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The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

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RTH10260
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#26

Post by RTH10260 »

Jim wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:08 am Please correct me if I'm wrong, but our solar system is on the very outer edge of the Milky Way and would be one of the oldest systems in the galaxy, wouldn't it?

So even if their are other planets with intelligent life, they probably aren't as advanced as we are I'd think.
Laws of physics as our scientists have discovered until now suggest we know the timeframe of development of other bodies in the Universe.

The same has not to be true for predicted lifeforms elsewhere. We just don't know at what stage of development in their local environment we will make the meet-and-greet. Why would their time have to be slower? They could have had their inception starting with far more intelligence (knowldge) than the early single cell critters on earth. Now of course our understanding of intelligence itself presumes a multicellular organism using part of their cells, specialized cells we call a brain, to store and organize information. Plus some inference mechanism to discover something new. Back to the intelligence elsewhere, they could be so advanced we would not recognize it for what it is. Them laughing at those organism fighting for survival in a Petri dish named Earth.

:think: :confuzzled:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#27

Post by neeneko »

Jim wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:08 am Please correct me if I'm wrong, but our solar system is on the very outer edge of the Milky Way and would be one of the oldest systems in the galaxy, wouldn't it?

So even if their are other planets with intelligent life, they probably aren't as advanced as we are I'd think.
This gets pretty tricky. We are about half way out, currently between arms, and are on the older end of population 1 stars but not exceptionally so. Life evolving is also a very 'back and forth' type thing.. we have had complex life for billions of years (with multiple mass extinctions and restarts), but it only takes a few million years to go from general life to 'intelligent' life, and it only takes a few thousand years to go from 'bang the rocks together' to 'internet'. So with timescales, we can only really put upper and lower limits for life like our's to develop, and there are a huge number of systems that could have developed intellegent life like ours many times over.

Now, if you want the really creepy part : on our own world, if intelligent life had developed in the past, including up to our current level of technological development, the evidence of it would only last a few million years. Meaning we could have had civilizations rise and fall on our own world a thousand times over already and it is questionable if there would be any sign of them left to find today.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#28

Post by Liz »

the evidence of it would only last a few million years
...and that's why we've never found the fossilized remains of anything.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#29

Post by RTH10260 »

How dare you speak of millions! 6000 years at most, give or take... :twisted:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#30

Post by Suranis »

Its true. We only have knowledge of maybe 5000 years of Human civilization. Before then, We could have been doing reruns of Battlestar Gallactia out there for all that we know.

One of the interesting things about reading H.P. Lovecraft is his idea that things happened before history that we have no idea about, and seeing a glimpse of that could drive us mad.

One of the things that fascinates me is the way we always seem to have rolled a 6. We are in a universe that is just right for supporting our kind of life. There are dust clouds in the way of the galactic center which have protected us from the radiation coming from it. We are on a double planet that both strips away the atmosphere to keep the pressure from crushing us into paste AND replenishes it through volcanic activity so the Moon does not suck away the atmosphere. And were it not for such activity, erosion would have wiped away the land we live on. Etc etc.

So our form of life may be extremely rare. But some other world may have a similarly unlikely configuration of planets that make their form of life possible.

Also, the fact that we are in a middle aged part of the Galaxy is good as there is a large mix of other elements to make stuff while still having a lot of Hydrogen to fuel the Sun.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#31

Post by qbawl »

Off Topic
Sorta off topic: Currently reading a book by Dean Koontz Elsewhere. The mode of transport to other intelligent(‽) civilizations is neither space nor time travel as such, but rather travel to an alternate earth in one of the many universes in the multiverse via an iPhone like device. The timeline remains constant but although some earths are nearly identical to earth prime, some are horrifyingly altered but familiar enough to know you are in the same place and time you left from. Mayhem ensues (or not only half way through the book).
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#32

Post by humblescribe »

RTH10260 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:56 pm
Jim wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:08 am Please correct me if I'm wrong, but our solar system is on the very outer edge of the Milky Way and would be one of the oldest systems in the galaxy, wouldn't it?

So even if their are other planets with intelligent life, they probably aren't as advanced as we are I'd think.
Laws of physics as our scientists have discovered until now suggest we know the timeframe of development of other bodies in the Universe.

The same has not to be true for predicted lifeforms elsewhere. We just don't know at what stage of development in their local environment we will make the meet-and-greet. Why would their time have to be slower? They could have had their inception starting with far more intelligence (knowldge) than the early single cell critters on earth. Now of course our understanding of intelligence itself presumes a multicellular organism using part of their cells, specialized cells we call a brain, to store and organize information. Plus some inference mechanism to discover something new. Back to the intelligence elsewhere, they could be so advanced we would not recognize it for what it is. Them laughing at those organism fighting for survival in a Petri Peachtree dish named Earth.

:think: :confuzzled:
FIFY cuz I know of a representative from Georgia who is expert in these things. :rotflmao:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#33

Post by neeneko »

Liz wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:09 pm
the evidence of it would only last a few million years
...and that's why we've never found the fossilized remains of anything.
*sigh* yes, there would be evidence that creatures existed. However, it is an open question if any evidence of a technological civilization would remain.

The best hope would be to find a thin layer with some kind of chemical composition that can only be explained through industrialization, but people who have been trying to craft such an experiment have found it harder than one would expect.

Kurzgesagt did a fun video not that log ago on the difficulties:

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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#34

Post by RTH10260 »

neeneko wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:37 pm :snippity:

Kurzgesagt did a fun video not that log ago on the difficulties:

https:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRvv0QdruMQ
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#35

Post by Foggy »

pjhimself wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:07 pm ... something like 7 billion earthlings believe in some sort of deity.
Not sure the number of earthlings believing in life on other planets is that high.
Neither number proves anything.
Yes, but the 7 billion Earthlings can't agree on WHICH deity is real, whereas all the people who believe in intelligent life on other planets pretty much agree that there must be space aliens. However, my staff informs me that the space aliens believe in totally different deities than we do on this planet. They can't agree either.

And the existence of deities cannot be proven with facts, whereas scientific conjecture regarding the probable existence of space aliens is a fact-and-mathematics-based process.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#36

Post by Foggy »

Oh, and imagine a deity that could create an entire Universe, with all its unfathomable scope and complexity, and yet the deity only created the amazing diversity of life on one little insignificant planet, over a period of 13 billion years.

That sounds like a really stupid deity, IMHO. That's an enormous waste of potential.

No wonder the Catholics are looking for life on other planets. :daydreaming:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#37

Post by Jim »

Just a crazy thought...but what if the galaxy was doG's womb and the earth doG's fetus?
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#38

Post by RTH10260 »

Foggy wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:30 am Oh, and imagine a deity that could create an entire Universe, with all its unfathomable scope and complexity, and yet the deity only created the amazing diversity of life on one little insignificant planet, over a period of 13 billion years.

That sounds like a really stupid deity, IMHO. That's an enormous waste of potential.

No wonder the Catholics are looking for life on other planets. :daydreaming:
And strange how this one deity is fixated on human sexuality while bazillion of creatures he claimed to have created also too are practicing free love :roll:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#39

Post by Foggy »

... and the Universe, we now know, is 13.6 billion years old, but the Earth is only about 4.5 billion years old. So the deity, whoever she was, sat around for a while twiddling her thumbs or sumpin' for about 9.1 billion years.

Not exackly your Puritan work ethic, that. :smoking:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#40

Post by Jim »

What is time to a doG that lives millions ( maybe billions) of years?
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#41

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

RTH:
And strange how this one deity is fixated on human sexuality while bazillion of creatures he claimed to have created also too are practicing free love :roll:
A former client whose church supported her in her separation from her husband, but not divorce, because he only abused her and he didn't commit adultery, asked me my opinion about the doG thing. I said, "If there is a god, I think she has more important things to do than determine whether a person can get a divorce or not."
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#42

Post by pjhimself »

Foggy wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:21 am

And the existence of deities cannot be proven with facts, whereas scientific conjecture regarding the probable existence of space aliens is a fact-and-mathematics-based process.
The suggestion was/is that 7 billion or so earthlings believe in a deity.
My view is that “belief” is based on faith, dogma or tradition. Facts are not in play.
People believe or are being told to.
Other reasons for belief in a a deity can be found elsewhere such as:

https://www.learnreligions.com/the-real ... god-250957

I’m not sure how “scientific conjecture” fits in a discussion about facts but I’m fairly certain the deity believers will not be convinced by this or the probabilities and statistics suggested in previous posts.

As an aside, references to a “stupid deity” will probably not sit well with some of those you’re trying to make your case with.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#43

Post by RTH10260 »

I don't think we made a reference to a "stupid deity", but a proposed deity with the implied creative powers would by definition be hyperintelligent. What believers don't want to acknowlege is that some of their representaions make the proposed deity look silly to the absurd. That's not limited to Christianity. For a collection of phantastic claims by Muslims check out the collected goods on the website of the MEMRI organization. I guess interpretations by the orthodox Jewish community could be added for their faith. Reading of Hindu mobs in the roads of India makes me believe they have their own version of crazy.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#44

Post by Foggy »

I made reference to a stupid deity, but I am not trying to persuade any deity-believers of anything. Or anybody else.

I think, statistically, there have to be other planets with intelligent life, but the speed of light appears to be an insuperable barrier to getting friendly with the neighbors.

And remember:
Image

'Course, as a species, we're still too stupid and violent to be trusted in other areas of the galaxy. Fox News would be telling people to wipe out the aliens and steal everything they've built. :doh:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#45

Post by northland10 »

Well, I suppose I should at least give some sort of thought from a diety follower. The simple fact is there are many who want their diety to stay in His lane, to remain in the nice neat box that they have created for their Lord. They love to say that He does not change.

They have a minor bit of truth, except they flip it all around. What they claim is people changing God is actually people changing (which I suspect is the underlying fear). The simple fact, and it is quite clear in Scripture (For now we see through a glass, darkly...), that we know very little of God, and so we journey continuously to learn more and as we learn more. God does not change, we change. And since a diety like this is so beyond our current knowledge, I am quite comfortable with a very, very big universe and life elsewhere. This to me, does not lessen God but shows a God that is so much bigger than my little brain can yet understand, especially within the context of what I know now.

Those others claim a great and powerful God but only want one that they can immediately understand and control. They are not good with shades of grey (along with an infinite diversity of colors).

This is my current musings on this. For those of other faiths or no faiths, YMMV.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#46

Post by Foggy »

:like:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#47

Post by humblescribe »

Not getting into the deity thing....

The sheer efficiency of life on this planet is amazing. How some CO2 from the atmosphere plus some H2O from the soil catalyzed by visible sunlight to produce glucose that is retained and O2 discharged into the atmosphere so that other life forms can utilize the oxygen and respire CO2 is fascinating.


Then the whole DNA thingy where plants start with glucose and with some other elements from the soil manufacture tens of thousands of different chemicals for specific purposes. Then those plants are consumed by animals who are then consumed by yet other animals. The whole cycle starts over upon death: Microbes process larger molecules into smaller ones. Wind, rain, snow, heat, cold all contribute to breaking down larger forms into smaller ones, perhaps assisted by earthquakes and other major physical events, like the odd meteorite crashing into the ground.

Yet here we are, H. sapiens mucking everything up. I think the scholars who bestowed our binomial name with "sapiens" made an egregious error. Homo stultus might be more appropriate.

Getting into the deity thing....

I have pondered if Earth is not some massive experiment by a deity or group of deities to see just how "intelligent" life will come to pass over hundreds of thousands of years. They are collecting data, making notes, and will finalize their ultimate creation once we destroy this planet and ourselves.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#48

Post by Foggy »

Oh, an optimist. :batting:
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#49

Post by Sam the Centipede »

northland10 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:01 pm God does not change, we change.
?? :confuzzled:
My misunderstanding of Christian mythology and apologetics is that the lovey be nice to people deity of the New Testament supplanted the smite the enemies deity of the Old Testament, so apparently your god did change. Or the NT god smote the OT god in a palace putsch.

:biggrin: Of course you are correct in a way that you do not intend about your god not changing – in his/her/its eternal nonexistence! :biggrin:

Nobody ever seems to consider the possibility that there was a creator god, perhaps even an interventionist one who like to burn bushes, part seas, etc., but that god died and left everything running on autopilot. Or, bored with this little project, went off somewhere else for better entertainment.
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Re: The case for intelligent life on other planets ...

#50

Post by Suranis »

Sam the Centipede wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:06 pm
northland10 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:01 pm God does not change, we change.
?? :confuzzled:
My misunderstanding of Christian mythology and apologetics is that the lovey be nice to people deity of the New Testament supplanted the smite the enemies deity of the Old Testament, so apparently your god did change. Or the NT god smote the OT god in a palace putsch.
Actually, even the Old testement does not actually have God as the great destroyer, buit a much more mixed bieng. Plus things like the Book of Jonah make it clear that people dont want the God of gentle but implacable power. They want the all raging all disaster tossing Hulk Smash God that will set fire to our enemies, but they keep getting the God of the Gentle Breeze.

As C S lewis said. “All that we call human history –money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery – is the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.”

C.S. Lewis stated in The Oxford Socratic Club (1944. pp. 154-165):

“If…I swallow the scientific cosmology as a whole, then not only can I not fit in Christianity, but I cannot even fit science.

If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on bio-chemistry, and bio-chemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”

https://www.fggam.org/2015/11/all-that- ... c-s-lewis/
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