Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

[Foggy]

If they have confirmed what they have and what they don't, they're not going to tell us. I suspect they have a fairly complete and accurate list of what they think is still missing.

And I suspect there's a great deal of discussion behind the scenes as to what to do about it. Because as others have noted, a judge needs probable cause to issue a search warrant for a specific location.

[Slarti the White]

If they have confirmed what they have and what they don't, they're not going to tell us. I suspect they have a fairly complete and accurate list of what they think is still missing.

And I suspect there's a great deal of discussion behind the scenes as to what to do about it. Because as others have noted, a judge needs probable cause to issue a search warrant for a specific location.

Too, also, from reports of Trump destroying documents I would guess that they will never be able to recover all the materials that were taken.

[Foggy]

Yeah, but if they can prove Trump had them, that would make for a much easier trial conviction, imho. Hear me out.

If he goes on trial for documents they got back, some of the emotional punch is missing. He can muddy the waters with all his stupid crap.

But if the case is, we can prove he had more. We're not even charging him for the documents we got back, but these are stolen and missing. These put America at risk, and if he didn't sell them he's still hiding them.

I think a jury would be much more likely to convict.

But the proof that he had them must be ironclad.

[Slarti the White]

Yeah, but if they can prove Trump had them, that would make for a much easier trial conviction, imho. Hear me out.

If he goes on trial for documents they got back, some of the emotional punch is missing. He can muddy the waters with all his stupid crap.

But if the case is, we can prove he had more. We're not even charging him for the documents we got back, but these are stolen and missing. These put America at risk, and if he didn't sell them he's still hiding them.

I think a jury would be much more likely to convict.

But the proof that he had them must be ironclad.

I certainly hope that the chain of custody on classified documents is strong enough to do that, because, if not, WTF?

[Foggy]

There's likely to be zero chain of custody, or I mean, an enormous hole in the chain of custody. Think about it:

There's probably a chain that leads to any particular document arriving in the White House (and being signed for) on some date before January 20, 2021, when Trump left office. And then the chain picks up again when they searched on August 8th, 2022.

But between those two dates, he could have taken any one document to Trump Tower, to Bedminster, to any of a dozen locations. And then brought them to Mierda Lardo. Any number of minions have handled the documents.

So, umm ... chain of custody only since August 8th. Before that, nothing.

[Foggy]

That's the tough part about prosecution for the missing documents.

"Jimmy Down The Hall helped load the boxes into the truck (or plane). He maybe ganked a few documents. You can't pin it on me."

.

Edit: I believe that is the first appearance of Jimmy since Fogbow Reborn.

[Slarti the White]

There's likely to be zero chain of custody, or I mean, an enormous hole in the chain of custody. Think about it:

There's probably a chain that leads to any particular document arriving in the White House (and being signed for) on some date before January 20, 2021, when Trump left office. And then the chain picks up again when they searched on August 8th, 2022.

But between those two dates, he could have taken any one document to Trump Tower, to Bedminster, to any of a dozen locations. And then brought them to Mierda Lardo. Any number of minions have handled the documents.

So, umm ... chain of custody only since August 8th. Before that, nothing.

I meant the chain of custody up until the point at which it was in Trump's hands -- obviously it was broken after that (since Trump has shown himself to be unreliable). If a secure document was legally in his hands, then it would seem that he is responsible for it until and unless the government's chain of custody is restored. I'm sure that there are a lot of nuances in the actual laws being considered, but I would hope that the prosecution simplifies the principle for the jury before diving into the weeds.

[Foggy]

Yeah, but now that I think about it, it's a lot easier to prove a document came to the White House and a lot harder to prove what happened to it after that. And to convict him of stealing the missing documents?

[jcolvin2]

Yeah, but now that I think about it, it's a lot easier to prove a document came to the White House and a lot harder to prove what happened to it after that. And to convict him of stealing the missing documents?

Assuming Maggie Haberman did not make it up (in her capacity as a "friendly access journalist"), a penchant for flushing documents may well establish reasonable doubt.

[Gregg]

Yeah, but if they can prove Trump had them, that would make for a much easier trial conviction, imho. Hear me out.

If he goes on trial for documents they got back, some of the emotional punch is missing. He can muddy the waters with all his stupid crap.

But if the case is, we can prove he had more. We're not even charging him for the documents we got back, but these are stolen and missing. These put America at risk, and if he didn't sell them he's still hiding them.

I think a jury would be much more likely to convict.

But the proof that he had them must be ironclad.

I certainly hope that the chain of custody on classified documents is strong enough to do that, because, if not, WTF?

I said that a while back. I cannot believe that someone can just walk into the secret documents bunker in Langley, grab a stack of top secret folders and cart them off to the White House without someone asking you to sign for them.

[humblescribe]

I think that it would be extremely difficult to present to twelve solid citizens who survived voir dire enough irrefutable evidence to convict him on any missing classified documents that are still at large. As mentioned above, the 18-month gap in the chain of custody is enough to plant more than reasonable doubt. Not only for the peripatetic Jimmy down the hall, but also for any miscommunication between tfg and his minions. ("How did those get there? I told X who said he told Y who then boxed everything up for proper disposition to the various agencies.")

Here we have a case where tfg dragged his feet for over a year. We have a case where the government asked many times to give us the stuff. After two tranches and a sworn affidavit saying that we gave you everything, they still found more stuff. I think the chain of events in this instance is powerful evidence since many of the files were found among his souvenirs personal effects. A normal person would return property to its rightful owner regardless of how it wound up in his possession. I think juries can identify with that.

But I think that to pursue the classified files charge is wrong. I think that there are easier crimes to charge and convict. Obstruction of justice is one. Conspiracy to defraud the government is another.

But this is just the ranting of an accountenant accommodant bean counter.

[bob]

I believe that is the first appearance of Jimmy since Fogbow Reborn.

It wasn't.

But I had to go to Oldbow to recall it was Peter Boyles who invented Jimmy.

[Ben-Prime]

I think that it would be extremely difficult to present to twelve solid citizens who survived voir dire enough irrefutable evidence to convict him on any missing classified documents that are still at large. As mentioned above, the 18-month gap in the chain of custody is enough to plant more than reasonable doubt. Not only for the peripatetic Jimmy down the hall, but also for any miscommunication between tfg and his minions. ("How did those get there? I told X who said he told Y who then boxed everything up for proper disposition to the various agencies.")

Would TFG's ego allow him to say that, though, when his arguments thus far have boiled down to "I have every right to those files, they are mine, and they are no longer classified because I say so with my executive privilege"?

[Maybenaut]

A normal person would return property to its rightful owner regardless of how it wound up in his possession. I think juries can identify with that.

But I think that to pursue the classified files charge is wrong. I think that there are easier crimes to charge and convict. Obstruction of justice is one. Conspiracy to defraud the government is another.

Are you saying it’s wrong to pursue charges relating to *any* classified documents, or only the missing ones?

If it’s only the missing ones, I agree. It would be too hard to prove that he ever had them.

But I do not think it would be wrong to pursue charges on the retained classified documents. There’s a statute that specifically prohibits such retention. The classified nature of the documents is proof that they were not his to remove from the White House, and his claims that they were his personal property is proof of his intent to retain them.

It’s been awhile, but I had an unauthorized retention case a number of years ago, and it was pretty straightforward: If the information is classified and you remove it with the intent to retain it, you’re guilty.

I think all this clamoring about declassification was crazy. He should’ve just said, “Oh, my mistake. I didn’t realize I had that stuff,” and given it all back, and this would all have gone away.

[raison de arizona]

I think all this clamoring about declassification was crazy. He should’ve just said, “Oh, my mistake. I didn’t realize I had that stuff,” and given it all back, and this would all have gone away.

He’s incapable of admitting fault. Ever.

But yeah, that would’ve worked.

[bob]

I think all this clamoring about declassification was crazy. He should’ve just said, “Oh, my mistake. I didn’t realize I had that stuff,” and given it all back, and this would all have gone away.

He’s incapable of admitting fault. Ever.

But yeah, that would’ve worked.

Cf. We only know about this because he told us.

I have no doubt countless people have gotten what they want from him simply by agreeing to keep quiet about it.

If his lawyers and the government's lawyers had quietly arranged a transfer, which is what the government originally wanted, very few people would have known about the retained documents.

[Suranis]

I think all this clamoring about declassification was crazy. He should’ve just said, “Oh, my mistake. I didn’t realize I had that stuff,” and given it all back, and this would all have gone away.

He’s incapable of admitting fault. Ever.

But yeah, that would’ve worked.

Cf. We only know about this because he told us.

I have no doubt countless people have gotten what they want from him simply by agreeing to keep quiet about it.

If his lawyers and the government's lawyers had quietly arranged a transfer, which is what the government originally wanted, very few people would have known about the retained documents.

Ya, people say "he never settles - he goes the distance and drags stuff out for years" because HE says he does. In actuality he settled cases all the time. He would threaten to drag it out but if people pushed back he would fold like a cheap date.

[Maybenaut]

He’s incapable of admitting fault. Ever.

But yeah, that would’ve worked.

Cf. We only know about this because he told us.

I have no doubt countless people have gotten what they want from him simply by agreeing to keep quiet about it.

If his lawyers and the government's lawyers had quietly arranged a transfer, which is what the government originally wanted, very few people would have known about the retained documents.

Ya, people say "he never settles - he goes the distance and drags stuff out for years" because HE says he does. In actuality he settled cases all the time. He would threaten to drag it out but if people pushed back he would fold like a cheap date.

Right. But he could have settled this one, and didn't. Now he's looking at criminal charges. Sucks to be him, I suppose.

[bob]

But he could have settled this one, and didn't. Now he's looking at criminal charges.

Which is, IMO, one of the weirdest parts of this whole affair. Unauthorized retention (of national-security information) is a crime. So when the feebs drop you a nice note asking for the documents back, and tosses in that their continued retention could lead to criminal charges, they're doing so not to be polite, but to create evidence that you had the necessary mental state for the crime, i.e., you retained, your retention wasn't authorized, and you knew you were unauthorizedly retaining.

I presume every lawyer who pleaded with him to just return the documents wrote lengthy CYA memos for the file.

[Gregg]

But he could have settled this one, and didn't. Now he's looking at criminal charges.

Which is, IMO, one of the weirdest parts of this whole affair. Unauthorized retention (of national-security information) is a crime. So when the feebs drop you a nice note asking for the documents back, and tosses in that their continued retention could lead to criminal charges, they're doing so not to be polite, but to create evidence that you had the necessary mental state for the crime, i.e., you retained, your retention wasn't authorized, and you knew you were unauthorizedly retaining.

I presume every lawyer who pleaded with him to just return the documents wrote lengthy CYA memos for the file.

Normally I would agree with that. But tell me you can't name a Baker's Dozen Lawyers who have represented Trump who don't have enough sense to tie their shoes.

[Ben-Prime]

But he could have settled this one, and didn't. Now he's looking at criminal charges.

Which is, IMO, one of the weirdest parts of this whole affair. Unauthorized retention (of national-security information) is a crime. So when the feebs drop you a nice note asking for the documents back, and tosses in that their continued retention could lead to criminal charges, they're doing so not to be polite, but to create evidence that you had the necessary mental state for the crime, i.e., you retained, your retention wasn't authorized, and you knew you were unauthorizedly retaining.

I presume every lawyer who pleaded with him to just return the documents wrote lengthy CYA memos for the file.

Normally I would agree with that. But tell me you can't name a Baker's Dozen Lawyers who have represented Trump who don't have enough sense to tie their shoes.

I believe the collective noun for lawyers switches from 'team' to 'clown car' when referring specifically in context to TFG's current and former attorneys.

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

Ben-Prime: I believe the collective noun for lawyers switches from 'team' to 'clown car' when referring specifically in context to TFG's current and former attorneys.

by the editors of the Fogbow Lexicon and Snarksaurus.

[Maybenaut]

Clown car, indeed.

I can’t believe he can still find lawyers willing to put their licenses on the line by filing patently frivolous stuff. I mean, some decisions belong to the client, but the client can’t force an attorney to do anything the attorney thinks is frivolous.

[bob]

I mean, some decisions belong to the client, but the client can’t force an attorney to do anything the attorney thinks is frivolous.

Conversely, an attorney could give private advice (i.e., just return the damn documents!), but have that advice ignored, choose not to withdraw, and then publicly zealously advocate contrary to the privately proffered but rejected advice.

Nonetheless, there's a way to do that without frivolity and ethical concerns. Yet here we are.

[pipistrelle]

Most of his attorneys these days seem to be the type who have their faces on interstate billboards.