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COVID-19 and the States

We have ALL your misinformation, plus some TRUE FACTS and SCIENCE.
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tek
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#351

Post by tek »

p0rtia wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:38 pm Did not Biden say they would compensate for any state anti-mandate impositions? I recall him discussing making up withheld salaries, but I don't think I'm going to far to assume that this would include fines.
Yeah, and Florida is saying they will deduct an amount equal to any outside assistance.

Assholes one and all.
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p0rtia
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#352

Post by p0rtia »

Can't argue with that. No doubt the courts will, however.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#353

Post by LM K »

p0rtia wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:38 pm
Did not Biden say they would compensate for any state anti-mandate impositions? I recall him discussing making up withheld salaries, but I don't think I'm going to far to assume that this would include fines.
I know he said that for schools. I don't know about the rest of the public sector.
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p0rtia
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#354

Post by p0rtia »

LM K wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:37 pm
p0rtia wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:38 pm
Did not Biden say they would compensate for any state anti-mandate impositions? I recall him discussing making up withheld salaries, but I don't think I'm going to far to assume that this would include fines.
I know he said that for schools. I don't know about the rest of the public sector.
Yep. I was talking about schools. Looking at the post I was replying to, it says he fined "the county".

And let me take this opportunity to spit on the face of this would-be modern Caesar as he romps around DeSantiStan. I bet he wishes he had a summer campaigning season where he could kill whatever peasants were trying to survive on whatever piece of land he decided he wanted to call his own. He is one rotten piece of shit.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#355

Post by raison de arizona »

p0rtia wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:38 pm Did not Biden say they would compensate for any state anti-mandate impositions? I recall him discussing making up withheld salaries, but I don't think I'm going to far to assume that this would include fines.
That was for education, but it did include money withheld from school districts (beyond salaries).
https://www.npr.org/sections/back-to-sc ... ndate-bans
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#356

Post by RTH10260 »

Question about Executive Orders: on federal level the EO is only a directive to the federal government adminstraton and agencies. Contractually it seems they can try and push compliance upon contractors. What about EOs at state level, like Fl and TX, are those directives to all local entities and not only to state adminstration?
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#357

Post by LM K »

RTH10260 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:53 pm Question about Executive Orders: on federal level the EO is only a directive to the federal government adminstraton and agencies. Contractually it seems they can try and push compliance upon contractors. What about EOs at state level, like Fl and TX, are those directives to all local entities and not only to state adminstration?
The federal mandate is also tied to federal funding. Any healthcare facility that receives any money from Medicare or Medicaid must mandate vaccines/testing.

Any employer with 100 or more employees must mandate that their employees vax or test weekly. Employers with fewer than 100 employees that contract with the federal gov must mandate that their employees vax or test weekly.
:snippity:
Here's who's required to be vaccinated under the plan:

*Employers with 100 or more employees will be required to have their employees either be fully vaccinated or get tested weekly to come to work. Biden said the Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration would implement the requirements that would affect more than 80 million workers.

*Federal workers and employees of contractors that do business with the federal government will be required to be vaccinated.

*The Department of Health and Human Services will require vaccinations in Head Start Programs, as well as schools run by the Department of Defense and the Bureau of Indian Education.

*Workers in health care facilities that receive Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements, including hospitals and home health agencies, will also have to be fully vaccinated.

*Individuals applying to become lawful permanent US residents must be fully vaccinated, US Citizenship and Immigration Services announced on Sept. 14.

The strategy also calls on state officials to make vaccinations mandatory for teachers and school staff. And the president called on entertainment venues to require proof of vaccination or a negative test to enter their facilities. The administration is also upping fines for those who fail to wear masks on airplanes, trains and buses.
:snippity:
But whom is considered a federal gov contractor? Colleges and universities are gov contractors. Higher ed is completely dependent on federal funding because most students use some form of federal financial aid. K-12 are likely federal contractors.

While Biden's Vaccine Mandate Will Impact Colleges and Universities, Details Remain Unclear
President Biden’s recently announced COVID-19 action plan has a number of provisions that will impact colleges and universities in the coming weeks and months, although many of the specifics are still unknown.

The administration can take steps now to ensure government employees and members of the military are vaccinated, but other parts of the plan are subject to review, approval, and most likely legal challenge.

As of now, campuses need to be aware of the following three provisions:

First, an executive order directs the Safer Federal Workforce Task Force to draft guidance which will require all federal contractors, including colleges and universities, to mandate Covid-19 vaccines. The guidance, which is supposed to be published by Sept. 24, will spell out details of this requirement. It appears that colleges and universities with a new, renewed, or extended federal contract or “contract-like instrument” valued above $250,000 will be required to ensure that their employees and subcontractors “working on or in connection" with the contract be vaccinated.

At this time, it is difficult to anticipate the full scope of this guidance, such as the implications for remote, part-time, and student employees. While the administration has made clear that this does not apply to grants, we are waiting for clarification whether an institution’s program participation agreement (PPA) will be covered as a “contract” under the coming federal contractor vaccine mandate. Institutions must have a PPA in place to participate in federal student financial aid programs.

Second, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing an Emergency Temporary Standard (ETS) to require all employers with 100 or more employees under OSHA’s jurisdiction “to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work.”
This rule will include paid time off for employees to get vaccinated and recover from any post-vaccination symptoms. OSHA has jurisdiction over private sector employers, and in 26 states its protections extend to state and local government employees.

OSHA said it plans to publish the ETS in the Federal Register in the next few weeks. For covered private sector employers, the ETS will become effective immediately. States with OSHA-approved occupational safety and health plans covering public employees must adopt the ETS or a standard at least as protective within 30 days of publication. OSHA reportedly could impose fines of nearly $14,000 per violation for employers that do not comply.

Details regarding OSHA’s ETS are uncertain, such as who pays for the required employee testing, whether student employees are covered, and which vaccines will satisfy the ETS.

Third, the plan calls on the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services to require vaccination for workers and volunteers in most healthcare settings that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement, including teaching hospitals. This requirement will likely extend to individuals who are not directly involved in patient care.
Florida and Texas are under federal OSHA's jurisdiction. It's quite probable the the attempts by FL and TX are meaningless because all private employers under OSHA's jurisdiction in both states.

https://www.osha.gov/stateplans/

Many more private employers are under federal jurisdiction than most employees, and likely stage legislators, realize.

Employers need to ask their legislators how much their lawmakers will back them up once the fed gov brings down the hammer. And the fed gov will bring down the hammer. The Biden admin knows they cannot back down. They knew that before they issued the mandate.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#358

Post by LM K »

I want to know who pays for testing. If employees have to pay out of pocket to test, they're going to be paying a lot monthly to meet testing requirements.

Perhaps the smartest thing for employers in TX and FL to do would be to have employees pay for their own testing. Give employees who vax a small monthly bonus.

Vax rates would increase significantly if vaxed employees got bonuses and unvaxed paid for their own testing and didn't get the monthly bonus.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#359

Post by LM K »

State Efforts to Ban or Enforce COVID-19 Vaccine Mandates and Passports

The Biden administration
released the Path Out of the Pandemic COVID-19 Action Plan in September 2021. The plan requires employers with 100+ employees to mandate vaccination and require any unvaccinated workers to undergo weekly testing, mandates vaccination for all workers in health care settings that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement, and calls on states to require vaccination for employees in schools. Find the status of individual states’ efforts to ban or enforce private employer mandated vaccinations; mandates on vaccines for state employees, health workers, and school faculty and staff; and vaccine passports, below.
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Lani
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#360

Post by Lani »

LM K wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:10 am I want to know who pays for testing. If employees have to pay out of pocket to test, they're going to be paying a lot monthly to meet testing requirements.
:snippity:
Hawaii State employees who aren't vaccinated go to one of the many places where they can get tested for free.

County employees currently have free testing at work - for now. Several departments on Kauai have 92% to 100% vaccinated. Unfortunately, the departments with manual work (cleaning up the parks, lawn mowing, cleaning crews in offices, etc.) have much lower rates.

For some reason, firefighters are particularly vaccine averse. The ones in Honolulu are suing the county, even though free testing is an option. Now is that the safe test isn't available. (There's a movement to demand saliva tests - the ones that involve spitting into a cup - because swap tests cause cancer. :roll: That test is over $100.)
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#361

Post by Sam the Centipede »

Lani wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:47 am For some reason, firefighters are particularly vaccine averse.
One conjecture I read span out of the a discussion of Oppositional Personality Disorder. Kids exhibiting OPD are disobedient, resisting instructions and requests from parents or teachers, either openly or subtly defiant.

Apparently kids who exhibited OPD are over-represented in police, firefighters, nursing, etc. Why? I don't know, but it suggests the fact that these services require all their members to obey commands (or follow instructions) so one might expect only compliant personalities is misleading. Perhaps gaining the authority to tell ordinary people what to do is a subconscious attraction for some (definitely not all!!) who choose those roles?

If so, that is consistent with that subgroup's refusal to follow vaccine mandates, which are might feel like a teacher or parent telling them what to do, the sort of "eat your broccoli then tidy your room" thing OPD kids rebel against.

No sources, sorry. Psychology and personality is not my field, so this might be goat's entrails.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#362

Post by Lani »

Sam the Centipede wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:34 am
Lani wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:47 am For some reason, firefighters are particularly vaccine averse.
One conjecture I read span out of the a discussion of Oppositional Personality Disorder. Kids exhibiting OPD are disobedient, resisting instructions and requests from parents or teachers, either openly or subtly defiant.
:snippity:
LOL, recently I posted about ODD (Opposition Defiant Disorder) and my encounters with students who had been diagnosed with it. Yes, fire fighting attracts people with ODD. But I'm still amazed at the number of firefighters who are suing over a swab test.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#363

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#364

Post by LM K »

Sam the Centipede wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:34 am
Lani wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:47 am For some reason, firefighters are particularly vaccine averse.
One conjecture I read span out of the a discussion of Oppositional Personality Disorder. Kids exhibiting OPD are disobedient, resisting instructions and requests from parents or teachers, either openly or subtly defiant.

Apparently kids who exhibited OPD are over-represented in police, firefighters, nursing, etc. Why? I don't know, but it suggests the fact that these services require all their members to obey commands (or follow instructions) so one might expect only compliant personalities is misleading. Perhaps gaining the authority to tell ordinary people what to do is a subconscious attraction for some (definitely not all!!) who choose those roles?

If so, that is consistent with that subgroup's refusal to follow vaccine mandates, which are might feel like a teacher or parent telling them what to do, the sort of "eat your broccoli then tidy your room" thing OPD kids rebel against.

No sources, sorry. Psychology and personality is not my field, so this might be goat's entrails.
I'm putting a hard "no" on this.

In adults, Oppositional Defiance Disorder is categorized as Conduct Disorder. CD simply isn't prevelent enough in adult populations to account for or contribute to lower vaccination rates in any specific population.

Statistically 3.39% of males and 1.28% of females have CD. I can't find stats for CD by career. But if we hypothesize and say that CD is more common amongst FFs than other careers, the percentage of FFs with CD will still be tiny. In addition, FFs and LE take psychological tests as part of employment.

FF and LE are high risk jobs. These folks are used to taking risks ... and surviving them.

A fair number of Americans assert that they don't need the vax because:

1. I haven't gotten covid because I'm healthy. I don't need the vax.

2. The vax isn't really approved.

3. Aunt Petunia was vaxed and still got covid!

4. It's the principal of the thing! Gov overreach! Freedumbs!

5. Real conservatives aren't afraid!

FFs will share those same delusions.

So what accounts for low vax rates amongst FFs and LE? IMO, unions.

FFs and LE are typically unionized. Throughout the country unions are suing employers, county, states over vaccine mandates. Employees whom are unionized have the money and lawyers on staff to sue over vaccine mandates and to do so immediately.

We've all lost various degrees of control over almost every aspect of our personal and professional lives due to covid. For some, mandates are the last straw. But mask and vax mandates are pandemic issues that people feel they can try to control if they fight against these mandates. I think it's ridiculous that we have to mandate masks/vax. But some are need something pandemic related to fight. Fighting mandates is a tangible way to fight against the pandemic. It's horrible logic, but must be meeting some kind of psychological need.

Those fighting the vax mandate know they will have to get vaxed. Biden's staff was brilliant in how they shaped the mandate; few can escape the federal mandate. But these folks still need to fight the mandate.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#365

Post by Lani »

It's not just the vax. Now it's the testing option as well. Swab tests cause cancer, doncha know? Ask a naturopathic doctor. I don't think this is just happening near, and there are attorneys taking the cases.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#366

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#367

Post by scirreeve »

Too bad antivaxxer.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#368

Post by W. Kevin Vicklund »

scirreeve wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:44 pm Too bad antivaxxer.
:violin:
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#369

Post by Lani »

Hawaii is doing much better with lowering covid cases. So of course, now rates are rising again.

On my island, infection rates dropped to 4 to 9 a day. Yea us! And then AGAIN the rate increases. 13 cases on Thursday, 17 today. Every time people stop taking protections, the rate rises.

I work from home, so not a big deal for me, but I'm disgusted. We do this every time rates drop and people stop being careful. Then the rate rises. Rinse repeat.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#370

Post by Slim Cognito »

Idiot Florida Surgeon General gets kicked out of immunocompromised state senator's office because he not only refused to wear a mask, he smarted off about her being unreasonable. (she told them she was compromised.)

Fuck him and his aides.

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/46 ... wear-mask/
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#371

Post by Lani »

From a NYT email newsletter:
The brief version: The gap in Covid’s death toll between red and blue America has grown faster over the past month than at any previous point.

In October, 25 out of every 100,000 residents of heavily Trump counties died from Covid, more than three times higher than the rate in heavily Biden counties (7.8 per 100,000). October was the fifth consecutive month that the percentage gap between the death rates in Trump counties and Biden counties widened.

Some conservative writers have tried to claim that the gap may stem from regional differences in weather or age, but those arguments fall apart under scrutiny. (If weather or age were a major reason, the pattern would have begun to appear last year.) The true explanation is straightforward: The vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing severe Covid, and almost 40 percent of Republican adults remain unvaccinated, compared with about 10 percent of Democratic adults.

Charles Gaba, a Democratic health care analyst, has pointed out that the gap is also evident at finer gradations of political analysis: Counties where Trump received at least 70 percent of the vote have an even higher average Covid death toll than counties where Trump won at least 60 percent.

As a result, Covid deaths have been concentrated in counties outside of major metropolitan areas. Many of these are in red states, while others are in red parts of blue or purple states, like Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Oregon, Virginia and even California.
Covid gets even redder.png
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#372

Post by raison de arizona »

Did COVID-19 mysteriously single out Arizona or was Gov. Doug Ducey just inept?
Opinion: Yeah, it’s rhetorical. A report from the Arizona Public Health Association says Arizona is the only state in the nation where COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death during the pandemic.
:snippity:
Using data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the report says that nationally COVID-19 is the third leading cause of death, behind cancer and heart disease. It notes as well that there are five states where COVID-19 is the second leading cause of death.

But Arizona stands alone at the top.

Or is it the bottom?

Yes.

It’s the bottom.

Back in December Humble said of COVID-19's terrible death toll in Arizona, “This is not fate. Policy interventions could have played a much bigger role in preventing what we’re seeing today and what we’ll continue to see in the coming weeks.”
:snippity:
Ducey often speaks about propelling Arizona into the upper echelon of states.

Well, here we are.

Number one.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion ... 381529001/
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#373

Post by raison de arizona »

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#374

Post by Slim Cognito »

I have to get out of this state. (I was tempted to put this in the Florida Man thread.)

https://www.winknews.com/2021/11/17/flo ... from-osha/
Florida House backs moving away from OSHA

With Republicans angry about a vaccination rule issued by the federal Occupational and Safety and Health Administration, the Florida House on Wednesday approved a proposal that could lead to the state taking over regulation of worker safety and health issues.

The GOP-controlled House voted 76-38 along almost straight party lines to pass a bill (HB 5B) that would direct Gov. Ron DeSantis to develop a plan for the state to move away from OSHA oversight. The Senate also is expected to pass the bill before adjourning a special legislative session that started Monday.
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Re: COVID-19 and the States

#375

Post by AndyinPA »

Does anyone know if they can actually do that?
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