The Fake Electors
Re: The Fake Electors
what about Arizona’s fake electors?
i’d like to see Brnovich subpoenaed to explain why he failed to take any action against the violations of state law.
i’d like to see Brnovich subpoenaed to explain why he failed to take any action against the violations of state law.
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Re: The Fake Electors
Explain it to the committee under oath, Ron.Kendra wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:42 pm
Ron Johnson tells us he plans to release a statement today explaining what happened when his aide made an offer of fake MI and WI electors to Pence on Jan. 6.
“We are piecing this together. … You’ll find out what a nothing burger this is. It’s a complete non-story”
“It will all be clear and you’ll never have to ask me this question again,” he said.
“I’m going to give you everything we know. This happened 18 months ago.. My staffs involvement was over the course of minutes. My own personal involvement was probably seconds”
@tedbarrettcnn
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Re: The Fake Electors
The subpoenaed Arizona fake electors (Cottle and Pellegrino) are profiled here: Arizona Federation of Republican Women
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Re: The Fake Electors
A murderer’s possible involvement takes only seconds.keith wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:59 amExplain it to the committee under oath, Ron.Kendra wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:42 pm
Ron Johnson tells us he plans to release a statement today explaining what happened when his aide made an offer of fake MI and WI electors to Pence on Jan. 6.
“We are piecing this together. … You’ll find out what a nothing burger this is. It’s a complete non-story”
“It will all be clear and you’ll never have to ask me this question again,” he said.
“I’m going to give you everything we know. This happened 18 months ago.. My staffs involvement was over the course of minutes. My own personal involvement was probably seconds”
@tedbarrettcnn
Re: The Fake Electors
That's been one of the perks of not having Gym Jordan and gang on this committee, they haven't a clue what the Committee has.
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Re: The Fake Electors
Word on the street is that fake electors AZ GOP Chair Kelli Ward and her idiot husband have received fake elector grand jury subpoenas. FWIW.
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Re: The Fake Electors
Ron Johnson claims Rep Mike Kelly sent him PA elector docs to give to Mike Pence on Jan 6. Kelly denied having any knowledge of this. I just asked Johnson who is lying here, and more… video coming soon, stay tuned.
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Re: The Fake Electors
All of them. All of them are lying. Glad I could clear that up.Kendra wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:55 pm https://twitter.com/lawindsor/status/15 ... 2079437824Ron Johnson claims Rep Mike Kelly sent him PA elector docs to give to Mike Pence on Jan 6. Kelly denied having any knowledge of this. I just asked Johnson who is lying here, and more… video coming soon, stay tuned.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: The Fake Electors
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/24/politics ... index.htmlArizona GOP chair subpoenaed in federal investigation of fake electors
Arizona Republican Party Chair Kelli Ward and her husband, Michael Ward, were both subpoenaed Friday as part of the federal investigation into fake slates of electors, a source familiar with the matter tells CNN.
The investigative move is just the latest sign of the widening probe that stemmed from the January 6 insurrection. Federal investigators are pursuing information in all seven battleground states that former President Donald Trump lost and where his campaign convened fake electors, a person briefed on the matter told CNN.
The fake certificates were sent to the National Archives in the weeks after the election and had no impact on the electoral outcome.
Both of the Wards acted as so-called alternate electors in Arizona. The source also confirmed that two others involved in the effort, Nancy Cottle and Loraine Pellegrino, also received subpoenas.
Alexander Kolodin, an attorney for the Wards, told CNN: "This is an investigation based on allegations that our clients engaged in core First Amendment-protected activity, specifically, petitioning Congress for redress of grievances."
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Re: The Fake Electors
OK, I am dense.
This lawyer argues that submission of fraudulent documents to an official arm of the government is permitted under the "redress of grievances" clause of the 1A.
Didn't Terry Trussel and a host of sovcits do likewise with other so-called fraudulent documents, citizen grand juries, and their whole spiel? Maybe add in a soupçon of GIL too?
Don't people who chain themselves to trees in National Forests to protest or redress grievances get arrested for trespass or other minor crimes?
I cannot fathom how what these clowns did is a permitted exercise of free speech but the others are not.
This lawyer argues that submission of fraudulent documents to an official arm of the government is permitted under the "redress of grievances" clause of the 1A.
Didn't Terry Trussel and a host of sovcits do likewise with other so-called fraudulent documents, citizen grand juries, and their whole spiel? Maybe add in a soupçon of GIL too?
Don't people who chain themselves to trees in National Forests to protest or redress grievances get arrested for trespass or other minor crimes?
I cannot fathom how what these clowns did is a permitted exercise of free speech but the others are not.
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Re: The Fake Electors
except fake vote results are not a "redress", those papers were not submitted to the executive branch to take some action.humblescribe wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:19 pm OK, I am dense.
This lawyer argues that submission of fraudulent documents to an official arm of the government is permitted under the "redress of grievances" clause of the 1A.
Didn't Terry Trussel and a host of sovcits do likewise with other so-called fraudulent documents, citizen grand juries, and their whole spiel? Maybe add in a soupçon of GIL too?
Don't people who chain themselves to trees in National Forests to protest or redress grievances get arrested for trespass or other minor crimes?
I cannot fathom how what these clowns did is a permitted exercise of free speech but the others are not.
Re: The Fake Electors
The First Amendment is not limited to petitioning the executive branch. Grievances may be aired with an government entity.
* * *
Trussell is an interesting comparison: Trussell's failing was fraud; through either his words or reliance on his authority as the actual grand jury foreperson, he fraudulently sought to have the court clerk believe the fake jury's fake inditement was the actual jury's actual indictment.
Chaining oneself to a tree certainly is intended to convey a message, but it also a substantive crime (i.e., trespass). Which will lead back to core issues, i.e., exactly what crime did the fake "electors" commit, and how does one provide they committed it?
The fake "electors" hiding behind the First Amendment is entirely foreseeable, as they will publicly say their intent only was to express their belief that Biden did not win the election. While knowing that a prosecutor will have many thoughts about trying to prove what the fake "electors" privately believed (and intended), but never publicly said.
And, yes, intent is routinely inferred from circumstantial evidence in trials. But given the level of intent, the burden of proof, and likely bonus defense of "I was relying on the president's legal counsel's advice," it is unsurprising no prosecutor has gone after a fake "elector."
Whereas the J6 commission is seeking to prove the narrative that the big fishes knew the fake "electors" were a sham, and therefore fraudulent on their part.
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Re: The Fake Electors
I get what you said, Bob. Don't like it, but I get it.
It smells like fraud to me. The fact that these alternate electors did not make it into Pence's folder is irrelevant. The fact that they relied upon other people's counsel is irrelevant; they should have hired their own--maybe a couple of 'em and gotten a second opinion.
I guess I find it beneath contempt when people can game the system for purely bullshit reasons, and our court structure has no way to deal with it.
There needs to be a third rail in the court system to take care of this shit. Something that won't take years of civil discovery or years of pre-trial criminal litigation.
It smells like fraud to me. The fact that these alternate electors did not make it into Pence's folder is irrelevant. The fact that they relied upon other people's counsel is irrelevant; they should have hired their own--maybe a couple of 'em and gotten a second opinion.
I guess I find it beneath contempt when people can game the system for purely bullshit reasons, and our court structure has no way to deal with it.
There needs to be a third rail in the court system to take care of this shit. Something that won't take years of civil discovery or years of pre-trial criminal litigation.
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Re: The Fake Electors
I keep reading it as fake electrons. IIRC, extra electrons make you negative. That's not good for our country.
101010
Re: The Fake Electors
This is a really interesting point.humblescribe wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:51 pmThe fact that they relied upon other people's counsel is irrelevant; they should have hired their own--maybe a couple of 'em and gotten a second opinion.
"Advice of counsel" is often a helpful defense, either directly or indirectly, because it helps show the lack of criminal intent.
Advice of someone else's counsel, however, could suggest some sort of willful ignorance. Especially when this other counsel has no ethical duty to those receiving the "advice."
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Re: The Fake Electors
I can't speak about the other states, maybe their GOP organizations popped up in a cabbage patch a month or so before the 2020 election, but the Arizona Republican Party (AGOP) has been participating in State and Federal elections in Arizona for over 100 years.bob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:05 amThis is a really interesting point.humblescribe wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:51 pmThe fact that they relied upon other people's counsel is irrelevant; they should have hired their own--maybe a couple of 'em and gotten a second opinion.
"Advice of counsel" is often a helpful defense, either directly or indirectly, because it helps show the lack of criminal intent.
Advice of someone else's counsel, however, could suggest some sort of willful ignorance. Especially when this other counsel has no ethical duty to those receiving the "advice."
They know how elections work, and they know specifically how elections work in Arizona. Since they have controlled the legislature for most of those 100 years plus of statehood and participation, they have actually WRITTEN the election laws in Arizona.
The AGOP have lawyers that know how elections work - I guarantee you that. The AGOP have over 100 years of experience in organizing electors according to the Constitutional provisions and Federal Election procedures. Relying on some outsider, who has zero experience of elections in Arizona or the election processing procedures, is not 'wilful ignorance', it is 'malfeasance in public office', a violation of their oath of office, and attempted fraud on the People of Arizona.
There is no wiggle room here for a claim of 'ignorance', whether 'wilful' or not. None. Zip. Nil. Zilch. Bupkis. Nada.
EDIT: I touched up the text a couple times to clarify what I was trying to say.
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Re: The Fake Electors
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/1 ... s-00046175
A little-known Donald Trump campaign operative delivered lists of false electors to Capitol Hill in a bid to get them to Vice President Mike Pence on Jan. 6, 2021, according to two people familiar with the episode.
Mike Roman, then Trump’s 2020 director of Election Day operations, delivered those false elector certificates — signed by pro-Trump activists in Michigan and Wisconsin — to Rep. Mike Kelly’s (R-Pa.) chief of staff at the time, both people told POLITICO. Kelly was a Trump ally in the effort to overturn the 2020 election, and his then-top aide received the documents from Roman before deputizing a colleague to disseminate copies on Capitol Hill, according to both people.
Roman’s role in the effort to deliver those slates of electors directly to Pence has not previously been reported. The onetime Trump White House researcher and former aide to the conservative Koch network, who was subpoenaed in February by the Jan. 6 select committee, did not respond to multiple requests for comment for this story.
The origin of the false elector lists, which never got to Pence before he presided over certification of Joe Biden’s victory on Jan. 6, has become an enduring subplot in the select panel’s investigation of the Capitol attack designed to disrupt that day. After the committee revealed the role of a top aide to Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) in the episode during a hearing last month, Johnson said the false elector lists came from Kelly — who has repeatedly denied any involvement by his office in their distribution.
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Re: The Fake Electors
“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
Re: The Fake Electors
Pro tip: Don't admit to criming in an email. Even (especially!) if you are a lawyer.
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Re: The Fake Electors
‘Kind of Wild/Creative’: Emails Shed Light on Trump Fake Electors Plan
Previously undisclosed communications among Trump campaign aides and outside advisers provide new insight into their efforts to overturn the election in the weeks leading to Jan. 6.
By Maggie Haberman and Luke Broadwater
July 26, 2022 Updated 2:15 p.m. ET
Previously undisclosed emails provide an inside look at the increasingly desperate and often slapdash efforts by advisers to President Donald J. Trump to reverse his election defeat in the weeks before the Jan. 6 attack, including acknowledgments that a key element of their plan was of dubious legality and lived up to its billing as “fake.”
The dozens of emails among people connected to the Trump campaign, outside advisers and close associates of Mr. Trump show a particular focus on assembling lists of people who would claim — with no basis — to be Electoral College electors on his behalf in battleground states that he had lost.
In emails reviewed by The New York Times and authenticated by people who had worked with the Trump campaign at the time, one lawyer involved in the detailed discussions repeatedly used the word “fake” to refer to the so-called electors, who were intended to provide Vice President Mike Pence and Mr. Trump’s allies in Congress a rationale for derailing the congressional process of certifying the outcome. And lawyers working on the proposal made clear they knew that the pro-Trump electors they were putting forward might not hold up to legal scrutiny.
“We would just be sending in ‘fake’ electoral votes to Pence so that ‘someone’ in Congress can make an objection when they start counting votes, and start arguing that the ‘fake’ votes should be counted,” Jack Wilenchik, a Phoenix-based lawyer who helped organize the pro-Trump electors in Arizona, wrote in a Dec. 8, 2020, email to Boris Epshteyn, a strategic adviser for the Trump campaign.
In a follow-up email, Mr. Wilenchik wrote that “‘alternative’ votes is probably a better term than ‘fake’ votes,” adding a smiley face emoji.
The emails provide new details of how a wing of the Trump campaign worked with outside lawyers and advisers to organize the elector plan and pursue a range of other options, often with little thought to their practicality. One email showed that many of Mr. Trump’s top advisers were informed of problems naming Trump electors in Michigan — a state he had lost — because pandemic rules had closed the state Capitol building where the so-called electors had to gather.