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Let’s Go Solar!

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Maybenaut
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Let’s Go Solar!

#1

Post by Maybenaut »

RTH10260 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:41 am Cannot find a solar power thread, so here it goes

Over on the Hijack thread RTH noted the lack of a solar thread, so I figured I would start one. The Two Bit DaVinci video description of solar options is worth the 20-minute view if you don’t know about solar.

We have solar here at Maybelot. It went on line on 6 December, so it hasn’t been a full month yet. We have 45 panels, with 19.3 kWp peak generating capacity (that’s the limit our electric cooperative - our electric company, or the co-op) allows a private generator to feed to the grid. We have two Solar Edge inverters.

Here’s how it works: Our system generates DC current. The inverters convert it to AC, and send it to the panel. Our house uses what it uses, and any excess goes to the co-op. When our house uses more power than we’re generating, we draw from the co-op. The meter measures what the co-op delivers to us, what it has received from us, and the net difference. This month, we’ll pay because the co-op delivered more than we used. As the days get longer and sunnier (and we make our house more energy efficient by adding things like insulation - I swear, I don’t know how the previous owners didn’t freeze to death), the system will make more power, and we’ll eventually make more than we use in a month.

When that happens, the excess power will be carried over in the form of credit which, for our co-op at least, always accrues and never expires (some electric companies reset at the end of each year, and may or may not pay you for the excess, and if they do pay, they may or may not pay you the same rate you would have paid them). Eventually we should have enough credit built up from the summer months to carry us through the winter.

Then there is “renewable energy credit.” REC is your system’s generating capacity. The capacity is a commodity that can be sold on the open market. Electric power companies and co-ops are required to certify to the government that a certain percentage of the power they deliver comes from green sources. Some companies allow the individual customer to elect green power, although they charge more for it (which, considering that they’re basically getting it for free is kind of a rip-off, IMO, although it does incentivize the production of green power). Anyhoo, our little generator, and the thousands of others like it, when combined together, are a significant enough source of green power to make companies with reporting requirements want to call dibs on it. They bid for the right to claim our power, and working that process is one of the services our installer provides. They’ll skim a little off the top and we’ll get a check (not a ton of money - $500 to $1K maybe?). It’ll help to offset the cost.

This system cost $50K. Twent-six percent of that - $13K - will be deducted from our federal taxes, so the net cost is really $37K. We anticipate about a 10-12 year payback.
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"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#2

Post by Phoenix520 »

It’s a thing of beauty, even if it wasn’t helping with the greening America.

They probably grew up with my dad ( and husband :roll: )
“Cold? Moar sweaters! Jumping jacks! Moar socks!”

ETA Where is the pic taken from? Drone?
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#3

Post by bob »

There have been various articles written about how, with enough small-time solar providers, there often is an excess of energy during the day. That is, more power on the grid than demanded.

So the proposed solution is to use this excess energy to power pumps to send water upstream to a dammed area. Then, at night when there's more power needed than provided (because there's no solar power at night), release the water and generate energy from turbines. Rinse and repeat during the next day, etc.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#4

Post by pipistrelle »

This is awful. You’ll use up the sun. :fingerwag: :o
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Maybenaut
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#5

Post by Maybenaut »

Phoenix520 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:31 pm It’s a thing of beauty, even if it wasn’t helping with the greening America.

They probably grew up with my dad ( and husband :roll: )
“Cold? Moar sweaters! Jumping jacks! Moar socks!”

ETA Where is the pic taken from? Drone?
Yes, drone. The installer is required to send a photo of the entire system, in one picture, before the co-op would allow them to enter it on. The only way they could do that is with a drone.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#6

Post by Maybenaut »

bob wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:07 pm There have been various articles written about how, with enough small-time solar providers, there often is an excess of energy during the day. That is, more power on the grid than demanded.

So the proposed solution is to use this excess energy to power pumps to send water upstream to a dammed area. Then, at night when there's more power needed than provided (because there's no solar power at night), release the water and generate energy from turbines. Rinse and repeat during the next day, etc.
Yes. Over-generation during the daylight hours is a problem for the power companies. They can’t really store it. Right now we get charged the same regardless of the time rather than paying more for peak time. If they start charging more for peak time, we might install a battery wall that we can use for peak hours, but still have to run the numbers. Right now our system *should* generate more in a year than we use, but we’re thinking of getting a second EV, so it might not after that.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#7

Post by filly »

It looks great! I love the concept. Stupid question: what happens when you need a new roof? Do they overlay the solar panels on existing shingles? I'm busy getting entry doors replaced so I'm thinking about this stuff.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#8

Post by keith »

filly wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:25 pm It looks great! I love the concept. Stupid question: what happens when you need a new roof? Do they overlay the solar panels on existing shingles? I'm busy getting entry doors replaced so I'm thinking about this stuff.
They take them down and put them back up after. I dont know what this does to the warrantee, or the feed in fee structure.

In Oz, early adopters are paid a huge feed in fee forever, until something changes with the original system, like new owner or more panels or battery added (or new roof?). We are not early adopters and our feed in fee has been lowered each year. Started at .22/kw but is now at .06/kw. Still worth it.

I am thinking about a new roof, but I might sell before that becomes necessary so its something the next guy has to worry about. I suppose the next owner might be driving a bulldozer the first time he comes through the front door because the neighborhood is being converted to multiple units.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#9

Post by Maybenaut »

The roof is only two years old, so it will likely be the next owner’s problem.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#10

Post by filly »

Maybenaut wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:21 pm The roof is only two years old, so it will likely be the next owner’s problem.
Well that’s good for you but building a new house isn’t in my plans!
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#11

Post by Foggy »

Here we have some sort of program to promote solar, and if you qualify, they subsidize you heavily. We had a guy come over to the house and met with ol' Wifehorn for an hour or so.

Our roof line is fundamentally north/south. We have no south-facing slope. They measured and photographed and they were never seen again, poof! :shock:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#12

Post by keith »

Foggy wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:39 pm Here we have some sort of program to promote solar, and if you qualify, they subsidize you heavily. We had a guy come over to the house and met with ol' Wifehorn for an hour or so.

Our roof line is fundamentally north/south. We have no south-facing slope. They measured and photographed and they were never seen again, poof! :shock:
Our house is the same - roof line runs north south.

That's OK - you can get good results with west and east facing panels. West facing is 2nd choice to north facing (for us - south facing for you).

We have a bank of 4 on the 2nd floor east facing slope; two banks of 4 on the 2nd floor west and a bank of 4 on the 1st floor west.

This works just fine, but of course generation changes with the height of the sun due to seasons. Our panels pay for heating the house in the Melbourne winter, but not a whole lot more, but in the summer we only use about a half of what we generate. I am working on cutting down on overnight imports for TV/Stereo/Computer standby usage (its amazing how much standby uses up) - then I'll just be looking at the refrigerator running over night (and phone/tablet chargers, I guess. And the occasional bedroom ceiling fan). I'd like a battery, but I just don't think they are value for money at the moment.

Also remember, you don't necessarily need a cloudless day get generation - solar panels work on UV, so while there is certainly more UV without clouds, overcast days can still generate because there is some UV getting through.

There is a GREAT Australian site for researching out all the ins and outs - you will have to adjust for northern and southern hemisphere and local supply of course. This guy organizes reputable installers to contact you and get quotes, but you don't have to be in Australia (I hope) or use his service to read his excellent guides. Looks like he has expanded them since I read through it (nothing else to do during lockdown I guess?) so I might have to browse them as well. Solar Quotes: Solar 101 Guides. He also does reviews of equipment available in Aussieland, much of which is probably available in the USA as well, though I don't know how the warrantees would translate across.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#13

Post by keith »

Here's an extract from Part 2 of the guide I linked above (you'll need to swap North and South in the text for the northern hemisphere of course):

(By the way, the author, Finn Peacock is a Chartered Electrical Engineer who used to work for CSIRO - sorta/kinda Australia's equivalent to NASA but without much to do with space. FYI CSIRO invented WiFi but I don't think Finn had anything to do with that).
#3 The basics of roof direction/angle for optimal solar electricity generation.
Panel Direction

First – the absolute basics. The sun rises in the east, and sets in the west.

This means:

East-facing panels will generate more power in the morning.
West-facing panels will generate more in the late afternoon.
North-facing solar panels will generate the most energy overall, but less in the morning and late afternoon compared to east and west-facing panels respectively.

East and west-facing panels will produce about 15% less energy per year compared to north facing.

But – a working household can self-consume more solar energy with east and west-facing panels, because they produce more energy before and after school/work, accelerating their system’s payback compared to a north-facing one.

Sadly, I’ve spoken to more than one homeowner with a massive east or west roof ripe for harvesting solar energy who thinks it just isn’t worth it if their panels can’t face north.

It used to be true if you couldn’t install panels on a north-facing roof, then a solar power system wasn’t worth it.

Now that prices of solar power systems have dropped so much, you can get a fantastic return on investment from east or west-facing panels, or a combination of north, east and west.

Hell, despite what many well-meaning installers may claim, you can even get a good return with south-facing solar panels!

I am about to install panels on my south-facing roof because I have a battery and two electric cars, and need as much generation as possible to recharge them.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#14

Post by Foggy »

Yes, but as I said, a professional solar installation company came and did a fairly thorough inspection of our home, and at the end they simply disappeared to find someone who might benefit more from solar panels. I think part of it was, our back yard has some tall trees, so the house only gets sunlight for the morning and a little bit of the afternoon. By mid-afternoon, the sun is behind the trees. And we're not taking down the trees to get more sunlight on the house.

Oh well.
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#15

Post by Maybenaut »

It’s not for everyone. We have it at our house which sits on the side of a mountain with zero trees. We don’t have it at our cabin, which is surrounded by woods.

Our house faces mostly east, angled a bit to the south. So not perfect, but good enough, and our roof is large enough to make up for not facing due south.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#16

Post by Slim Cognito »

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/03/08/ ... n-florida/

Fucking DeSantis and the whole fucking lege can go to hell.

They just passed a bill that gives our excess solar energy back to the power companies at a tiny fraction of its worth (they used to reimburse us at the retail cost). It also lets the power companies charge solar customers extra monthly fees. Right now I pay them $22 a month for meter rental.

There is huge bipartisan support AGAINST this bill. They tried to pass it a few years ago in a voter referendum (calling it by the cutesy name Sunshine Bill) it lost yuuuugely so this time they just took it straight to the crooks.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#17

Post by raison de arizona »

My favorite thing about ours is the little app that shows you how much energy you are generating and using.
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The curved line is yesterday, today falls short because a bunch of clouds rolled in during the afternoon. Anyway, I get a kick out of it.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#18

Post by John Thomas8 »

Slim Cognito wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:00 pm https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/03/08/ ... n-florida/

Fucking DeSantis and the whole fucking lege can go to hell.

They just passed a bill that gives our excess solar energy back to the power companies at a tiny fraction of its worth (they used to reimburse us at the retail cost). It also lets the power companies charge solar customers extra monthly fees. Right now I pay them $22 a month for meter rental.

There is huge bipartisan support AGAINST this bill. They tried to pass it a few years ago in a voter referendum (calling it by the cutesy name Sunshine Bill) it lost yuuuugely so this time they just took it straight to the crooks.
While it (desantis) might be morally bankrupt, it's still a corporate whore at heart.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#19

Post by Lani »

We turned our electric company into a co-op about 12 years ago and have been increasing alternative power. Last year, power generation included 45% solar, 14% hydro and 11% biomass.

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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#20

Post by Slim Cognito »

I should have updated sooner but DeSantis did veto the solar ratfuckery bill. He was originally all for it, but somebody must have done some polling and found out that some Republicans, especially in Florida, are worried about the environment, ponied up for solar panels, and were very unhappy at the thought of their own solar energy being stolen from them by government decree.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#21

Post by pipistrelle »

Slim Cognito wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:09 am I should have updated sooner but DeSantis did veto the solar ratfuckery bill. He was originally all for it, but somebody must have done some polling and found out that some Republicans, especially in Florida, are worried about the environment, ponied up for solar panels, and were very unhappy at the thought of their own solar energy being stolen from them by government decree.
Environment is what drove a Republican friend to the Democratic dark side. tfg sealed it. He wants to be a Republican because it’s in his DNA (sort of) but can’t as long as there’s crazy.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#22

Post by Slim Cognito »

Just had a salesman knock on my door (9:30 Sunday a.m.) which left me scrambling for jeans. I told him we already had solar (Mosaic) but I noticed his polo shirt was embroidered with the logo Blue Energy.

I like the name but wonder if it will turn off (some) Rs. Oh screw it. If the name bothers them, they weren't going solar anyway.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#23

Post by Maybenaut »

We have solar power here in Maybelot. We have an app that measures what we’re producing, but until recently couldn’t see our consumption in real time, other than looking at the meter to see if it was turning forward or backward. We installed a device in our electrical panel that measures the input from the solar energy system, as well as consumption. That information is then monitored and using some sort of signature, assigns names to devices in use (don’t ask me how any of this works — it’s not always right when it names things, so we just ignore that).

The important information is the comparison between what we’re producing and what we’re consuming. It’s pouring rain right now, and we’re still producing way more than we’re using.

The big yellow circle is the solar.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#24

Post by W. Kevin Vicklund »

I've been thinking of going solar for a while. We have an east-west roofline, with one dormer jutting south, a two-car garage with a north-south roofline jutting south, and a third-car garage with a east-west roofline (the north side is the part shaded by the house) - the garages have single-story roofs, while the house is two-story. To the east, we have a large copse of tall trees, and to the south west a handful of maples. The whole house is shaded at sunrise, and the last bit of shade is just now easing off the main roof at about 11 am (current local noon is 1:38 pm, for reference). Any east-facing panels would be shaded during the entire time they would normally be of benefit. The large expanse of south-facing roofs west of the dormer are unshaded from about 9 until sunset during the summer, although the third-car garage gets shaded in late-fall thru early spring. The west-facing roof of the garage is viable for peaking during summer months, and you could fit a few panels on the dormer as well.
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Re: Let’s Go Solar!

#25

Post by Maybenaut »

We got several bids. They all used the same software to figure out how much power we could produce based on the conditions. And we’re right in line with the estimate. The co-op put a limit on the size of our system based on our estimated usage, but if our usage goes up we can apply to make the system larger and we have more roof space if we need it.
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