirl »

RVInit wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:16 pm I totally understand. I wasn't meaning to pick on anyone, I can come across pretty strong sometimes, it is something I have worked to correct, and it can be harder to do in writing than in person. I was just trying to share some more intimate knowledge of what consent means in terms of sex abuse of children and young teens by older, mature people. And it can be difficult to understand that what may look like consent to people who only have known more healthy relationships is really not consent at all. :bighug:
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#67

Post by Maybenaut »

Maybenaut wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:54 pm Ghislaine Maxwell trial opens in New York with focus on Epstein’s accusers

“You will hear that the accusers themselves were manipulated by those around them,” Sternheim argued. “Especially by civil attorneys who saw Epstein and [Maxwell] as easy targets for lawsuits and, of course, money.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html
:think: Maybe they were "easy targets" because there was a whole lot of there there.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#68

Post by Patagoniagirl »

tek wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:36 am Just IMHO, but there seems to be a lot of conjecture here..
Might be OK to let the facts come out.
Like the conjecture in the other trials we conjecture about here?
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#69

Post by Foggy »

I won't even make this off-topic: I have said it before, but here is a part of my life.

My first true love and long-term girlfriend was 17 when we met; I was 21. She picked me, not the other way around. I had seen her around, she was very cute, but I knew she was young.

She was not a virgin. She bought a diaphragm and taught herself how to use it. Who was giving consent? I was. I let her lead the charge, every step of the way. I mean, I knew she was 17 and I was NOT going to take advantage of her. I did, however, let her take advantage of me; in fact, I was easy. :biggrin:

We took a deep breath on her 18th birthday. We stayed together for three and a half years. She was a nurse practioner at Johns Hopkins last time I checked our high school alumni website. A smart and beautiful lady, I will never be sorry for having sex with her when she was a little underage.

I know my experience has nothing at all to compare with what happened to these young ladies, allegedly. But I feel like I should share my personal experience before making too many comments about this case. For example, I knew her 17 year old friend who was having sex with every rock star she could, like she was collecting notches on a gun belt. Not all 17 year olds are the same.

In fact ... sit down if you aren't already ... some girls are bigger than others (and some girls' mothers are bigger than other girls' mothers). Crank it up.

Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#70

Post by Patagoniagirl »

You weren't 40. She wasnt targeted by tour socialite friend to have sex with her 40 year old friend and pawned off on his friends. Difference.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#71

Post by LM K »

Patagoniagirl wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:38 pm You weren't 40. She wasnt targeted by tour socialite friend to have sex with her 40 year old friend and pawned off on his friends. Difference.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#72

Post by LM K »

Tomorrow I will start a forum about human trafficking.

Many of you likely don't realize how prevelent human trafficking is in your city. Enter your "city, state, human trafficking" into your browser. You'll be surprised what you find.

I did a very brief search. Two or more trafficked victims were abducted approx 6-7 blocks from my house in Feb 2020.

In Jan 2021, a local first grade teacher pleaded guilty to trafficking children for sexual exploitation. If I wanted to I could continue searching and would find a lot of trafficking cases.

I once had a map that allowed people to search for trafficking cases via location that provided info about the nature of trafficking, who was arrested, and the outcome of their case. If I find the site, I'll post it.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#73

Post by LM K »

Matthew Russell Lee of Inter City Press is live tweeting the trial.

https://twitter.com/innercitypress?t=wX ... lsMww&s=09
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#74

Post by LM K »

From Polaris. The group operates the National Human Trafficking Hotline, provides services for victims, and is a major research group on human trafficking.

Tracing the Patterns of Trafficking in the Ghislaine Maxwell Trial
High-profile human trafficking cases get a lot of attention because they seem unique. In some cases, that’s because of the status of the perpetrators, or because of the lavish lifestyles they show to those who would never otherwise see them, or the massive sums of money involved. But look behind the expensive scenery, or the bold-faced names, and you will often find that the strategies traffickers use are the same, whether they are luring victims to a Miami mansion or somewhere a lot less obviously enticing.

Such is the case surrounding Ghislaine Maxwell, whose federal trial begins tomorrow. She faces six counts, including sex trafficking of a minor and sex trafficking conspiracy, for helping Jeffrey Epstein sexually abuse girls from the 1990s to the 2000s. That’s one notable piece of information to take away from this trial — that trafficking happens pretty much the same way, regardless of the outside trappings of wealth or fame. The second is that traffickers may occasionally get held accountable, but it’s fairly rare — and others in the trafficking ecosystem, including, notably, sex buyers, rarely face very significant consequences.

Understanding the Role of Grooming

The issue of grooming is a key point in the case — and in sex trafficking situations across the country. Traffickers target and build trust with youth and adults in positions of vulnerability, then create dependence by seemingly meeting their needs. Traffickers can then subtly promote the idea that selling sexual services is normal, acceptable, necessary, and even freely chosen, even for children.

The accusations against Maxwell mirror this process:

Targeting Victims: Traffickers are adept at noticing people in need. Epstein was said to target the vulnerable and marginalized, including those from disadvantaged or unstable families, in the foster care system, at risk of or experiencing homelessness, or with drug habits. Victims say Maxwell managed this recruitment, encouraging victims themselves to peer-recruit others in desperate circumstances.

Gaining Trust: Traffickers build relationships with victims, establishing trust by appearing to listen and care deeply. Victims recall Maxwell initially befriending them; asking them about their lives, schools, and families, taking them to the movies or on shopping trips. Being a woman, Maxwell put victims more at ease.

Meeting Needs: Once they gain trust and know victims’ needs, traffickers offer a solution — while also wielding the unspoken power to take away what is offered. Victims say Maxwell promised them jobs or encouraged them to accept Epstein’s assistance in paying for clothes, education, or travel; as a result, victims felt indebted to them.

Normalizing Exploitation: Over time, traffickers condition their victims to believe exploitation is normal. The indictment states, “Having developed a rapport with a victim, Maxwell would try to normalize sexual abuse for a minor victim,” by means such as discussing sexual topics and being present for sexual interactions with Epstein.

Seeking Elusive Accountability

If convicted, Maxwell faces up to 80 years behind bars. But regardless of the outcome of her trial, it cannot fully achieve justice for survivors. Epstein, whose 2019 death has been ruled a suicide, will never face his own charges. Although Maxwell’s trial will undoubtedly shed light on his crimes, survivors and allies feel that Epstein himself has escaped accountability for his actions.

Survivors of Epstein’s abuse emphasized to Polaris that Epstein isn’t the only one to escape responsibility for his actions. Besides Maxwell, they have identified additional perpetrators who sexually exploited them in conjunction with Epstein. To date, none of these people have been criminally charged. Unfortunately, lack of accountability, too, is characteristic of trafficking. Although fame and wealth certainly confer advantages in avoiding legal consequences, traffickers and sex buyers at every level often escape justice for their crimes.

Sometimes justice is hindered by the justice system itself. Many of Epstein’s victims felt silenced, whether because of the powerful figures involved or because they were manipulated into believing they chose to participate in sexual abuse. Moreover, some feared they could face legal consequences if they cooperated with prosecutors because of a Florida law making “child prostitution” a crime — for the child, not the adult. There is no such thing as child prostitution under federal law. But state laws — and society — have both acted otherwise.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell trial

#75

Post by Foggy »

Patagoniagirl wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:38 pm You weren't 40. She wasnt targeted by tour socialite friend to have sex with her 40 year old friend and pawned off on his friends. Difference.
Yeah, that happens to be EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT when I said:
I know my experience has nothing at all to compare with what happened to these young ladies, allegedly
Honest to god, do you really think you're educating me here? Do you think I just dropped in from another planet?

I had a relevant, but very different experience (and I described just how very different, using specific, actual facts), and I mention it purely because it colors my thinking on the subject.

Yeah, but that was different because these ladies had a bad experience.

Oh really? So when I said "I know my experience has nothing at all to compare with what happened to these young ladies," I still need to be told there's a difference between what happened to these girls and my first true love?

I can't think of a way to reword that sentence and have it be any more clear. I'm dropping out of this discussion. I'm old, and male, and white. Obviously I have nothing to contribute. See ya.

And some girls are still bigger than others ... :biggrin:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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