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Russia Invades Ukraine

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Kriselda Gray
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2026

Post by Kriselda Gray »

Neither the US nor Russia particpate in the ICC, IIUC. What can their arrest warrant accomplish?
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2027

Post by Dave from down under »

Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:01 am Neither the US nor Russia particpate in the ICC, IIUC. What can their arrest warrant accomplish?
If he flees the Revolution
or
if he is captured.
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2028

Post by Kriselda Gray »

Dave from down under wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:17 am
Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:01 am Neither the US nor Russia particpate in the ICC, IIUC. What can their arrest warrant accomplish?
If he flees the Revolution
or
if he is captured.
But if Russia doesn't recognize the court, how does the court have any jurisdiction over Putin? Not that I wouldn't like to see him prosecuted - that would be fantastic. I just don't get how it would be feasible or meaningful.
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2029

Post by RTH10260 »

Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:07 am
Dave from down under wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:17 am
Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:01 am Neither the US nor Russia particpate in the ICC, IIUC. What can their arrest warrant accomplish?
If he flees the Revolution
or
if he is captured.
But if Russia doesn't recognize the court, how does the court have any jurisdiction over Putin? Not that I wouldn't like to see him prosecuted - that would be fantastic. I just don't get how it would be feasible or meaningful.
If Putin makes a misstep and choses to visit a nation that is member (rather than stepping out of a highrise window), even with diplomatic immunity they may decide that he only can leave to visit the ICC.
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2030

Post by Kriselda Gray »

RTH10260 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:12 am
Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:07 am
Dave from down under wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:17 am

If he flees the Revolution
or
if he is captured.
But if Russia doesn't recognize the court, how does the court have any jurisdiction over Putin? Not that I wouldn't like to see him prosecuted - that would be fantastic. I just don't get how it would be feasible or meaningful.
If Putin makes a misstep and choses to visit a nation that is member (rather than stepping out of a highrise window), even with diplomatic immunity they may decide that he only can leave to visit the ICC.
Interesting - thanks!
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#2031

Post by Grumpy Git »

This horrible situation just breaks my heart on a daily basis.

I lived and worked in Poland for several years, not far from the Polish/Ukrainian border, so I visited Lviv in west Ukraine a couple of times, a lovely city.

I'm following news on this war regularly, for all its faults Twitter is very good for updates from the frontlines and from Ukrainian people in general, however some of the photos and videos are gruesome, some of them I have to scroll past/through quickly.

The UK and the US have been excellent in their support of Ukraine so far, but unlike many within the Republican party, there's still unity amongst British politicians to carry on helping.

I loathe our Conservative government for many other issues, but credit where it's due, our Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and his department have done a superb job so far with providing weapons, intelligence reports, and other infrastructure needs. :clap:

On a brighter note, if you're a vodka consumer, and can find it, this Ukrainian honey pepper Nemiroff is a lovely tasting beverage! :biggrin:
nemiroff.jpg
nemiroff.jpg (46.21 KiB) Viewed 667 times
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2032

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

I rarely read this thread because it just hurts to know what the Ukrainians are enduring. Thanks for your post, Grumpy!
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#2033

Post by Mr brolin »

Argh...... That bottle brings back horrible memories......... Some years ago, a long weekend in Moscow after a week of doing work and I was "introduced" to Georgian red pepper vodka by my bosses, bosses boss at his grotequely overdone and blinged out "dacha".

The next morning, waking up to a feeling that my eye balls had been poached in hot sand and a head where several trolls with large iron mallets had taken up residence.......
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#2034

Post by Flatpoint High »

Was Elon running this: Seized for non-payment
https://www.aviacionline.com/2023/03/ru ... l-dispute/
After a 25 million euros debt dispute, Kazakhstan authorities moved forward to seize property and assets that were administered by the Russian space agency, Roscosmos, in Baikonur cosmodrome.

Interfax news agency reported that the Court of the Astana International Financial Center (AIFC) ruled to recover over 2 billion rubles -around 26 million dollars– from the Center for the Operation of Ground-Based Space Infrastructure Objects (TsENKI) in favor of the joint Kazakh-Russian enterprise Baiterek.
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2035

Post by Gregg »

Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:07 am
Dave from down under wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:17 am
Kriselda Gray wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:01 am Neither the US nor Russia particpate in the ICC, IIUC. What can their arrest warrant accomplish?
If he flees the Revolution
or
if he is captured.
But if Russia doesn't recognize the court, how does the court have any jurisdiction over Putin? Not that I wouldn't like to see him prosecuted - that would be fantastic. I just don't get how it would be feasible or meaningful.

The ICC bases it's Universal Jurisdiction on laws that originated in the Golden Age of Piracy. In short, a irate threatens all civilization so a pirate (not a profiteer, a legal distinction) could be taken by any country, and indeed any private person who wanted to, and brought before any court, for the crime of piracy. Didn't matter if the court had no connection to an alleged act of piracy, if the alleged pirate had any connection to the court, a pirate was an enemy of all and therefore all could give him a fair trial and a good hanging. :thumbsup:

And the penalty for Piracy is pretty harsh, almost anyplace with a death penalty will hang a pirate and the way I read the US Law against Piracy, it carries a mandatory life term.
USC 18 Ch. 81 wrote:§1651.
Whoever, on the high seas, commits the crime of piracy as defined by the law of nations, and is afterwards brought into or found in the United States, shall be imprisoned for life.


Note, it doesn't say "up to life" or "20 years to life" or even "may be imprisoned for life" it says "shall be..." which I hear lawyers talking about how "shall be" means "did I stutter?" in law speak.

I don't even read that as actually requiring a trial. Seems to me that if he was tried, even in abstentia in another country, we're gonna lock him up like he has dick pics on his laptop until he assumes ambient temperature.
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#2036

Post by Kriselda Gray »

Gregg wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:25 pm The ICC bases it's Universal Jurisdiction on laws that originated in the Golden Age of Piracy. In short, a irate threatens all civilization so a pirate (not a profiteer, a legal distinction) could be taken by any country, and indeed any private person who wanted to, and brought before any court, for the crime of piracy. Didn't matter if the court had no connection to an alleged act of piracy, if the alleged pirate had any connection to the court, a pirate was an enemy of all and therefore all could give him a fair trial and a good hanging. :thumbsup:
Oh wow - I hadn't ever heard about that. Thanks for the explainer!
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#2037

Post by Dave from down under »

I'll just pirate this thread.... :pirate:

https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/htm ... t-1902-069

Piracy Punishment Act 1902 No 69

An Act to consolidate the Statutes relating to the punishment for Piracy.
1 Name of Act
This Act may be cited as the Piracy Punishment Act 1902.
2 Repeals
The Act second Victoria number ten, so far as the same adopts the Imperial Act first Victoria chapter eighty-eight is hereby repealed, except as to offences committed and things done or commenced before the passing of this Act, which shall be dealt with and continued, and in respect of which every right and liability shall remain as if this Act had not been passed.
3 Repeal of so much of certain Acts as relates to punishment
So much of the Imperial Acts mentioned in the Schedule hereto as relates to the punishment of the crime of piracy or of any offence by any of the said Acts declared to be piracy or of accessories thereto, is hereby repealed.
4 Punishment where piracy accompanied by assault with intent to murder etc
Whosoever with intent to commit, or at the time of, or immediately before, or immediately after, committing the crime of piracy, in respect of any ship or vessel, assaults with intent to murder any person being on board of or belonging to such ship or vessel, or
stabs, cuts, or wounds any such person, or unlawfully does any act by which the life of any such person may be endangered
shall be liable to penal servitude for life.
5 Punishment in other cases
Whosoever commits any offence which by any of the Imperial Acts mentioned in the Schedule hereto amounts to the crime of piracy and is thereby made punishable with death, shall be liable to penal servitude for life or for any term of years not less than fifteen or to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three years.
6 Punishment of accessories
In the case of every felony punishable under this Act:
every principal in the second degree, and every accessory before the fact shall be punishable in the same manner as the principal in the first degree is by this Act punishable, and
every accessory after the fact shall be liable to imprisonment for any term not exceeding two years.
7 Where persons may be sentenced to imprisonment, hard labour or solitary confinement may be ordered
Where any person is convicted of an offence punishable under this Act for which imprisonment may be awarded, the Court
may sentence the person to be imprisoned, or imprisoned and kept to hard labour in the common gaol or house of correction, and
may direct that the person be kept in solitary confinement for any portion or portions of such imprisonment or imprisonment with hard labour not exceeding one month at any one time, and not exceeding three months in any one year.
8 Nothing herein to affect Acts regulating management of prisons
Nothing in this Act shall affect the provisions of any Act relating to the management and control of prisons.

Schedule
(Sections 3, 5)
Reference to Act
Title or short title
28 Hen VIII, c 15
For Pirates.
11 & 12 W III, c 7
An Act for the more effectual suppression of piracy.
4 Geo I, c 2, s 7
An Act for the further preventing robbery, burglary, and other felonies; and for the more effectual transportation of felons and unlawful exporters of wool; and for declaring the law upon some points relating to pirates.
8 Geo I, c 24
An Act for the more effectual suppressing of piracy.
18 Geo II, c 30
An Act to amend an Act made in the eleventh year of the reign of King William the Third intituled an Act for the more effectual suppression of piracy.
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2038

Post by bob »

"Universal jurisdiction" in theory and practice are very different beasts.

Numerous cases worldwide were filed against, for example, Donald Rumsfeld; "universal jurisdiction" for torture and war crimes often were cited.

Rumsfeld did not die in a prison cell; nor did he ever stand trial.
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#2039

Post by Gregg »

bob wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:46 pm "Universal jurisdiction" in theory and practice are very different beasts.

Numerous cases worldwide were filed against, for example, Donald Rumsfeld; "universal jurisdiction" for torture and war crimes often were cited.

Rumsfeld did not die in a prison cell; nor did he ever stand trial.
Having a country with nuclear weapons that can also destroy your economy with one hand that would be very displeased with him ever facing any consequences probably had a lot to do with that. Teddy Roosevelt and all. :bag:

Yeah, I guess "Universal Jurisdiction" relies on a consensus that it applies in each circumstance.

Am I reading the US Statute correctly that if we find a Pirate we're gonna lock him up for life and the Judge doesn't have any discretion?
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2040

Post by Dave from down under »

U.S. Statutes Relating to Piracy
18 U.S.C. § 2280. Violence against maritime navigation

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both; and if the death
of any person results from conduct prohibited by this paragraph, shall be punished by
death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
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#2041

Post by Dave from down under »

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text ... chapter-81

§ 1651. Piracy under law of nations
§ 1652. Citizens as pirates
§ 1653. Aliens as pirates
§ 1654. Arming or serving on privateers
§ 1655. Assault on commander as piracy
§ 1656. Conversion or surrender of vessel
§ 1657. Corruption of seamen and confederating with pirates
§ 1658. Plunder of distressed vessel
§ 1659. Attack to plunder vessel
§ 1660. Receipt of pirate property
§ 1661. Robbery ashore

:hijacked: :pirate:

§ 1651. Piracy under law of nations
Whoever, on the high seas, commits the crime of piracy as defined by the law of nations, and is afterwards brought into or found in the United States, shall be imprisoned for life.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 774.)
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#2042

Post by bob »

The bottom line being, if some EU country (or other ICC signatory) decides to attempt to arrest Putin, Russia likely won't chuckle softly, "Oh, that rascally Vattel!" and go softly into the night.*

Which is why I believe there will be no attempt to arrest Putin. (Just as there was never an attempt to arrest Rumsfeld.)


* Unless it was part of a palace coup to install a new leader in Russia . . . .
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#2043

Post by Mr brolin »

Whilst Putin remains Head of State, there is precisely feck all squared teeth to the warrant. If Generalissmo President for Life is ever actually deposed then, depending on the whim of the next President for Life, Russia may hand him over or "accidently" transfer him to a country that may arrest and hand him over. The Slobodan Milosevic route.
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#2044

Post by Gregg »

Mr brolin wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:05 am Whilst Putin remains Head of State, there is precisely feck all squared teeth to the warrant. If Generalissmo President for Life is ever actually deposed then, depending on the whim of the next President for Life, Russia may hand him over or "accidently" transfer him to a country that may arrest and hand him over. The Slobodan Milosevic route.
"Bloodless coup"

A play, in one act

You landed where? Odessa?

awkward pause

Oh, damn, Vlad, we told the pilot St Petersburg, really.

another awkward pause

(cheerfully)Oh, well, sucks to be you, good luck!

finis
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Russia Invades Ukraine

#2045

Post by Dave from down under »

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-25/ ... /102122390

More than 12 months before the International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin over alleged war crimes, the city authorities in the Lithuanian capital of Vilnius made it clear where they thought the Russian President belonged.

Key points:

Lithuania was the first country to label Russia a "terrorist state" over its actions in Ukraine
The country's Soviet history means the war in Ukraine is familiar territory
Grassroots organisations have provided essential support to Ukraine's forces
In March last year, they draped a giant banner over the top of the city hall's office tower that read "Putin, The Hague is Waiting for You".

It remains there to this day.
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#2046

Post by Frater I*I »

Dave from down under wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:50 pm :snippity:

More than 12 months before the International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin over alleged war crimes, the city authorities in the Lithuanian capital of Vilnius made it clear where they thought the Russian President belonged.

:snippity:
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#2047

Post by Dave from down under »

Critical of the Russian army = 2 years in gulag
and his daughter in the "Social Rehabilitation Centre For Minors Number 5"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-29/ ... /102158102

Russian whose daughter drew anti-war picture gets two years' jail but flees

A Russian man who was investigated by police after his daughter drew an anti-war picture at school has been sentenced to two years in a penal colony on charges of discrediting the armed forces.

Key points:
The convicted man, Alexei Moskalyov, has fled from house arrest, and his whereabouts are unknown
Mr Moskalyov was investigated after his daughter drew an anti-war picture, prompting her school to call the police
Police then examined his social media activity, in which he was critical of the Russian army

But the whereabouts of the convicted man, Alexei Moskalyov, are unclear.

The court said in an official posting on VKontakte, which is similar to Facebook, that he had fled from house arrest.

Mr Moskalyov has been separated from his 13-year-old daughter Masha since he was placed under house arrest at the start of this month and she was moved to a children's home in their hometown of Yefremov, south of Moscow.

The case has provoked outcry among Russian human rights activists and sparked an online campaign to reunite the father and daughter.
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#2048

Post by RTH10260 »

The upheaval of the Russian society will be one of the unintended side effects of the Ukranian war. Men driven into involuntary conscription, returning dead home (or not at all). Disabled veterans with PTSD. Shops empty to a degree. War production limiting the economic output to the civilian sector. Workers in the army missing in the civilian economy. Limited travel opportunities.
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#2049

Post by Gregg »

RTH10260 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:34 am The upheaval of the Russian society will be one of the unintended side effects of the Ukranian war. Men driven into involuntary conscription, returning dead home (or not at all). Disabled veterans with PTSD. Shops empty to a degree. War production limiting the economic output to the civilian sector. Workers in the army missing in the civilian economy. Limited travel opportunities.
The Russian economy is well and truly screwed for at least 10 years and more like 50. Aside from the abovementioned depletion of the other male inputs going to military service and loss instead of working in the factories making things, the ability of those factories to make things is already set back to the 1950s or so because of sanctions. Within another year they won't have many airliners that are still flying because of spare parts issues and no one is going ever sell them another one because every Boeing and Airbus currently in Russia is essentially stolen. They can't get any computer chips so they can't manufacture anything that needs them, including the machines needed to manufacture things. It won't be too long before the machinery they use for agriculture starts to fall apart and then what, go back to collective farming using manual labor?

Pro Tip: people waiting in line for toilet paper can't organize revolutions but people who are hungry will always figure it out.
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#2050

Post by RTH10260 »

Pro TIp:

Invite the former impotus for a lenghty road trip thru the Potemkin villages and have him throw rolls of household paper .... :blackeye:
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