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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#1

Post by Foggy »

Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?
(Gift link to the failing NY Times)
There is another, less-known solution in our Constitution to protect the country from Mr. Trump: Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which bars from public office anyone who, “having previously taken an oath” to support the Constitution, “engaged in insurrection or rebellion” or gave “aid or comfort” to America’s enemies.

On its face, this seems like an eminently sensible rule to put in a nation’s governing document. That’s how Representative David Cicilline of Rhode Island, who has drafted a resolution in Congress enabling the use of Section 3 against Mr. Trump, framed it. “This is America. We basically allow anyone to be president,” Mr. Cicilline told me. “We set limited disqualifications. One is, you can’t incite an insurrection against the United States. You shouldn’t get to lead a government that you tried to destroy.”

This was also the reasoning of the 14th Amendment’s framers, who intended it to serve as an aggressive response to the existential threat to the Republic posed by the losing side of the Civil War. Section 3 was Congress’s way of ensuring that unrepentant former Confederate officials — “enemies to the Union” — were not allowed to hold federal or state office again. As Representative John Bingham, one of the amendment’s lead drafters, put it in 1866, rebel leaders “surely have no right to complain if this is all the punishment the American people shall see fit to impose upon them.”

And yet despite its clarity and good sense, the provision has rarely been invoked. The first time, in the aftermath of the Civil War, it was used to disqualify thousands of Southern rebels, but within four years, Congress voted to extend amnesty to most of them. It was used again in 1919 when the House refused to seat a socialist member accused of giving aid and comfort to Germany in World War I.
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#2

Post by John Thomas8 »

If they couldn't bother to use it on MTG and that gang of conspirators, why bother at all?

The Dems stood in a circle and yelled "don't fire, aim, ready" and did doodly squat and now have lost the chance for 2 years.

Ugh.
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#3

Post by neonzx »

He already packed SCOTUS --
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#4

Post by John Thomas8 »

neonzx wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:34 am He already packed SCOTUS --
I'm quite ready to expand it to 13, make it 7-6. Wouldn't hurt my feelings at all. Dems have the Senate, USE THE BLOODY THING!
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#5

Post by mojosapien »

Gina..

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#6

Post by RTH10260 »

"aid and comfort the enemy" like keeping Top Secret documents unsecured at MaL. :think:
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#7

Post by Suranis »

Laws need to be enforced to have any force at all.
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#8

Post by Kriselda Gray »

The problems I see with trying to do that is that - so far - he hasn't even been charged with insurrection, let alone convicted of it, so there's an easy argument to be made that there's "no proof" he engaged in insurrection. And you *know* he'd be hauling that into court in half aa heartbeat (where, for once, he wouldn't be trying to delay things...)

I think they did try to get MTG off the ballot under the 14th Amendment, but the court but she sued and the court said they couldn't exclude her. If it wasn't her, it was one of the other representatives who supported 1/6
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#10

Post by bob »

Suranis wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:18 pm Laws need to be enforced to have any force at all.
The 14th Amendment doesn't provide any enforcement mechanism; it isn't automatic.

It is unlikely that any state election official will decide he's ineligible and bar him from a ballot.

But, as birthers have taught us, many states allow any voter to challenge a candidate's eligibility.

So I do expect ballot challenges on this basis as early as a year from now. And state judges will have to decide whether it can be applied, whether a formal conviction is required, etc.

Recall that a state judge in New Mexico (IIRC) used this provision to bar a J6 insurrectionist from the ballot. But a Georgia judge didn't bar Greene.
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#11

Post by p0rtia »

Indicting Fuckhead is like losing weight: There are plenty of diets to chose from that work, the only problem is the doing of it.
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#12

Post by sugar magnolia »

p0rtia wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:03 pm Indicting Fuckhead is like losing weight: There are plenty of diets to chose from that work, the only problem is the doing of it.
And they rarely stick.
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#13

Post by Sam the Centipede »

Absent a court conviction, successful impeachment or very explicit censure from an appropriate part of Congress, it seems unlikely to me that a court would accept the responsibility for barring Trump. Why would they when the entire purpose of elections is for the collective wisdom of the population to select the best candidate for office?

More briefly: if the electorate wishes to elect an asshole, that's its right and privilege.
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#14

Post by bob »

Sam the Centipede wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:37 pm Absent a court conviction, successful impeachment or very explicit censure from an appropriate part of Congress, it seems unlikely to me that a court would accept the responsibility for barring Trump. Why would they when the entire purpose of elections is for the collective wisdom of the population to select the best candidate for office?

More briefly: if the electorate wishes to elect an asshole, that's its right and privilege.
If the issue ever came before SCOTUS, I tend to agree that's how it (read, this court) would rule.
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#15

Post by noblepa »

I agree that TFG incited the insurrection on Jan. 6. I feel that the 14th Amendment should be invoked to prevent him from running.

That said, even if a court were to rule that he were ineligible, an event which I consider extremely unlikely, he would immediately appeal to SCOTUS. This SCOTUS, if they could, would not only rule that he is eligible, but they would rule that the elections are unnecessary, and would declare him President-For-Life (with the option to name his own successor).

A couple of weeks ago, I posted a video in "The Former Guy" thread, in which it was reported that a group called CREW (Committee for Reform and Ethics in Washington) promised to file such a lawsuit if/when TFG declared his candidacy. He has declared and I have not heard from CREW.

As I said, it is a hopeless case. This SCOTUS would never, ever rule him ineligible.

And forget about packing the court. It would take a law to increase the number of Justices. Such a law would never pass the House. If it did, somehow, pass the House, the R's would filibuster it.
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#16

Post by bob »

noblepa wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:12 pm A couple of weeks ago, I posted a video, in which it was reported that a group called CREW (Committee for Reform and Ethics in Washington) promised to file such a lawsuit if/when TFG declared his candidacy. He has declared and I have not heard from CREW.
I would WAG that CREW has decided a FEC filing is a legally meaningless act. As hundreds already have filed their intent to run; literally any idiot can do it (e.g., Cody Judy).

Qualifying to appear on a ballot likely is the defining event.
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#17

Post by chancery »

A professor at the Indiana University Law School, who has written on this topic, put up a provocative post on PrawfsBlawg on January 10, 2021. https://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsbla ... ident.html

I linked to the paper and quoted from the post on the old FogBow:

https://formerly.thefogbow.com/forum/vi ... 8#p1258227
Let's ask some questions about this language given current events:

1. Is the Presidency an "office . . . under the United States?" and is the President "an officer of the United States?" The answer, I think, is yes to both, though it's a contestable point. (My draft paper discusses this issue briefly, but now I'll have to go back and revise.)

2. If the President incited an insurrection, is that the same as having "engaged in insurrection" against the United States? This is a harder question that would require more thought about what insurrection meant in 1868, among other things. (Such as did he, in fact, incite an insurrection and was what occurred at the Capitol an insurrection?)

3. Is Section Three self-executing? Arguably not. Chief Justice Chase held on circuit in 1869 that Section Three is not self-executing. My draft paper criticizes his opinion, though, and I thought (before this week) that Section Three is self-executing.

If you answer any one of these three questions "No," then Section Three does not apply to the President action's on Wednesday. But if you answer all three of these questions "Yes," then you can reach this shocking conclusion: Donald Trump ceased to be President on January 6th. He is constitutionally ineligible to serve.

I point this out because some litigant will probably argue that presidential actions taken after January 6th are invalid unless they are confirmed by the Biden Administration. Courts, therefore, may have to address this issue. (This could be particularly true for any last-minute pardons issued by the (ex?)President.)

Likewise, if the (ex-?)President seeks to run again, courts will have to address the issue. Section Three claims are justiciable, as courts did address those claims in the 1860s and 1870s.
However, Sam the Centipede and Bob are probably correct about the constitutional right to elect an asshole.
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Is Donald Trump Ineligible to Be President?

#18

Post by Maybenaut »

chancery wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:36 am However, Sam the Centipede and Bob are probably correct about the constitutional right to elect an asshole.
This will be one of those times when whether the sauce is good depends on whether it’s being served with the goose or the gander.

Although the Supreme Court has said that the second amendment is not a relic intended to address the circumstances of the times, they’d likely find that this portion of the 14th is a relic, the circumstances that led to its passage ceased to exist after 2 or 3 generations, blah, blah, blah.
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#19

Post by bob »

Maybenaut wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:07 am Although the Supreme Court has said that the second amendment is not a relic intended to address the circumstances of the times, they’d likely find that this portion of the 14th is a relic, the circumstances that led to its passage ceased to exist after 2 or 3 generations, blah, blah, blah.
An argument against applying the 14th Amendment to the former president is, and I'm not making this up, "officer" as used in the U.S. Constitution and as used in 14th Amendment have different meanings.

In other words, for 14th Amendment purposes at least, the president isn't an officer.
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#20

Post by Ben-Prime »

Sometimes I wonder what position the GOP would be in today if it had as a private political party tried to say early on "We do not consider Donald J. Trump a Republican and will not allow him to run for the Republican nomination" before he had gotten a chance to take part in any Republican primaries, debates, or other events.
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#21

Post by Slim Cognito »

I don't know which party would be in the White House but I bet there'd be a lot more Rs in Congress.
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#22

Post by Kriselda Gray »

Ben-Prime wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:06 pm Sometimes I wonder what position the GOP would be in today if it had as a private political party tried to say early on "We do not consider Donald J. Trump a Republican and will not allow him to run for the Republican nomination" before he had gotten a chance to take part in any Republican primaries, debates, or other events.
Can a party do that? I know Fred Phelps (he of the Westboro "God Hates Gays" Baptist Church) ran for Kansas Governor as a Dem, and didn't Lyndon LaRuche always do his presidential runs as a Dem? I would think if a party could disallow someone running under their banner, those are a couple cases where they would have done it.
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#23

Post by Foggy »

The GOP was only too pleased to adopt Trump, and his supporters were already registered Republicans.
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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#24

Post by Phoenix520 »

He blackmailed them all. Cruz and his ugly wife, little Marco… he had something on all of them, and everyone else. They fell into line with remarkably little squealing. It must be pretty bad, whatever he has.

He’s scum.
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#25

Post by Slim Cognito »

Phoenix520 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:42 pm He blackmailed them all. Cruz and his ugly wife, little Marco… he had something on all of them, and everyone else. They fell into line with remarkably little squealing. It must be pretty bad, whatever he has.

He’s scum.
And don't forget Graham. I will never believe he didn't have something on every one of them, probably with Vlads help, even if he had to set them up.
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