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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

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#3376

Post by raison de arizona »

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:14 pm Every time the 11th mentioned longstanding precedent I cringed, thinking of Dobbs.
Ya, Dobbs was 50 years, NY's gun ban was 100 years, what's to stop them from stomping 230 years?

Not that I think they will.
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#3377

Post by cjroberts »

Cobbledick made it into the opinion!
Go Land Crabs!
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#3378

Post by humblescribe »

So, the Appeals Court remanded this case back to the trial judge with orders to dismiss the case.

(1) I assume the dismissal will be with prejudice.

(2) What happens if Cannon refuses? If she can go so far off the reservation as to make up rulings out of thin air, what makes us certain that she will follow an order from a higher court?
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#3379

Post by SuzieC »

11th Circuit could issue a summary reversal.
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#3380

Post by Reality Check »

humblescribe wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:20 pm So, the Appeals Court remanded this case back to the trial judge with orders to dismiss the case.

(1) I assume the dismissal will be with prejudice.

(2) What happens if Cannon refuses? If she can go so far off the reservation as to make up rulings out of thin air, what makes us certain that she will follow an order from a higher court?
1) IANAL but I believe you are correct.
2) If Loose Cannon were to go that far off the rails the DoJ would file an emergency appeal of any such nonsense and the 11th would step in. Even she is not that stupid.
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#3381

Post by chancery »

Phoenix520 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:47 pm Is LCannon impeachable?
For what she did in this case? Absent evidence of an envelope of greenbacks or other bribe, absolutely not. And properly so.

Now, it's true that impeachability is ultimately a political test. Whether a public official should be impeached depends on whether a majority of the House of Representatives believe it's appropriate, and whether the official should be convicted depends on whether 2/3 of the Senate wants to convict.

However, assuming that Congress exercises its power in a reasonable and just manner, it would never impeach a judge for a single bad decision.

The 11th Circuit's decision was, in its quiet way, scathing. We'll have to be content with that.
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#3382

Post by June bug »

I’m content, especially with Footnote 3. :lol:
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#3383

Post by RTH10260 »

"former presidents are nothing special" !

That must hurt :lol:
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#3384

Post by Foggy »

I am not disappoint. :oldman:

A ketchup bottle died in Judge Cannon’s honor, of this we can be certain. :lol:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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#3385

Post by noblepa »

RTH10260 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:30 pm "former presidents are nothing special" !

That must hurt :lol:
But, TFG isn't special because he is a former President. He was special long before he became President, because he is THE DONALD!
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#3386

Post by noblepa »

Foggy wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:39 pm I am not disappoint. :oldman:

A ketchup bottle died in Judge Cannon’s honor, of this we can be certain. :lol:
Probably a case of ketchup bottles.
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#3387

Post by p0rtia »

Maybenaut wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:40 am
RTH10260 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:42 am I had a small laugh as the DOJ lawyer Joshi got into a discussion with the Judge Pryor about the requested result of the appeal. Joshi asked for "reverse and remand to district court with instructions to dismiss". Pryor said they likely will "vacate" the district courts ruling cause "lack of equitable jurisdiction".


eta fighting tyops
To clarify, Judge Pryor said that if they find a lack of equitable jurisdiction the language in the decretal paragraph would be “vacate and remand” rather than “reverse and remand.”
So here is the relevant text. The hearing last week, referenced above, was interesting for the fun chat of "vacate" vs "reverse" (which is what the DOJ wanted). The 11th Circuit judge favored vacte, but reckoned that they were both right.

Tada!
Screen Shot 2022-12-01 at 7.52.04 PM.png
Screen Shot 2022-12-01 at 7.52.04 PM.png (41.05 KiB) Viewed 634 times
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#3388

Post by Foggy »

I think Trump will demand that Kise appeal to the Supremes.

He isn't listening to his lawyers, he's too important for that.

But he owns three of the Supremes, so let's go there next. :crazy:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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#3389

Post by bob »

Reality Check wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:11 pm
raison de arizona wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:06 pm Does tfg get to appeal to the Supremes now, or is it a done deal?
Yes, he can appeal but legal experts agree that it would be doomed. Trump can also ask for an en banc hearing by the full 11th Circuit. He eschewed that route last time.
Now that the handwriting is on the wall, there's really an incentive to pull out every delaying move. Because the district court case is still technically alive until the 11th Cir.'s mandate issues.

A PREB and a SCOTUS stay/injunction application could delay that. Especially if SCOTUS grants one of its stay-pending-briefing stays.

* * *
p0rtia wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:55 pm The hearing last week, referenced above, was interesting for the fun chat of "vacate" vs "reverse" (which is what the DOJ wanted). The 11th Circuit judge favored vacte, but reckoned that they were both right.
I was surprised this was even an issue, as remand/vacate/dismiss is a pretty standard appellate-court move.

Because it kills the case; a reversal could invite mischief.

* * *
Frater I*I wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:53 pm
Phoenix520 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:47 pm Is LCannon impeachable?
In theory...but good luck getting 17 QOP votes in the Senate....
And further luck getting a majority in next House session, which starts in 33 days.
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#3390

Post by RTH10260 »

Foggy wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:10 pm I think Trump will demand that Kise appeal to the Supremes.

He isn't listening to his lawyers, he's too important for that.

But he owns three of the Supremes, so let's go there next. :crazy:
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#3391

Post by much ado »

At what point in this process will the Special Master permanently close up shop and go away?
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#3392

Post by p0rtia »

bob wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:03 pm
p0rtia wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:55 pm The hearing last week, referenced above, was interesting for the fun chat of "vacate" vs "reverse" (which is what the DOJ wanted). The 11th Circuit judge favored vacte, but reckoned that they were both right.
I was surprised this was even an issue, as remand/vacate/dismiss is a pretty standard appellate-court move.

Because it kills the case; a reversal could invite mischief.
I'll share my slightly hazy memory of what was said about that on a Meidas Touch podcast on the subject: Unless it was reversed, Canon's initial ruling would still be extant, and other malaign forces could quote it as case law in the future unless. Hence the DOJ wanting the reversal, not the vacate. So the fear of mischief went the other way.
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#3393

Post by noblepa »

much ado wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:33 pm At what point in this process will the Special Master permanently close up shop and go away?
Probably in seven days, when the 11th said that their ruling would take effect, unless SCOTUS intervenes. I suspect that Judge Dearie may slow down a little bit, but he won't stop until he has to.
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#3394

Post by bob »

p0rtia wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:39 pmI'll share my slightly hazy memory of what was said about that on a Meidas Touch podcast on the subject: Unless it was reversed, Canon's initial ruling would still be extant, and other malaign forces could quote it as case law in the future unless. Hence the DOJ wanting the reversal, not the vacate.
Acknowledging your hazy recollection, that doesn't really make sense, for a variety of reasons.
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#3395

Post by p0rtia »

noblepa wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:40 pm
much ado wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:33 pm At what point in this process will the Special Master permanently close up shop and go away?
Probably in seven days, when the 11th said that their ruling would take effect, unless SCOTUS intervenes. I suspect that Judge Dearie may slow down a little bit, but he won't stop until he has to.
I think Dearie was done anyway. When he cancelled the in person query and requested a written response to a few questions, it was clear that he was in the homestretch. All the questions were about contradictions in the text. No content at all. He wrote as a man who had made up his mind and was tidying up the goofs.
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#3396

Post by Gregg »

SuzieC wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:13 pm BOOM! Incredible opinion. Bravo 11th Circuit. The ketchup is hitting at Meirde-a Lardo.
Yes, it is indeed a bad day to be a bottle of Heinz in the pantry at Mar a Lago.
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#3397

Post by Kriselda Gray »

Joyce Vance on Joy Reid's show pointed out that the court has vacated Cannon's order. This means that the stay she imposed on the DOJ is also being vacated. trump's main goal has been to delay, but even if he appeals, unless a new stay is issued - which appears unlikely, the DOJ would be able to continue working on the investigation
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#3398

Post by RTH10260 »

Kriselda Gray wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:09 pm Joyce Vance on Joy Reid's show pointed out that the court has vacated Cannon's order. This means that the stay she imposed on the DOJ is also being vacated. trump's main goal has been to delay, but even if he appeals, unless a new stay is issued - which appears unlikely, the DOJ would be able to continue working on the investigation
The critical part of the investigation was the secret papers, and the DOJ was allowed to work on them, formally to investigate damage to the US. Of course such investigation cannot be made without looking into who when where stole the documents from the WH. As for all other papers, they are uncritical in timing and will anyhow end up at NARA. I think the fun fact here was the request by team T for a listing of all documents. The DOJ would have had to do this for the upcoming indictment anyhow, so the lost no time. And while collating the listing they of course had to look at the documents and may have as a side effect also already pinpointed the who where when of the sticky fingers diverting government documents.
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#3399

Post by northland10 »

bob wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:43 pm
p0rtia wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:39 pmI'll share my slightly hazy memory of what was said about that on a Meidas Touch podcast on the subject: Unless it was reversed, Canon's initial ruling would still be extant, and other malaign forces could quote it as case law in the future unless. Hence the DOJ wanting the reversal, not the vacate.
Acknowledging your hazy recollection, that doesn't really make sense, for a variety of reasons.
I would think that VACATE meant that the order for the special master, the only real opinion is in the case, is gone, is done (after the mandate, of course). On top of her order being vacated the case was remanded with instructions that it be dismissed. IANAL, but I don't see much wiggle room in there.
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#3400

Post by RTH10260 »

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