JOE BIDEN

[ZinWhit]

1

[Suranis]

Even if that WAS true, among the only successes you people have had have been electing the Tea Party, George Walker Bush, and Donald John Trump.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to call people who are smugly proud of all that, and blame everyone else for that they did. If you were actually about changing the system, you wouldn't just run vanity candidates for President who only trash the Democratic Candidate.

And again, you don't breath a word about the other people killing Palestinians when I spend half my comment talking about them. Just one is bad to you because of an -ism which means something or other. All you do is trash ONE and use their imagined -ism crimes as a justification for trashing Democrats and letting Autocrats win.

Anyway, I'm done.

[ZinWhit]

1

[MN-Skeptic]

Frankly, "you people" who continue to press the lesser of two evils are the problem, accepting our continuing political, social, climate and species collapse.

Totally sucks to be in a democracy where other people vote, doesn't it?

[ZinWhit]

1

[MN-Skeptic]

Actually, it all depends on the state you live in.

In you live in California, for example, vote for whomever you want. Because of the Electoral College, your one vote won’t matter.

If, however, you live in a swing state and your vote would make the difference between Biden getting elected or Trump getting elected, then you’ll be demonized all the way to heck and back if your useless 3rd party vote results in Trump becoming the next President. You had the power to stop Trump and you didn’t.

[ZinWhit]

1

[MN-Skeptic]

Courting is just words. Politicians are great at courting. Not always so good at producing.

MAGAs love Trump because he courts them every day. He says exactly what they want to hear. Build the wall? Number on priority! Replace Obamacare? Of course he will! The best infrastructure bill ever passed? Of course! Yeah, that's Trump's courting.

No, I listen to the courting, but I pay a lot of attention to the actions. Are they actually producing legislation which could pass and supports the things I favor? For the president, what is the quality of the judges he nominates? Those judges and their actions will outlive the president's term and who they are is critical to my choice of president.

[tek]

In you live in California, for example, vote for whomever you want. Because of the Electoral College, your one vote won’t matter.

I'm gonna push back on this a little..
This was the excuse daughter.tek used when she was first eligible to vote.
After a decade or so I finally managed to convince her that you always vote, and you vote carefully.

The "your one vote won't matter" thinking can lead to very unfortunate outcomes.

Just IMHO.

[pipistrelle]

In you live in California, for example, vote for whomever you want. Because of the Electoral College, your one vote won’t matter.

I'm gonna push back on this a little..
This was the excuse daughter.tek used when she was first eligible to vote.
After a decade or so I finally managed to convince her that you always vote, and you vote carefully.

The "your one vote won't matter" thinking can lead to very unfortunate outcomes.

Just IMHO.

Participate no matter what. Your vote counts, even if it doesn't decide. Voting is a privilege we'd miss if we ever lost it.

[Suranis]

If my vote is so important, why does the DNC ignore me or, worse, take me for granted and then guilt trip? Nice way to treat a potential vote.

I live in Oregon. These days, it's looking more like a toss up.

Edit: HRC ignored WI before the '16 election, taking it for granted.

It was my fault.

You mean when Hillary was going 8 interviews a day and the Media and online trolls were saying that she wasn't doing any interviews and ignoring the press?

And when the Russians hacked the DNC, got a hold of their models, and used them to hide the fact that certain states were in trouble? Hillary said herself that if she said any idea places like Oregon was in trouble she would have been down there in a flash. She can only be in one place at any one time, what would you have done with your time?

And yes, it is your fault, Both for not casting your vote just in case, and vour encouraging other people to not vote because of your hurt fee fees. The fact that you feel hurt that people are telling you to take responsibility for your own actions says lot more about you than the DNC. Fucking own up to the consequences of your actions, man.

Hell, Obama might have gotten more done if the Left wing actually had his back for a single second. If you want them to listen to you, try not being the party of I HATE YOU!!! for 15 seconds, and have the Lesser Evils back when they actually need it when they are fighting crap you hate.

If it wasn't for people like you, more Democrats would have actually stood up and supported the ACA and Obama in the 2014 election. Everyone that did won and won handily. But people like you, and the media, persuaded Democratic Candidates that the ACA and Obama were not popular. And when they failed to support either the Dem polling numbers fell through the floor. You had a part to play in the Dem wipeout in 2014, because the ACA was not everything you wanted therefore its 100% evil. Lets give Joe Lieberman a few more hugs!

Yes, I have a very good memory for this shit.

And then you spend 2016 yelping that a guy who list to Hillary Clinton by 3.6 million Democratic voter votes would be better able to take on Donald Trump. And and shouted all about them cheating and rules and bullshit. Even with all your griping and depressing the vote, Clinton still beat Trump by 2.7 million votes.

So ya, sorry that you feel ignored because the Democratic Base still voted overwhelmingly for Hillary Clinton, and is now voting overwhelmingly for Joe Biden. That's Representative Democracy for you.

[ZinWhit]

1

[Ben-Prime]

If my vote is so important, why does the DNC ignore me or, worse, take me for granted and then guilt trip? Nice way to treat a potential vote.

So, just to confirm here: Is it ignoring you or taking you for granted to disagree about policy on any other matter?

This one is touchy for me. Because it's a writ-large version of a stupid fight I had with an ex-boss over a decade ago that I still use as example in poor management. At the time, I did a very quick series of calculations in my head to give him a back of the envelope answer on a question without showing him the back of the envelope work -- as it was, as noted, in my head -- and because the answer was not what he wanted to hear, he spent 15 minutes berating me for not taking the question seriously. I then educated him on exactly what went into the answer that seemed to him to come out of nowhere. It's just that because he couldn't fathom anyone having a different opinion from his or actually having reasons for thinking otherwise than in lockstep with him, to him, an answer that wasn't along the lines that he was thinking was flippant and disrespectful to the question.

Why does it have to be that disagreeing with you on this matter is ignoring you rather than simply factoring in things you either aren't or weigh differently and thereby coming to a different conclusion? And why this issue as opposed to any other political issue?

[ZinWhit]

1

[Ben-Prime]

Folks tout big D democracy yet restrict themselves and the electorate to the false choice of two party little d democracy (did I get that line from Putin, Suranis? *roll*) IMHV, a two party system is NOT a legitmate democracy. It's fake, illustrated by those who denounce, chastise my right to vote for neither, as though illegitmate.

For me, the issue here is that I think you're oversimplifying. This is I think our first back-and-forth interaction here, and I'm not as prolific as some, so let me restate a biographical detail to put this in perspective:

From 1990, as a 20 year old grad student, until the heat of the 2020 election, I was a registered and devout Libertarian. I always considered myself a left-libertarian -- and remain so with a small 'l' -- so I was never 100% at home with the party nor comfortable in big meetings. I walked away during the 2020 election when I saw how blatantly guanopsychotic anarcho-capitalist right-libertarian the rank and file were becoming. Now, I remain NPA because I realize I *won't* be at home with any of the modern political parties large or small. But my best friend until his death in late 2018 was a volunteer staffer for the "Tax Wall Street Party" and I was able to spend several nights getting drunk and well-fed with him and the Party's then-head, and despite differences of some policies, there was a great chunk we agreed on. And we did agree that in an ideal America of multi-party democracy, there'd be wrangling and multi-partisan coalitions on a wide range of issues and each individual policy would get debated on merits and decided by how many small parties were willing to compromise on one issue to win a victory in another area.

That said, yeah, I think you're oversimplifying. You build consensus to the full platform of ideas by starting from the bottom. One of the big problems of every 'third party' alternative is that most of them want to make splashes by running a candidate for President instead of really putting in the longer-term work of starting small and building big from the local level by showcasing policies and ideas which differ from both parties. Now, I get it, some policies can only take place at the federal level so in order to showcase, build, or enact those policies and the platforms they become in accumulation, you need someone in federal office. But one congresscrank ain't gonna do much, so that's when you start building wide as well as tall. You need to have these debates and discussions in communities across the country, and you need to have them over time. As much as I don't always agree with Bernie, or AOC, or Liz Warren, I thought their rise *in every case* a wonderful way to showcase that the Democratic party can embrace or at least caucus with ideas outside its mainstream. I feel the same way about Tlaib.

You know how your side wins this? Elect more Muslims to Congress across the country. Elect more non-Muslims who share your specific views on most of your policies at the local and then state and then Congressional level to office either in the Democratic Party or as independents. Decide what compromises you can live with. BUILD the Congress you want to see. And then use it to pressure the President on policy from within the co-equal branch of government.

Otherwise, the sad reality is that as much as you and I and most sane people want otherwise, this broken two-party system is what we have. And the reality is that you screaming that you're going to withhold your vote from a candidate because of a broken system would be the same as the Chief Executive of a small-to-medium size regional business wanting to fire his entire 2-person IT development team because they couldn't recreate the work of Google's exponentially larger and better funded armies of developers. Anyone with a business degree and any real knowledge of how Google did the trick knows that it's not going to happen that way.

Likewise, especially because of the political science degree you note that you have, you should know all of the above is true or at least nearer to the truth regarding how parties will be successful.

I get it. The Israel-Palestine situation is huge. [Disclaimer: I am a very secular Jew who is for Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland, but opposed to the far-right and ultra-orthodox grip on its policy and politics] Real lives are being lost. More are at risk. But that doesn't change the fact that the shortcut isn't going to work, and saying that it's Joe Biden's fault that your taking of a shortcut to get the policy you want doesn't work is madness. I urge you to think about this. And please know that I do so without rancor, though -- yeah, I cop to it -- much wordiness.

[ZinWhit]

1

[Suranis]

Why should they go for a younger Candidate when this candidate has been the most effective President your country has had in forever?

If its just "oh they just should" then that's no reason at all. Younger is not necessarily better. And "younger" does not mean "more progressive" either. Progressives hated Obama and he was pretty young as they go. Obama also proves that this monolithic DNC does make Democrats elect younger candidates on occasion.

Anyway, not very many people agree with you about stuff. Welcome to the club. We have Mint Cookies.

[ZinWhit]

1

[Suranis]

Why should they go for a younger Candidate when this candidate has been the most effective President your country has had in forever?

I almost spit my drink.

Good stuff.

It's the truth. Its certainly more supported by evidence than the DNC MAKING people vote for the Oldies to spite you, the real base.

https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/bide ... is-leaving

Biden’s Successful Presidency Is Leaving Trump With Nothing To Run On Other Than His Madness - Over the past few months, I’ve been arguing that the clear success of the Biden Presidency was causing Trump’s core attacks to evaporate. Let’s review:

The economy is terrible - it’s among the best in the modern era.

Inflation is ravaging American workers - inflation is way down, prices are falling, real wages are increasing more rapidly now than in decades; and the big spike we saw in inflation and gas prices in 2022 was caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and OPEC, not Joe Biden.

Crime is spiraling out of control - violent crime and murder rates have plummeted across the US and are a fraction of what they were 30 years ago. Other than mass shootings America is far safer today.

The President’s “war on energy” caused inflation to spike, and loss of American energy independence (this is so laughable) - we saw record domestic production of oil, gas and renewables in 2023, making the US more energy independent than it’s been in decades. If Biden waged a war on energy it was a huge failure.

Biden is corrupt - that one went up in flames, spectacularly, last week, and pushed the deeply damaging “GOP is a Russian fifth column narrative” back into the news.

Open Borders!!!! - With Trump blocking a sensible border deal, it is now he who is seeking chaos and immigrants flowing into our cites and it is Biden working diligently, across party lines, to bring order to the border and a more orderly flow of immigrants to America. We are now the party of order, and Republicans the party of chaos, something that will be reinforced this week if the government shuts down, and they keep denying Ukraine the aid we must provide. This emerging frame of order/normalcy/patriotism vs chaos/extremism/betrayal of the country is something we need to keep exploring.

Biden’s successful Presidency has left Republicans with nothing other than Trump’s madness. Look at these excerpts from Trump’s CPAC speech this week, via Axios:

"Four years ago," Trump says in prepared remarks, "I told you that if Crooked Joe Biden got to the White House, our borders would be abolished, our middle class would be decimated, and our communities would be plagued by bloodshed, chaos and violent crime. As the saying goes: Trump was right about everything."

"Crooked Joe and his henchmen have you trapped on an express train barreling toward ruin and servitude," Trump continues. "A vote for Trump is your ticket back to freedom. It's your passport out of tyranny. And it's your only escape from Joe Biden's fast track to hell."

If all of this sounds ridiculous, it is. They are having to invent a fictional President to run against because they can’t beat the one that’s in the Oval Office. Joe Biden’s successful Presidency is leaving them with nothing to run on, and further exposing how historically awful and dangerous they’ve become. Extremism is all they have now, and it’s a big big problem for them.

The fact is, actual democrats are voting for Biden because... they like him???

https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/demo ... -president

Democrats Really Like Joe Biden - A central reason why Joe Biden has no primary challenge, and the party is remarkably unified as we head deeper into 2024 is that Democrats are happy with their President. Consider this data from recent Economist/YouGov polls (https://today.yougov.com/topics/politic ... uGov_polls), which have the general election tied (the cohort is “Party ID with Leaners” - meaning it’s Democrats and independents who lean Democrat). It’s Biden:

Job Approval - 82% approve, 16% disapprove (highest w/18-29 year olds)

Jobs/Economy Approval - 78% approve, 18% disapprove (+60)

Foreign Policy Approval - 71% approve, 21% disapprove (+50)

2024 Vote Intent - Biden 86%, Trump 4%, Other 3%

Poll04.jpg (119.18 KiB) Viewed 304 times

Democrats like their President, think he is doing a good job, and are going to fight very hard to get him re-elected. We have work to do to bring our entire coalition along, but I feel good about where we are, and if we do the work, should have the election all of us want to have this year.

I'm sure you will invent a reason why the writer of this, Simon Rosenberg, is a shill that cant be trusted etc etc, but Fact is Biden is doing a good Job, and arguably more successful than Obama managed.

Yes I disagree strongly with Biden's energy policy, but it pretty much means that Republicans have nothing to run on.

[ZinWhit]

1

[Suranis]

Img from the same poll you reference. Look at those IND figures.

Further, you didn't address...

"Biden is trailing Trump by an average of five points in the seven swing states: North Carolina (9), Arizona (6), Georgia (6), Nevada (6), Pennsylvania (6), Wisconsin (4) and Michigan (2), the Bloomberg/Morning Consult poll found."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/saradorn/2 ... aa5d4a2c77

*Sigh* Stop moving the goalposts. You cackled when I said Biden is one of the strongest Presidents in a while. I posted stuff that showed that Republicans have zero ammo to attack him on.

I also said that having a younger guy wouldn't satisfy progressives, and gave Obama as an example. Bill Clinton was 46 when he was elected by the way, so he want a good match either.

THEN I posted something about how Democrats LIKE the guy. Which means that the Almighty DNC isn't cheating the base by having him on the ticket.

Then you posted an image and talked about INDEPENDENTS on a question about whether he should run. Saying that he should not run does NOT mean that you wont vote for the guy when presented with him, so its essentially meaningless. AND AND you would have to balance it by showing how many of the categories think TRUMP should not run again.

Since I'm that kind of ass, here's the poll your image was taken from I spend 20 minutes of my life hunting it down. The Number on the same Indep line is 58% thinking Trump shouldn't run, 29% thinking he should. https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/d ... LG2Z6p.pdf

Sadly, the Yougov poll I took MY image from DIDN'T ADDRESS WHETHER BIDEN COULD RUN AGAIN. I just looked, it was the poll from the week before. That means that I wasn't hiding anything! I'm so eeeeviiillll by not mentioning something that wasn't in the poll I posted from...

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/d ... dium=email

But anyway, the point I was making and didn't address that was that you complaining about how the DNC is denying you the real base their way is not correct. The fact is that fact the Base just likes Biden and voting for him to run. This is the Salient point - Since it is a primary, the views of Independents are not relevant at this time.

FINALLY, saying "Further, you didn't address..." when you drag in a completely different poll that wasn't mentioned AT ALL, and addressing issues we were not talking about AT ALL, is kinda proving you are moving the goalposts in order to "destroy me".

PLUS, the link you posted is blank. In short how the fuck can I "address" something that was not part of the conversation and not part of the same poll, and when I click on your link it comes up blank?

Sorry I didn't address stuff that we weren't talking about. But if you want me to address it, fine. I'll just say "How did the 'Red Wave' go again?"

[ZinWhit]

1

[Suranis]

*Shrug* Trump has been under-performing Public Polls in every Primary so far (meaning he is getting less than polls suggest he will). The comparison with the Red Wave is valid. I'd be happier with "your candidate"'s record compared with that.

[Dr. Ken]

[raison de arizona]