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Russian Military Organization

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Gregg
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Russian Military Organization

#1

Post by Gregg »

Somehow I thought to create a new topic before going off on a tangent. You know, you grow...

Anyhow, I was once a lowly Infantry Officer in the Army, for a minute actually in the Infantry. Specifically, the 3rd Bttn of the 502nd Parachute Infantry and then after I convinced them to let me drive, the 101st Combat Aviation Regiment, and a few others here and there. As such I learned a very little about how the Soviet Army was set up to oppose us. :hammersickle:

Our NATO mission was to deploy behind the Fulda Gap after an invasion, cutting off the something something Motorized Division of the Soviet Red Army. That's what the Air Assault Division is set up to do, to this day, go behind them, cut them off from their supply train and hope someone destroys them before they turn around and kill us because we were a lot smaller and lighter unit they them.

Or so I understood it at the time. I was just barely above peon, a 1LT when I attacked a tree with a motorcycle, broke my right side and ended my ability to get a Class 1 Physical and the Army told me I could go back to the Infantry or go home, so I went to London to learn Economics from Communists and never looked back...

Image

That's where I'm coming from. I love this stuff and I just wanted to talk about how the Russian Army operates, what they might do etc... Kind of like a crowd sourced Tom Clancy book, and I was gonna start it off with what I remember we were taught and what we used as set up stories for war games and training. The thing that got me started was a discussion of conscripts. So that's what I wanted to hi jack another thread about and decided for once to start a new one instead. Please feel free to contribute.

All discussion is how I remember things from 40 years ago, subject to my ebbing memorry and some being just wrong because,m well, I was told wrong. If we want to source things, that's great, add a link, but I'm not gonna :gotalink:

Okay, Conscripts... (and now my arm is aching so this is gonna be short)

I was told that the Soviet Union drafted conscripts in mass every 6 months for a term of 2 years and their units were made up of 4 classes. The NCO corps was essentially the 3rd and 4th class of their conscripts and as such, not professional soldiers as in Western Armies. Because of this, they relied much more heavily on their Company Grade Officers (Lieutenants and Captains) for logistical and administrative functions. Any professional soldier knows this is what wins wars. Someone important once said amateurs' talk strategy, professionals talk logistics. In our Army, Company Grade officers would be responsible for tactics, teaching soldiers how to fight, the mechanics of moving and using groups of soldiers as coherent units from Platoon to Company Level. The NCOs would responsible for logistics, making sure those soldiers had bullets and food and for moving and controlling fire teams and squads. If you're trying to destroy a Battalion, hit its staff command post, destroy a company by killing the Captain, XO and the 1st Sergeant. Just taking out those three people would make a company of 200 soldiers about useless as a tactical unit for 24 hours, and in combat, that is enough. But in a western army, that only gives you 24 hours, a company level unit can be fixed from within in about 24 hours. A Russian unit, not so much. You take out the Commander and XO (called a Chief of Staff even at company level in the Soviet Army) and that company is dead. They don't have the bench to fight that unit and replacing those few officers takes longer. Their command structure didn't encourage people to step up and take over, they sit and wait for high command to send someone new and in combat that could take a while, potentially a long while. At best, they're big chunk of a bigger chunk of the Regiment and could possibly be crippling that whole Regiment until they're made whole. Until then they sit and consume supplies. And make a target of themselves, because while killing a few officers might work to cripple them for a week, destroying them in a more letteral way works even better.

Gotta stop, no typing left in my arm...
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#2

Post by Slim Cognito »

This may be my newest favorite thread.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#3

Post by Frater I*I »

Ivan also has the issue that his equipment is still stuck in the cold war...

The T-90 rolled off the line in 1990, the replacement T-14 mass production starts this year. Unlike the M1A2 tanks we use, the T-90 isn't upgradeable to modern standards.

Though Ivan has next gen jets, he doesn't have many, as with helicopters as well, so he's stuck with a large amount of cold war era versions of those.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#4

Post by p0rtia »

Thanks, Greg!

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Re: Russian Military Organization

#5

Post by Gregg »

Frater I*I wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:47 pm Ivan also has the issue that his equipment is still stuck in the cold war...

The T-90 rolled off the line in 1990, the replacement T-14 mass production starts this year. Unlike the M1A2 tanks we use, the T-90 isn't upgradeable to modern standards.

Though Ivan has next gen jets, he doesn't have many, as with helicopters as well, so he's stuck with a large amount of cold war era versions of those.
I was mostly an AH-1G pilot and my fears, in order, AA guns, RPGs, air superiority fighters, ground attack fighters and... big breath... the MIL24 Attack Helicopter.

I still have nightmares. They had 2 of them at Ft Campbell that brought from if they told me they'd have to kill me and they're tanks with blades. As far as shooting one down from a Cobra, a TOW would work, if you have the titanium testicles required to have a stare out with someone who has 50 ways to leave his lover and 52 to kill you. When you fire a Tube launched, Optically sighted, Wire guided missile at something, it's supposed to be a tank on the ground who not only doesn't have much to shoot back with and damn likely doesn't see you or the missile you fired until "tank go boom". A Hind has plenty to shoot back, sees you real good before the launch flare that means "hey, over here, I need to be berry quiet for 30 seconds while that missile is in the air" and as often as not will be very unhappy that you are shooting missiles at him. At that point, when you have to hover real still for 30 seconds or so, your time to make peace with Jesus is about 29 seconds or less.

Looking face to face with a Hind 30 miles behind the Fulda Gap is what we in the business called a bad day.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#6

Post by Gregg »

Combined Arms Battles are rock-paper-scissors played for bigger stakes.

Artillery beats Infantry
Infantry beats Armor
Armor beats Artillery

Air Superiority beats everything. 💓
Anti-Aircraft makes Air Superiority hard.
A good map is essential.

Like as much as a towel essential.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#7

Post by Gregg »

Frater I*I wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:47 pm Ivan also has the issue that his equipment is still stuck in the cold war...

The T-90 rolled off the line in 1990, the replacement T-14 mass production starts this year. Unlike the M1A2 tanks we use, the T-90 isn't upgradeable to modern standards.

Though Ivan has next gen jets, he doesn't have many, as with helicopters as well, so he's stuck with a large amount of cold war era versions of those.
I'm old enough to have to remember all the vulnerable things about T72 and T80s. Christie Chasis, external fuel tanks, weak top armor and limited visibility. Some Cobras are tasked anti tank, some ground support fire and some unlucky guy got the Hess-Thuringian stare out with the flying naval guns. Late on, they were starting to get real guns on Little Birds which were still hopelessly outgunned but more nimble, they were better at outflying a Hind and surviving when they annoyed them. Our mission might be blowing up tanks to protect our big guns, blowing up Infantry to protect our tanks or playing the best game ever, find the antennas, where you are Colonel Hunting, find an APC with wheels instead of tracks and lots of antennas znd Bingo, you've found a Bttn Commander or better. In a moving combined attack you can immobilize a Regiment by blowing up the antennas. The Ukrainian forward commandos are currently leading the league in this category. They're mucho grande good at it. Ask Putin and whatever unlucky bastard is telling him how the game went today how much getting a few Generals killed messes up a picnic.

I'm writing on my phone, sorry for the typos and breaking up posts.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#8

Post by Mr brolin »

Some random reminiscences

In ones dim and sordid past, one had the fun and games of a having potentially very, very, very low life expectancy if Ivan and the Warsaw Pact hordes should ever come thundering through the Fulda Gap......

The attacks, if they occurred were seen as existential attacks on Western society and civilization as a whole

A point to remember was that such an attack was expected to rapidly escalate to the Soviet use of chemical, nuclear and potentially biological weapons at the "theatre" or "tactical" level in almost all scenarios'. The Soviet doctrine of the use of WMD's had an artificial view that they could and would use these in a theatre at the tactical level and there would not be an escalation by NATO to strategic weapons such as ICBM's.

This insane theory seems to work for the Russians still, witness the attacks in London using chemical weapons and radiative weapons such as in Salisbury recently.

Unlike Gregg, my work would have tended to the mud and puddle jumper type along with an uncomfortable amount of "up close and personal" work. We didn't use the rather anodyne and childish phrasing du jour of today such as "high impact low visibility kinetic operations in a mobile high energy environment", more along the lines of "Break their sh*t, kill their commanders, terrify their troops and sow the ground with salt"

Rather the units I built and led were intended to perform the less pleasant work, as described by Gregg to degrade the Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence efficacy of our foes. They were generally labelled as "Phoenix" (rise from the ashes) and SANDman (Search and Destroy) teams

We built a selection of personnel who would got to deep and small bunkers and redoubts to be rolled over then pop up and create unpleasant mayhem in the rear and immediate rear of the enemy.

As noted already, the Soviets (as was) Russians as now tend to have a fragile, top down command infrastructure without a strong, able NCO complement. Ergo, targets were prioritised as officers, effective senior NCO's and all members of the KGB/GRU who would be attached to units.

The tools of choice included sniper work, calling in Artillery and Arc Light bomber strikes, ABC/NBC report and identification, sabotage, command "interdiction" with an additional emphasis on the political infrastructure (KGB/GRU).

If Soviet use of chemical warfare occurred OR tactical nuclear strikes OR the attacks were not being contained then local release of tactical nuclear weapons including ADM's (Atomic Demolition Munitions) and above was to be authorised from preplaced stores with approval/release being issued at a very low level of on the ground authorisation.

Since at the time Permissive Action Links (the "locks") on a tactical nuclear device were either not in use, were ineffective (code of 00000000 or 12345678) or mechanical (not much better than a cheap bicycle lock). this was not a particularly difficult matter to implement

The Soviet doctrine of the past was heavy on fast, mobile strikes along the "schwerpunkt" (main axes of attack) with brutal second echelon troops performing "cleaning actions" behind the main thrust. These tended to similar tactics as in Ukraine, with the civilian population seen as at best a hinderance, usually a legitimate target and always a potential source of partisan activity that would be suppressed via violent dehumanising attacks.

Attacking the officers and leaders was always seen as a potential two edged sword as Soviet doctrine was for reprisals against civilians. The rather cold blooded "real-politik" view was that in the case of such a series of attacks, the civilian casualties would happen anyway, even if nothing was done and disruption of the invaders outweighed the potential civilian violence. There was also a view that such atrocities would fuel further attacks by the civilian and reservist troops against the Soviets.

As an example of how paranoid the Soviet/Russian mindset was/is as well as how badly and quickly this could escalate, I was a part of a big ole NATO exercise Operation Able Archer in 1983.......... The problem was it was seemingly so realistic to the Soviets that they actually prepared to go to war and spun up silos's, pre-dispersed nuclear armed bombers and started moving troops out of barracks to dispersed fall forward / fall back positions.

The reason I remember it so well, is I was suddenly ordered from my home unit to a dispersal location close to the old West German boarder, had training ammunition replaced with live ammunition and was told to bunker hunker and monitor for indicators of ABC/NBC with a series of sealed orders and "resource identification locations" to be opened "in the circumstances of a viable positive response for chemical, biological or nuclear events or if loss of communication with command or authenticated flash traffic messages were issued".

Fortunately the exercise ended without a nuclear holocaust, sealed paperwork and stuff were returned.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#9

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

:shock:
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#10

Post by Mr brolin »

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:12 am :shock:
At times, during the Cold War, we, as in humanity, skated to within literally minutes of MAD waaaaay more than once........ :cantlook: :flame: :biggun: :nooo:
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#11

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

TMI!!!! :shock:
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#12

Post by Slim Cognito »

Mr brolin wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:19 am
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:12 am :shock:
At times, during the Cold War, we, as in humanity, skated to within literally minutes of MAD waaaaay more than once........ :cantlook: :flame: :biggun: :nooo:
A few years ago I read about our system malfunctioning, erroneously signaling Moscow had either launched something at us, or were about to. Carter was prez and they waited patiently while the data was analyzed.

False alarm.

On phone at doc office. Will link later.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#13

Post by MN-Skeptic »

Mark Hertling - "Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (Ret.) (@MarkHertling) was commander of U.S. Army Europe from 2011-2012. He also commanded 1st Armored Division in Germany and Multinational Division-North during the surge in Iraq from 2007-2009" - is someone I follow on Twitter. He had the following long article in The Bulwark. I thought it was very interesting.

I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here’s What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies.

One excerpt, from a trip to Russia in 1994 -
I traveled to Russia with a civilian Russian expert from the State Department, a brigadier general from the Army Staff College at Ft. Leavenworth, and a few staffers from the Defense Department. Another battalion commander and I were potted plants on this trip because the Russians wanted to talk to American “subject matter experts” on U.S. tanks and U.S. command and control methods. That was fine by us. Our itinerary had us visiting Russian armor and signal units, going into Russian military barracks, observing Russian units on firing ranges and conducting exercises, and climbing on military vehicles displayed in motor pools near Moscow. Our job was to stay quiet, observe, and take lots of mental notes.

The Russian barracks were spartan, with twenty beds lined up in a large room similar to what the U.S. Army had during World War II. The food in their mess halls was terrible. The Russian “training and exercises” we observed were not opportunities to improve capabilities or skills, but rote demonstrations, with little opportunity for maneuver or imagination. The military college classroom where a group of middle- and senior-ranking officers conducted a regimental map exercise was rudimentary, with young soldiers manning radio-telephones relaying orders to imaginary units in some imaginary field location. On the motor pool visit, I was able to crawl into a T-80 tank—it was cramped, dirty, and in poor repair—and even fire a few rounds in a very primitive simulator.

The only truly impressive and surprising part of the tour was when we walked through a “secret” field museum that had tanks from all the armies in the world—including several from the United States. The Russians had somehow managed to obtain an M1 Abrams tank (probably from one of their allies in the Middle East), and we all believed the reason they allowed us into this facility was to show us they had our most modern armor.

We then visited our host unit’s motor pool, stationed just outside Moscow. By that time, the Russian regimental commander and I had become friendly, and as he walked us toward the display of vehicles, he proclaimed that I was lucky to be one of the few Americans to see a Russian T-72 up close. With tongue firmly in cheek, I told the translator to tell the colonel that having fought in Desert Storm, I had seen many T-72s—but none of them still had the turret attached. :lol: The interpreter hesitated and asked me if I really wanted to say that to his colonel. Nodding my head, I watched my new friend’s face turn red, but then transition to a slight grin. “Those were the export versions we gave the Iraqis.”
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#14

Post by Mr brolin »

Slim Cognito wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:11 am
Mr brolin wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:19 am
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:12 am :shock:
At times, during the Cold War, we, as in humanity, skated to within literally minutes of MAD waaaaay more than once........ :cantlook: :flame: :biggun: :nooo:
A few years ago I read about our system malfunctioning, erroneously signaling Moscow had either launched something at us, or were about to. Carter was prez and they waited patiently while the data was analyzed.

False alarm.

On phone at doc office. Will link later.
1983, false alarm where the Russian Early Warning system flashed up an apparent ICBM launch from CONUS followed by indicators of a further 5 launches.

The whole thing is covered in a lot of obfuscation and hearsay as the Russian Lt Col Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov who was the duty officer at the time, deliberately refused to follow protocol and assumed the launch alerts were false alarms rather than reporting it, which would have triggered the Soviet Union's strategy of an immediate and compulsory nuclear counter-attack against the United States (launch on warning).

The fact he didn't end up being fed, feet first into an arc furnace is probably the most unexpected result......
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#15

Post by Chilidog »

i’ve been following Trent Telenko on twitter.

a few recent and illuminating threads




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Re: Russian Military Organization

#16

Post by Chilidog »

more on logistics

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Re: Russian Military Organization

#17

Post by Chilidog »

More on Russian tanks

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Re: Russian Military Organization

#18

Post by Gregg »

I remember my first serious NBC training, Infantry Hall, Ft Benning. A full bird Colonel from the Chemical Corp taught a class that I think I've mentally blocked most of it out to this day, it was just to terrifying to think about. It is the day I became a "no nukes" person, because even as a 21 year old kid full on into my blood in your teeth indoctrination at IOBC I understood that we, as a society, have no business making decisions that require plans stretching 24,000 years into the future. The "N" or Nuclear part of NBC (the others being Biological and Chemical) was the part least scary to me. You blow shit up, a lot of shit with a serious lot of blow up, and the dust is the most toxic substance on earth for the next 24,000 years. Oh, and we just blew 4 million tons of it into the upper wind patterns so over the course of a few months it pretty much blankets the earth.

The not scary part.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#19

Post by Chilidog »

unconfirmed, but not surprising.

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Re: Russian Military Organization

#20

Post by Mr brolin »

Ah the joys of training...... I did some work with the British Army and their equipment as well as MOPP US suits and respirators.

I had the exquisite fun of learning just how horribly uncomfortable both were when still fully suited and booted and you have to run a combat march and shoot, advance to combat and ambush drills whilst given seconds to don and doff the instruments of torture.

Got to experience stabbing myself with different styles of long needled, saline filled pen-jectors as training.

Breathed deeply of CS in the gas chambers multiple and various.

Bayonet drill with a respirator until you vomit THEN have to clean the ressie in never enough time, sitting a circle before getting having a CS grenade go off in the centre of you and fellow victims.

Three day exercises of run, gun, eat, drink and ...... other bodily functions whilst continually in and out of the damn suits.

Then realised that no matter how bad it had felt, when we tried the rubber, impermeable Russian suit how it was infinitely worse.....
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#21

Post by Gregg »

OH you just triggered me. MOPP gear, Ft Benning, August. I need a Xanax now. I was somehow spared the day they had to do the CS gas thing, I think I was on some special duty that day and was supposed to make it up but just decided they'd remind me and I wasn't gonna complain.

Just the mask was a serious pain in the ass, and I have been forced to fly a helicopter in one of those. But this is true, I always, always kept a fresh still in the sealed bags MOPP suit with me, in the trunk of my car and everywhere on the Cold War chance that Russia was gonna start WWIII by dropping nerve gas on US bases, here and abroad. I think one reason I loved Panama so much was it was the place I felt most safe from Russians and if were gonna get shot at there it was gonna be by people I was much less afraid of.

Very interesting discussion on pallets, containers and such. I knew, though many don't, that the modern ubiquitous shipping container was a creation of the US Vietnam Era Military Industrial Complex. Having standardized shipping arrangements is a strategic action.

The "Three Russian Army lieutenants..." story is what I was talking about above about the flexibility of command. That unit had a shortage of people with the ability of driving a truck who knew how to do so.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#22

Post by John Thomas8 »

Got my dose while training at Ft. Leonard Wood.

My understanding of the Soviet/Russian army hierarchy is pretty much like others who've posted here. I too got to hang out in the Fulda Gap, as part of the speed bump 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment among other assignments.

Urban legend is that discipline was maintained with an officer's Tokarev, but I've not seen confirmation of that.
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#23

Post by Frater I*I »

I did my NBC training at exotic Camp Swampy [AKA Lejeune]...in August. My drink addled brain refuses to pull up anything more from the database than that...
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Re: Russian Military Organization

#25

Post by Foggy »

It's not Veteran's Day but I would still like to thank all our vets for their service ... and for sharing, now that your service has unfortunately become very, very relevant ... :?
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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