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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2476

Post by RTH10260 »

Why does this begin to remind me of the best birther hours with Orly Taitz' court filings :violin:
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2477

Post by Greatgrey »

RTH10260 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:52 am Why does this begin to remind me of the best birther hours with Orly Taitz' court filings :violin:
They haven’t gotten to exhume infants stage yet.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2478

Post by Foggy »

So now where are we? My scorecard is a little spotty after the thunderstorm, but I think I can summarize:

1. Judge Dearie's work is greatly simplified, and there is nothing holding him back from examining all the non-classified documents and writing an excellent report for Judge Cannon. If the Supremes vacate the 11th Circuit ruling on the stay I will fall right over :faint: but otherwise he can do his part in expedited fashion. If Trump appeals to the Supremes it doesn't affect his work.

2. Judge Cannon has been legally horsewhipped, but don't give up on her yet, her job is to stop Trump from being indicted and she's fully committed to her own mission objectives. The question now is, what remains for her to do? Trump’s lawyers never did file a complaint. There isn't really a lawsuit. They made a motion, the court granted it, the 11th Circuit issued a partial stay, but otherwise her order remains in effect and I don't know what else she can do. :confuzzled: :think: But Trump’s attorneys will think of something stupid, I have faith in them.

Or maybe the gubbermint will file a Motion to Dismiss now, quoting the 11th Circuit decision liberally. :biggrin:

3. As I reported yesterday, the criminal investigation proceeds apace, there are only several thousand things the FBI is doing that don't even relate to the classified documents.

4. August 8th was 44 days ago. It's been a lot of fun for the closing days of summer, and the fun continues into the fall.

:oldman:
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2479

Post by Greatgrey »

What's the Frequency, Kenneth?
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2480

Post by Foggy »

After brief consideration, I am going to make this a prediction: the gubbermint will file a Motion to Dismiss now in Judge Cannon’s court, quoting the 11th Circuit decision liberally. This will not end the criminal investigation, of course, but she might be willing to give it a rest now, especially if the gubbermint shoves the 11th Circuit ruling down her throat.

That's what I would do, and we'll see ...
Edit: IIRC, and remember IANAL, the denial of a Motion to Dismiss is not appealable, so if it's unsuccessful they can't go running back to the 11th Circuit, but I'd still file the motion and see what happens.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2481

Post by Maybenaut »

Foggy wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:38 am
I will always wonder, however, if there was some sort of signal from the 11th Circuit to Judge Dearie along the lines of "Hold off, we're going to rule quickly so don't make any orders you might have to change later." He said he was going to move fast, but he held back yesterday and waited for the 11th Circuit ruling on the Motion for Partial Stay. :think:
I believe I predicted yesterday that Judge Dearie would slow-walk this until the 11th ruled on the stay, because included in Judge Cannon’s order was a requirement that he make classified documents available to plaintiff’s counsel. No way was he going to do that unless and until he was ordered to by the grown-ups.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2482

Post by noblepa »

This whole business of automatically declassifying documents first came up, early in TFG's term, when he had classified documents in the Oval Office while he met privately with some Russian diplomats.

When called on it, TFG and his supports claimed that, somehow, simply by treating them as unclassified, they magically became unclassified. A lot of talking heads on just about every network but Faux argued against that idea, but it was (to my knowledge) never challenged legally.

Would it be possible, without violating the separation of powers, for Congress to pass a law specifying the process for declassification? It seems to me that, as long as Congress doesn't say that POTUS can't declassify anything, but merely requires specific documentation of the declassification process, that such a law would pass Constitutional muster.

I imagine that such a law could/would require that anyone, including POTUS, who declassifies a document must do at least this much:

Specifically identify every document being declassified and

State the reason(s) for declassifying it.

It seems to me that this is not a very onerous requirement. Unless you are TFG, declassifying things with your mind, that you already know the document you wish to declassify and you know why it no longer needs to be declassified. So, writing it down should not be a big deal.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2483

Post by Greatgrey »

noblepa wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:23 am This whole business of automatically declassifying documents first came up, early in TFG's term, when he had classified documents in the Oval Office while he met privately with some Russian diplomats.

When called on it, TFG and his supports claimed that, somehow, simply by treating them as unclassified, they magically became unclassified. A lot of talking heads on just about every network but Faux argued against that idea, but it was (to my knowledge) never challenged legally.

Would it be possible, without violating the separation of powers, for Congress to pass a law specifying the process for declassification? It seems to me that, as long as Congress doesn't say that POTUS can't declassify anything, but merely requires specific documentation of the declassification process, that such a law would pass Constitutional muster.

I imagine that such a law could/would require that anyone, including POTUS, who declassifies a document must do at least this much:

Specifically identify every document being declassified and

State the reason(s) for declassifying it.

It seems to me that this is not a very onerous requirement. Unless you are TFG, declassifying things with your mind, that you already know the document you wish to declassify and you know why it no longer needs to be declassified. So, writing it down should not be a big deal.
There was also the time he Tweeted out surveillance pics of Iranian military installations.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/30/75599459 ... ge-of-iran

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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2484

Post by Foggy »

Here's what I'm getting from the 11th Circuit ruling.

It starts out by stressing the limited nature of its ruling, it applies only to the motion for a partial stay.

But then later they flatly state that "the district court abused its discretion" by finding it had any jurisdiction at all to consider equitable intervention. And since Judge Cannon’s court has no other basis for jurisdiction than equitable jurisdiction, there is no basis for jurisdiction at all in Judge Cannon’s court.

And if that's true, her case MUST BE DISMISSED. :smoking:

But Trump’s attorneys will probably disagree with me. :nope:
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2485

Post by Maybenaut »

Foggy wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:28 am Here's what I'm getting from the 11th Circuit ruling.

It starts out by stressing the limited nature of its ruling, it applies only to the motion for a partial stay.

But then later they flatly state that "the district court abused its discretion" by finding it had any jurisdiction at all to consider equitable intervention. And since Judge Cannon’s court has no other basis for jurisdiction than equitable jurisdiction, there is no basis for jurisdiction at all in Judge Cannon’s court.

And if that's true, her case MUST BE DISMISSED. :smoking:

But Trump’s attorneys will probably disagree with me. :nope:
they always say that when they’re talking about ruling on a motion to stay. But given the standard — substantial likelihood of success on the merits — the Court necessarily has to telegraph how it’s likely to rule. What I’m not sure about is whether the same panel that ruled on the motion to stay will rule on the appeal itself. Reasonable minds can differ in the abstract, but even if it’s a different panel, I really doubt they’d come to a different conclusion because they’d have to explain why this panel is wrong.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2486

Post by Foggy »

Now I need to read the original document that Trump filed to begin the case. What did his lawyers say was the basis for jurisdiction in Judge Cannon’s court? :think:
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2487

Post by RTH10260 »

Foggy wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:28 am Here's what I'm getting from the 11th Circuit ruling.

It starts out by stressing the limited nature of its ruling, it applies only to the motion for a partial stay.

But then later they flatly state that "the district court abused its discretion" by finding it had any jurisdiction at all to consider equitable intervention. And since Judge Cannon’s court has no other basis for jurisdiction than equitable jurisdiction, there is no basis for jurisdiction at all in Judge Cannon’s court.

And if that's true, her case MUST BE DISMISSED. :smoking:

But Trump’s attorneys will probably disagree with me. :nope:
They get payed for disgreeing ;) at the risk of having to pay attorney fees for filing frivolous stuff, a minor dent in their revenue stream.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2488

Post by Chilidog »

fierceredpanda wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:46 am I am extremely confident that there aren’t sufficient votes to grant such a request.
This would be a good poll question
Who would vote either way.

EDIT. POLL POSTED
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2489

Post by Maybenaut »

Foggy wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:37 am Now I need to read the original document that Trump filed to begin the case. What did his lawyers say was the basis for jurisdiction in Judge Cannon’s court? :think:
Well, here’s the thing about that. I don’t practice in federal court, but I do recall from law school that when you file you have to state the basis both for jurisdiction and venue.

So I went back to the original, you know, just to see. I searched for the word “jurisdiction,” and it appears exactly zero times.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2490

Post by realist »

Maybenaut wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:05 am
Foggy wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:37 am Now I need to read the original document that Trump filed to begin the case. What did his lawyers say was the basis for jurisdiction in Judge Cannon’s court? :think:
Well, here’s the thing about that. I don’t practice in federal court, but I do recall from law school that when you file you have to state the basis both for jurisdiction and venue.

So I went back to the original, you know, just to see. I searched for the word “jurisdiction,” and it appears exactly zero times.
Yet IIRC, and I could be misremembering, but Loose Cannon admitted she didn’t have jurisdiction but then took the “case” and ruled on it anyway.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2491

Post by Foggy »

Yeah, and now the 11th Circuit said she abused her discretion by deciding she had jurisdiction.

Hence my prediction, but I'm often wrong. :lol:
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2492

Post by chancery »

I've transcribed a good thread by Mitchell Epner (@MitchellEpner), but you should read it on twitter, because of his quotes from the 11th Circuit's opinion.



Thread with second day thoughts on the 11th Circuit's evisceration of Judge Cannon's denial of the DOJ's motion for a stay of her injunction with regard to the 100 documents bearing markings as classified seized from Mar-A-Lago. 1/12

1. The 11th Circuit went out of its way (in Footnote 4) to pour cold water on the idea that the FBI raid was designed solely to harass FPOTUS: 2/12

2. The 11th Circuit absolutely eviscerated Judge Cannon's finding that the prospect of facing criminal prosecution was a harm from which FPOTUS deserved protection: 3/12

3. The 11th Circuit literally held that none of the relevant factors favored granting FPOTUS his injunction: 4/12

4. The 11th Circuit also flamed Judge Cannon's attempt to split the baby by holding that the Intelligence Community could continue the National Security review of the 100 documents bearing classified markings, but the FBI could not do any criminal work with those documents: 5/12

5. The 11th Circuit also affirmed the DOJ's argument that allowing the Special Master or FPOTUS's defense team to review the 100 documents bearing classified markings would be an "irreparable harm" to the United States. 6/12

6. Finally, the 11th Circuit basically held that the DOJ had already satisfied the most important element of an eventual prosecution under the Espionage Act (18 USC Section 793(d). 7/12

Section 793(d) states: "Whoever, lawfully having possession of [a document] relating to the national defense which information the possessor had reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation . . . 8/12

willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it" violates the Espionage Act and "shall be . . . imprisoned not more than ten years" for each document willfully retained. 9/12

Yesterday, the 11th Circuit held: "The documents at issue contain information 'the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security.'" 10/12

In short, so long as the documents were properly marked as classified in the first place, FPOTUS is "F"ed. 11/12

For those who don't want to read all of the above, my summary of the 11th Circuit's response to Judge Cannon's order was captured by Vincent LaGuardia Gambini in his opening statement in My Cousin Vinny:
12/12
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2493

Post by chancery »


Akiva Cohen
@AkivaMCohen
Heads up, #LitigationDisasterTourists - Judge Cannon just issued an order in response to the 11th Circuit's stay, striking from her prior order the provisions dealing with classified documents

This is wildly weird. By striking those provisions, they've been removed from her order entirely. They are no longer stayed pending appeal, they simply do not exist.

Which means (for anyone wondering about SCOTUS) Cannon just mooted any possible appeal from the 11th stay

The appeal continues as to the rest of the order, but the 11th Circuit stay is now gone (since there's nothing for it to apply to).

Striking paragraph 6 also deleted the requirement that the SM submit interim reports.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2494

Post by Foggy »

:doh:
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2495

Post by Foggy »

What Akiva is saying is, now Trump CAN'T appeal to the Supremes.

Because there's no 11th Circuit ruling to appeal from.

Which I suspect won't stop them from trying ...
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2496

Post by Phoenix520 »

Was that a boo-boo on Cannons part? Or deliberate? I’m SO confused.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2497

Post by RTH10260 »

The lady seems angry that the 11th slapped her wrist, so she made the bad part disappear.
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2498

Post by Foggy »

Godonlyknows, but does the new order say she has jurisdiction when the 11th Circuit said last night that was an abuse of discretion?

She's new, she's probably a nice lady, she got kicked in the nuts last night, she may be emotionally reeling under the stress. Let's not cut her any slack at all.

I approve wholeheartedly. :batting:
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2499

Post by Jim »

6. Finally, the 11th Circuit basically held that the DOJ had already satisfied the most important element of an eventual prosecution under the Espionage Act (18 USC Section 793(d). 7/12

Section 793(d) states: "Whoever, lawfully having possession of [a document] relating to the national defense which information the possessor had reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation . . . 8/12

willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it" violates the Espionage Act and "shall be . . . imprisoned not more than ten years" for each document willfully retained. 9/12
Let's see, 100 documents @ 10/years per = 1,000 years behind bars for Trump. I can live with that. :dance:
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Re: Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard

#2500

Post by New Turtle »

Maybe she granted jurisdiction with her mind.
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