Gun Control

[roadscholar]

Background checks stop thousands of improper gun sales every year. A bit of minor inconvenience to sane gun owners is trivial compared to the horrors we see now.

What? It's obscene to make such a blatantly incorrect statement. ATF is not a "minor inconvenience", it's an actual manufacturer of turning honest people into criminals. Gun sales regulated by ATF cost millions of dollars and prevent honest people from behaving honestly.

Fix the mental health system, don't criminalize constitutionally protected behaviour.

You call that perfectly reasonable statement “obscene?” OK then: bite me. How exactly does any regulation turn “honest people into criminals?”

I own guns. Almost everyone in my family does too, and we live in a pretty strongly-regulated state (MD). We all experienced minor inconveniences to get them. Saying it’s some sort of horror story is fucking bullshit.

[Dave from down under]

I don’t own a gun as I have no need for one.

But if I had a need, such as target shooting, I could legally Aquire one without becoming a criminal regardless of the hoops that I would have to go through.

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/online_se ... s/licences

[Gregg]

[MsDaisy]

I think the entire country should follow Hawaii's lead on gun control...

Firearm Services

According to Chapter 134 of the Hawaiʻi Revised Statutes, “Firearms, Ammunition and Dangerous Weapons,” all firearms in Hawaiʻi must be registered whether or not they are serviceable and no matter how they are acquired. The following exceptions apply:
• Registration is not mandatory for rifles and shotguns acquired in the state of Hawaiʻi prior to July 1994. However, one permit per rifle or shotgun was required for acquisitions between 1981 and July 1994.
• Registration is not required for firearms designed to fire loose black powder and for firearms manufactured before 1899, but permits are required.
However, all firearms imported into Hawaiʻi from out of state must be registered. See Registration of Firearms for more information.
On the Big Island, residents must register their firearms with the Hawaiʻi Police Department. Residents may apply for a permit to acquire a firearm or register their firearms at their district police station.
Below are the steps you must follow to acquire, register, and transfer possession of firearms and the hours during which you can register:
• Permit to Acquire
• Ineligibility
• Registration of Firearms
• Transfer, Possession of Firearms
• License to Carry
• Directory of Registration Stations

https://www.hawaiipolice.com/services/f ... gistration

As a gun owner I approve these regulations

[John Thomas8]

Yeah, guns are neutral, you need a bad guy to make a bad gun. I'm with you on that.

But the problem is, the gun lobby has made it so the literally millions of really terrible bad people who have not yet been caught doing something bad all have the unfettered opportunity to buy anything south of TOW Missiles over the counter, and they bitch that they have to wait more than 5 minutes to get a return on that background check that they had their friend who is over 18 (Rittenhouse) or hasn't got a Felony Arrest Pending (Dylann Roof) that the FBI missed or any number of other ways that we, and no other nation, has managed to have more mass shooting events a year than Catholic Schools and the Post Office have holidays.

I totally get the "but why punish the GOOD GUYS who want guns?", but the fact is, those good guys as a group were so zealous and unreasonable in policing their own, so loud and litigious about any incremental measure to try to keep the DeWayne Antonio Craddocks of the world from having more firepower than a motorized rifle regiment.

It has to stop, and the longer its allowed to go on, the more drastic the final solution is going to be.

The gun lobby in this country is batshit insane. Most gun owners aren't in that camp. We actually know they're batshit insane and refuse to be associated with them. GHWBush even dumped his NRA membership. His kids are idiots but he wasn't.

Insisting that all gun owners are rabid card-carrying NRA members is just as stupid as insisting all people for single-payer medical are card-carrying communists. Both characterizations are easy but stupid.

[Uninformed]

If someone in the USA with evil intent wants to get one or more weapons and ammunition there’s no law that is going to stop them, but that doesn’t mean it should be made easy to do so. There are so many guns in circulation and more by the day. You can’t put this genie back in the bottle. What can be done sensibly should be done even though any proposals will be met with intense opposition.

As someone from a country that started controlling the ownership of guns over a century ago the 2nd Amendment is staggeringly beyond it’s sell by date. Conversely I think there should be more provision for target shooting in the UK, including pistols, possibly limiting safekeeping of weapons and ammunition to the clubs or range(s), although security would be an issue and I’ve no idea what the legal liability / insurance implications would be.

[John Thomas8]

If someone in the USA with evil intent wants to get one or more weapons and ammunition there’s no law that is going to stop them, but that doesn’t mean it should be made easy to do so. There are so many guns in circulation and more by the day. You can’t put this genie back in the bottle. What can be done sensibly should be done even though any proposals will be met with intense opposition.

As someone from a country that started controlling the ownership of guns over a century ago the 2nd Amendment is staggeringly beyond it’s sell by date. Conversely I think there should be more provision for target shooting in the UK, including pistols, possibly limiting safekeeping of weapons and ammunition to the clubs or range(s), although security would be an issue and I’ve no idea what the legal liability / insurance implications would be.

The only thing beyond it's "sell by date" in the US constitution is the provisions that don't crush Jim Crow behaviour.

What needs fixed is the mental health care system.

[Uninformed]

Fair enough, it’s your country. If the 2nd Amendment continues to be interpreted as it is then you can be pretty sure that nothing much will change. Mental health checks might stop a few incidents (a worthy goal) but the effect on the overall death tally would be minimal.

[Patagoniagirl]

I read some articles after Sandyhook about mental illness and guns. I’ll try to find a couple in a bit. Per capita, the US is on par with other countries when it comes to mental illness. This included countries with national healthcare and the few without. The only difference when it came to gun deaths and mass murders was:

ACCESSIBILITY TO GUNS

I don’t like guns. I am also an expert marksman with the ol’ M-16 and a crack shot with a 410 in target shooting and clay pigeons. My brother is a career LEO and my son is an Infantry Veteran. None of us feel that the 2nd Amendment was written to mean ordinary citizens should own weapons of war. And that is exactly what these semi-automatic weapons are. They were developed to kill people as quickly and violently as possible.

[pipistrelle]

If the 2nd Amendment continues to be interpreted as it is

which is incorrectly, but changing the interpretation to a correct one would cause massive snowflake melting among god-guns-"constitution" cultists.

And let's call all these "militias" (Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, Wolverine What-Nots, all of them) what they are: Gangs.

[MN-Skeptic]

None of us feel that the 2nd Amendment was written to mean ordinary citizens should own weapons of war. And that is exactly what these semi-automatic weapons are. They were developed to kill people as quickly and violently as possible.

[somerset]

Fair enough, it’s your country. If the 2nd Amendment continues to be interpreted as it is then you can be pretty sure that nothing much will change. Mental health checks might stop a few incidents (a worthy goal) but the effect on the overall death tally would be minimal.

No, it's not just JT8's country, and there are many, many of us that agree that the 2nd Amendment is long overdue for a change.

[pipistrelle]

Fair enough, it’s your country. If the 2nd Amendment continues to be interpreted as it is then you can be pretty sure that nothing much will change. Mental health checks might stop a few incidents (a worthy goal) but the effect on the overall death tally would be minimal.

No, it's not just JT8's country, and there are many, many of us that agree that the 2nd Amendment is long overdue for a change.

Or the unperverted interpretation.

[pipistrelle]

None of us feel that the 2nd Amendment was written to mean ordinary citizens should own weapons of war. And that is exactly what these semi-automatic weapons are. They were developed to kill people as quickly and violently as possible.

The story of Revolutionary War militias supports you.

[Patagoniagirl]

If the 2nd Amendment continues to be interpreted as it is

which is incorrectly, but changing the interpretation to a correct one would cause massive snowflake melting among god-guns-"constitution" cultists.

And let's call all these "militias" (Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, Wolverine What-Nots, all of them) what they are: Gangs.

Agree. My LEO bro said the most dangerous individuals he and his men encountered were Sov Shitizen militia types and domestic violence abusers. The Shitizens are often armed with more fire power than US Military fighting men.

Please, someone explain how the ATF creates criminals out of law abiding citizens. Explain the slippery slope.

[Dave from down under]

Please, someone explain how the ATF creates criminals out of law abiding citizens. Explain the slippery slope.

If there was no law creating a crime
Then there would be no criminals.

To make everyone a law abiding citizen, have no laws whatsoever - simple really.

[Suranis]

Someone on facebook today said that every man between 18 and 45 was in the "unorganized militia" and quoted the code in the law books.

I then countered with a Drill Sargent rant that said you want to e in the militia and own guns. Fine. you are now REGULATED because the second Amendment says WELL REGULATED Militia. Welcome to regulated hell, asshole. Why do you hate the constitution and the Second Amendment?

Oddly he never responded

Even US V Heller actually has no problem with regulations under the second ammendment

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.

So ya, those hiding behind the law and second Amendment are going to get very surprised if this gets pushed.

[SlimSloSlider]

Y’all are gun-crazy.
It is, I believe, called American exceptionalism.
It gets pretty damn close to clinically diagnosable as disturbed.
When Boebert and MTG are major protagonists, one might worry.
The deliberate misinterpretation of the 2nd is pathetic, childish.

[neonzx]

Someone on facebook today said that every man between 18 and 45 was in the "unorganized militia" and quoted the code in the law books.

I then countered with a Drill Sargent rant that said you want to e in the militia and own guns. Fine. you are now REGULATED because the second Amendment says WELL REGULATED Militia. Welcome to regulated hell, asshole. Why do you hate the constitution and the Second Amendment?

Oddly he never responded

They don't like to quote the "A well regulated Militia" part of the 2nd amendment.

Today, we have a "well regulated" Militia in the united states -- they are called the National Guard.

Groups like Oath Keepers or others who want to cosplay/dress-up and walk around with big guns are unregulated.

The 2nd amendment is very outdated.

[Patagoniagirl]

It is not responsible to decent, law abiding gun owners to Not require universal background checks for every sale or transfer of gun ownership.

[neonzx]

It is not responsible to decent, law abiding gun owners to Not require universal background checks for every sale or transfer of gun ownership.

Universal background checks AND a waiting period. The policies need standardized at the federal level, not state. (because there are some rogue states out in here)

[neonzx]

[Gregg]

[Foggy]

I'm just going to say, I know John Thomas8. I've known him online since about 2003 on other forums, and he lives near me. I've met him several times.

He's an Army veteran, and served during the first Gulf War. His son was wounded several times serving this country.

He has some unorthodox opinions, but he has been a responsible gun owner for the almost 20 years I've known him. For the record, I also own a gun, and I don't think my gun is evil. It's never been used to shoot at an Earthling. But if society ever collapsed and we got into a Mad Max type post-apocalyptic movie situation, I'm gathering up my fambly and my gun and heading over to John Thomas8's house, because he knows way more than I do about how to stay alive in a chaotic world.

And we still have the rule about not insulting or making personal attacks against our fellow members of the forum. He's perfectly capable of defending his own opinions, which is why I haven't butted in lately. But I just felt like maybe poking my head into this thread and saying, he's my friend and I'd appreciate it if you'd consider his opinions and think about them for a minute or two before lashing out at him. He's a good man.

[neeneko]

Background checks stop thousands of improper gun sales every year. A bit of minor inconvenience to sane gun owners is trivial compared to the horrors we see now.

What? It's obscene to make such a blatantly incorrect statement. ATF is not a "minor inconvenience", it's an actual manufacturer of turning honest people into criminals. Gun sales regulated by ATF cost millions of dollars and prevent honest people from behaving honestly.

Fix the mental health system, don't criminalize constitutionally protected behaviour.

This implies that criminal activity is a passive act, with gun owners being innocent and unknowing victims. As a life long gun owner, I actually find this pretty offputting.
No, in order to be a criminal in this case, one has to take deliberate thoughtful action and decide to commit a criminal act. it is not forced upon them, and they do not do it unwillingly or without knowledge.

That being said, I do find fault with the ATF's current 'rules apply unless you can buy your way out of them', with many things being restricted by pure cost, and i do have serious issues with 'we wrote these rules so they don't upset the people with the resources to bypass them'. I think I would not be so upset about it if the rules simply prohibited access for everyone.. but american law has never been known for its equal treatment.