Fogbow

AndyinPA wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:46 pm The first time I went to Copenhagen, I learned the proper way to pronounce it as they do, and it's spelled and pronounced very differently. I can't remember for certain, but it sounds something like Ker-houn.

Yeah, sort of. It's København in Danish, the ø is the neutral schwa vowel, spoken Danish is happy to drop a lot of letters so the "e" drifts off into the mist. It's not really clear whether the "b" is a "b" or a "p" sound (the difference is voicing and perhaps a little plosive-ness). Without the "e", the "n" assimilates by place to the "b" (or "p") to become an "m" and the "vn" acquires a hint of a glottal stop - Danish likes glottal stops (stød) - like the one in Hawai'i. Danish spelling is more phonetic than English spelling, but not as rigorously as Norwegian.

So [køpm̩'hɑwɂn]. Or, to Norwegian ears Køɂøɂøɂn (just joking!).

But! Every Dane I have worked with calls the city Copenhagen when speaking English, pronounced the (British) English way, y'know, cope-en-hay-gun. I think it's one of those world cities, like Paris, whose name changes with language.

The name means "merchant harbour". The modern verb "købe" means "buy"; "havn" is the English "haven", a natural safe harbour. Showing the p/b substitution thing, the same verb is "køpe" in Norwegian, Norwegian often has "p" where Danish has "b", e.g. "skip" versus "skib" for English "ship", without necessarily much difference in pronunciation.

Very interesting - especially the comparisons with Norwegian. I know the two languages are very similar. Someone actually said that learning one is essentially learning both, but I don't know if they're *that* close

Sam the Centipede wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:27 am

AndyinPA wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:46 pm The first time I went to Copenhagen, I learned the proper way to pronounce it as they do, and it's spelled and pronounced very differently. I can't remember for certain, but it sounds something like Ker-houn.

Yeah, sort of. It's København in Danish, the ø is the neutral schwa vowel, spoken Danish is happy to drop a lot of letters so the "e" drifts off into the mist. It's not really clear whether the "b" is a "b" or a "p" sound (the difference is voicing and perhaps a little plosive-ness). Without the "e", the "n" assimilates by place to the "b" (or "p") to become an "m" and the "vn" acquires a hint of a glottal stop - Danish likes glottal stops (stød) - like the one in Hawai'i. Danish spelling is more phonetic than English spelling, but not as rigorously as Norwegian.

So [køpm̩'hɑwɂn]. Or, to Norwegian ears Køɂøɂøɂn (just joking!).

But! Every Dane I have worked with calls the city Copenhagen when speaking English, pronounced the (British) English way, y'know, cope-en-hay-gun. I think it's one of those world cities, like Paris, whose name changes with language.

The name means "merchant harbour". The modern verb "købe" means "buy"; "havn" is the English "haven", a natural safe harbour. Showing the p/b substitution thing, the same verb is "køpe" in Norwegian, Norwegian often has "p" where Danish has "b", e.g. "skip" versus "skib" for English "ship", without necessarily much difference in pronunciation.

Thanks!

Kriselda Gray wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:35 am Very interesting - especially the comparisons with Norwegian. I know the two languages are very similar. Someone actually said that learning one is essentially learning both, but I don't know if they're *that* close

We had a tour manager who was Swedish. She was born in Sweden, married a Dane and lived there, but worked in Norway frequently. She told us that she spoke fluent Swedish and Danish, but found Norwegian difficult.

Kriselda Gray wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:55 am When the Russian war on Ukraine started, I noticed all the news anchors were making a point of pronouncing the name of the capitol city as 'Keev", not "Key-ev" as I'd heard it all my life. It makes sense, though, since that's how Ukrainians pronounce it. Why, then, does no one pronounce "Ukraine" the way they do, which is "you-kry-ina". For that matter, why don't we call "Moscow" "Moskva" or "Germany" "Deutschland"?

I have a dear friend from Kiev and posed this question to her. She said the actual pronunciation is neither Keev nor Key-ev, but somewhere in between.

Maybenaut wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:51 pm I have a dear friend from Kiev and posed this question to her. She said the actual pronunciation is neither Keev nor Key-ev, but somewhere in between.

Interesting! I'm having a bit of trouble imagining what that would sound like. I tried learning Russian for a while and found it very difficult to pronounce a lot of words. They have sounds in their alphabet that we just don't. I think it's a beautiful language to listen to, though, even if I can't quite get my tongue around it.

Kiev/Kyiv: I don't speak a word of Ukrainian and not much more Russian, but based on the blessed Wikipedia's note, I think what is happening is that the last consonant (as written) is half-dropped.

The Ukrainian spelling is Київ, which suggests a naïve pronunciation "ki-eev". But the "v" slides away into a liquid back sound on the end (yeah, that's not proper phonetic blah, I'm in lazy mode). So you get the pronunciation given by the Wikifolk of [ˈkɪjiu̯] (the phonetic "j" is a "y" for English speakers, the "ˈɪ" is the vowel in the English "fit", the "i" is the vowel in the English "feet" but shorter).

Different Slavic language, but I remember a guide in Bulgaria whose name was the equivalent of Basil (Vasily, perhaps just Vasil) confusing our group because the final "l" of his name was pronounced in that sort of can't-be-bothered way, something very vaguely like "vasiuh". He thought it was difficult for us but the problem was that he said it once quickly and that's not enough to pick up a completely novel name with an unexpected pronunciation.

Interesting thread. I have high frequency hearing loss, I can’t really hear anything above 2 kHz, I show some response but in actuality it’s speaker distortion being over driven, (sounds like a clicking or buzz), I think.
It’s hard for me to pick up nuances in foreign languages. I was recently working with a Haitian native. He said that it’s really hard for foreign speakers to correctly pronounce (th) properly, he knew he was pronouncing it wrong (like “d”), but just couldn’t make the sound. He indicated that it’s really common for foreign speakers to be unable to make that sound. Easy for us, though.

I guess it works both ways. I may never be able to pronounce Kiev/Kyiv properly, due to actual inability to get the consonant sound.

Even in English if I haven’t heard the pronunciation before there’s a fair chance I’ll get it wrong. With my hearing even if I have heard it I’ll still probably get it wrong.

My favorite example is the proper pronunciation of Cholmondeley, if you’ve never heard it spoken before.

I asked my friend if he is related to the new press secretary. He said that Jean-Pierre is a very common last name in Haiti. He also told that my French pronunciations we actually fairly good. He helped me some with that. I was surprised because it was high school french from a long time ago.

American/Australian English: Booster Shot
UK English: Borchestershire Shot

Yeah, soon enough we'll have to learn the language of machines, and not just "gzzzzt" and "zap!"

Foggy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:38 am Yeah, soon enough we'll have to learn the language of machines, and not just "gzzzzt" and "zap!"

Eezy peezy:
"Zip when it moves. Bop when it stops. Whirr when it stands still . . ."

Peter, Paul and Mary!

Sam the Centipede wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:46 am Kiev/Kyiv: I don't speak a word of Ukrainian and not much more Russian, but based on the blessed Wikipedia's note, I think what is happening is that the last consonant (as written) is half-dropped.

The Ukrainian spelling is Київ, which suggests a naïve pronunciation "ki-eev". But the "v" slides away into a liquid back sound on the end (yeah, that's not proper phonetic blah, I'm in lazy mode). So you get the pronunciation given by the Wikifolk of [ˈkɪjiu̯] (the phonetic "j" is a "y" for English speakers, the "ˈɪ" is the vowel in the English "fit", the "i" is the vowel in the English "feet" but shorter).

Different Slavic language, but I remember a guide in Bulgaria whose name was the equivalent of Basil (Vasily, perhaps just Vasil) confusing our group because the final "l" of his name was pronounced in that sort of can't-be-bothered way, something very vaguely like "vasiuh". He thought it was difficult for us but the problem was that he said it once quickly and that's not enough to pick up a completely novel name with an unexpected pronunciation.

When westerners say it like “Keev,” they say it in one syllable, sort of like “leave”. When my friend says it, she says two syllables - “Ke-ev”, with the “e” in the second syllable pronounced the same as the first, but with slightly less emphasis. The difference between her pronunciation and what I hear on TV is very, very slight, and the “Keev” pronunciation is much closer to the old”Key-yet.”

Reddog wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:39 am
I asked my friend if he is related to the new press secretary. He said that Jean-Pierre is a very common last name in Haiti. He also told that my French pronunciations we actually fairly good. He helped me some with that. I was surprised because it was high school french from a long time ago.

I wonder if there's something about the French accent that's memorable, maybe because it's one we hear more frequently than others. I was in one of the Parisian airports changing planes from the US to Budapest (that should always be pronounced Budapesht ) and an airport personnel said something to me in French, giving me instructions to get to the proper terminal. I answered briefly in French. She went into a full on complicated set of instructions as she clearly thought I could speak French fluently.

You want a tough language? Try Hungarian. It sits on its own little branch on the language tree.

My nephew met and married a Hungarian girl in college, I think he got fairly fluent in it, (they travelled there several times) but did say it was difficult. If I remember correctly he said Finnish was probably the closest related language.
They were married for several years, but split up. He married a Native Chinese after that and was learning that also. I got the impression from what he told me that pitch is very important in Chinese. That would be very difficult for me because of my hearing.

Reddog wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:23 pm My nephew met and married a Hungarian girl in college, I think he got fairly fluent in it, (they travelled there several times) but did say it was difficult. If I remember correctly he said Finnish was probably the closest related language.
They were married for several years, but split up. He married a Native Chinese after that and was learning that also. I got the impression from what he told me that pitch is very important in Chinese. That would be very difficult for me because of my hearing.

Yes, Finnish is what I've also heard.

I grew up going to a Hungarian church. When I first met my husband, he thought he'd impress me by learning a little Hungarian from the Hungarian hymnal in the pews. He was quickly dissuaded of that idea. I never really spoke it, but my mother and grandmother spoke it all the time. I could always loosely tell what they were talking about, but only in general terms. I love Hungary, and thought for a while that since all my grandparents were Hungarian, I could get citizenship. I've learned, though, that you have to also speak the language, and that ship has sailed. Anyway, there's now Orban.

I have a comment I wanted to add to my last post on the AOC thread (about whether Heathens are into assault weapons or not? But didn't want to hijack the thread further, so I'm moving it here. I'd mentioned that in my experience, most Heathens who are into weaponry tend to be more interested in ancient arms rather than modern.

This was brought home a bit when I started watching "Forged In Fire" (GREAT show, BTW!) I was really surprised by how many contestants I saw wearing Thor's Hammer amulets. At first whenever I spotted one, I'd look them up and check out any public pages they had. All of the ones I found were Heathen. I stopped looking them up after about 10 or so, but have probably seen another 10 Hammers since then. Roughly 20 out of enough contestants for 200 episodes isn't a whole lot, but we're a pretty small religion, and it's the only show I can think of where I've seen anyone with a Hammer

Just a side note I wanted to throw out there.

One thing I've often wondered about on sci-fi shows that feature exploratory ships filled with a crew that comes from a wide variety of planets (like, y'know, Star Trek). Most of them - i imagine for the convenience of the writers mainly - have the ship run on a day-night cycle much like Earth's. But if we were ever to find alien life, each planet would have it's own unique "day" system, depending on how many moons or suns they have, their distance from them and speeds of planetary revolution and rotation. How would anyone determine what would be the best - or maybe fairest? - way to determine what kind of cycle to have any given ship on?

Well it is a requirement to "suspend disbelief" when it comes to this sort of thing. The ideas are what are important. In what way is the environment of, say, "Pride and Predjudice" anymore believable?

But anyway, how do you know different cycles aren't being catered for? Do you ever remember people going to the toilet in Cowboy movies? But know they had to sometime or other. But mygosh, the Indians don't even have toilets in their teepees! And how come the ladies in Pride and predjudice never go to the toilet?

In "The Orville" there was an episode where going to the toilet was a major plot point.

I have no problem suspending disbelief while watching such shows - I guess I should have said it's when I start to think about how we'd handle it if we, as a species, ever got the chance to do that kind of exploration in reality.

I initially didn't like sci-fi until I read Stranger in a Strange Land. I began looking at sci-fi as an allegory. Sometimes the issues encountered were the same as on real Earth, but perhaps treated differently. Sometimes it was about the future if we didn't change. Sometimes it was about a different way to live - worse or better. That's my short explanation, anyway.

Lani wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:55 pm I initially didn't like sci-fi until I read Stranger in a Strange Land. I began looking at sci-fi as an allegory. Sometimes the issues encountered were the same as on real Earth, but perhaps treated differently. Sometimes it was about the future if we didn't change. Sometimes it was about a different way to live - worse or better. That's my short explanation, anyway.

I love sci-fi, and I especially love the allegory aspect off it. It's a great way to let us look at a problem that may seem rather familiar from a frame of reference outside out own experience. I think it's one of the most beautiful thing about the genre. But at the same time, I love the idea of it being speculative fiction, where we try to figure out how things might work in a future society with whatever changes might come our way.

It's that second view where my question comes from. I'm trying to speculate what we would do if sometime in the future humanity has found other life out there (lots of it!) and we're about to put together a cooperative mission with our new friends to see what else we can learn. Each group, of course, gets input on every aspect of the project so as to be as fair to everyone as possible. Now we're at the point where the planners are working on the ship itself, and are realizing that Humans need a daily cycle of XYZ, another group needs one of MKRE (ie, a slightly more complex system), and a third needs one of 13T7q-kO/5Dm (ie, a system we still aren't sure we quite understand.) How do we blend those all together? Or do we? Do we build separate sections of the ship, each one set to a different cycle? If so, how to we coordinate everyone's work shifts? And so on from there.

I posted it in case anyone else was interested in speculating along with me, but apparently wrote it badly enough my intent didn't come across. Sorry about that!

Yeah, I see where you are coming from, and I'd point out that these problems, some very extreme, have been dealt with fairly often (but don't ask me to point out where at the moment).

There are many stories addressing cultures that require different atmospheric conditions so the ship or city has 'sections' or 'quadrants' or 'decks' that cater to each.

Its true that universes like "Star Trek" and "The Orville" seem to have an awful lot of species that can breathe the same atmosphere mix, but that is just so the makeup room can have fun, I think. The medical facilities are magic enough that I suspect they can overcome day/night cycle issues, but just because they script doesn't point out how alien 'circadian' rhythms affect shift planning doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

"The Orville" had an episode where an enemy species could not stand bright light and that was used as a weapon to win the day.
"Dune" has a species (the Navigators) that must stay in an environmental chamber (containing Spice Gas).
"Star Trek" (various incarnations) occasionally had sections sealed off with special environments for alien guests, and crew with different requirements (Seven of Nine had to regenerate periodically).

I heard that all the other sentient space aliens have a system based on cubits.

It is, but it's based on the length of *their* arm, not ours. We won't even discuss their twelve fingers.