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Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

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Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#1

Post by Foggy »

I invite you to read this article in Wonkette:

Were Trump's Own Generals Afraid He'd Use Their Troops To Attack Congress?

So some people in the Dept. of Defense were afraid that if there were troops anywhere near the Capitol on January 6, Trump would order them to arrest or disband the Congress, not protect them from a mob. They didn't know the mob was going to be so violent, but they knew that Trump would do anything to stay in power.

There may be a reason why the insurrection was allowed to continue for hours after it began ...
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#2

Post by Foggy »

As y'all know, I'm from a military fambly. My dad and paternal grandfather went to the US Naval Academy and had long and successful careers in the Navy. On my mother's side, my uncle and grandfather served in the US Army before becoming successful attorneys. So I still have some military embedded in my bones, though I never served.

And I would like to think that American soldiers would never obey an order by the President to arrest or disband the Congress based on ludicrously false assertions of election fraud. I know my father would never obey such an order. I know John Thomas8 and OptimusPrime would never obey such an order. I'd like to hope that our military would do the right thing.

Having said that, I'm glad that wasn't put to the test. I'm glad that lower ranks never had to decide, fuck no I'm not doing that. Our democracy is hanging by a thread, and that might have put another gaping hole in the canoe.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#3

Post by Slim Cognito »

I'll read the Just Security article later but I did read the unwonkettish, yet appropriately serious, wonkette article probably ever written.

And, Wow...just Wow.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#4

Post by AndyinPA »

I didn't read the article yet, but I know there's concern about the level of nationalism, not patriotism, in the military today. And I think about ten percent of the people so far charged for the insurrection had military experience or were active military. :(
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#5

Post by pipistrelle »

AndyinPA wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:29 am I didn't read the article yet, but I know there's concern about the level of nationalism, not patriotism, in the military today. And I think about ten percent of the people so far charged for the insurrection had military experience or were active military. :(
81 (12%) have military experience (73 Veterans, 2 National Guard, 4 Reserve, 1 Active Duty, 1 Attending Basic Training)

Per George Washington University.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#6

Post by AndyinPA »

pipistrelle wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:37 am
AndyinPA wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:29 am I didn't read the article yet, but I know there's concern about the level of nationalism, not patriotism, in the military today. And I think about ten percent of the people so far charged for the insurrection had military experience or were active military. :(
81 (12%) have military experience (73 Veterans, 2 National Guard, 4 Reserve, 1 Active Duty, 1 Attending Basic Training)

Per George Washington University.
Thank you.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#7

Post by Maybenaut »

Foggy wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:29 am As y'all know, I'm from a military fambly. My dad and paternal grandfather went to the US Naval Academy and had long and successful careers in the Navy. On my mother's side, my uncle and grandfather served in the US Army before becoming successful attorneys. So I still have some military embedded in my bones, though I never served.

And I would like to think that American soldiers would never obey an order by the President to arrest or disband the Congress based on ludicrously false assertions of election fraud. I know my father would never obey such an order. I know John Thomas8 and OptimusPrime would never obey such an order. I'd like to hope that our military would do the right thing.

Having said that, I'm glad that wasn't put to the test. I'm glad that lower ranks never had to decide, fuck no I'm not doing that. Our democracy is hanging by a thread, and that might have put another gaping hole in the canoe.
I’d like to think I wouldn’t, but I’m not sure it’s true, and it would depend on the circumstances. If I’m a battalion commander and I’m ordered by higher headquarters to enter the capitol and stop the certification of the election, I’d probably recognize that as an unlawful order.

On the other hand, if I’m an E-2 and my Sergeant is telling me something like, “This guy right here is one of those domestic enemies you swore an oath to defend the Constitution against so you need to hold him here at gunpoint,” I don’t know that I would recognize that order as unlawful. If the Sergeant ordered me to kill him, though, I probably would recognize that as unlawful.

Another related thing about that is this: I’m not 100% confident that in a situation as volatile as this one that the chain of command wouldn’t have broken down. This wouldn’t have been some peacekeeping mission where the military was exercising control of the civilian population of some foreign country. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if many military members thought the election was stolen from their candidate, and felt obligated to act accordingly.

Reasonable minds can differ, but I think Miller made the right call. That’s not to say that the Justice Department and DHS shouldn’t have swarmed the Capitol with law enforcement.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#8

Post by Foggy »

I apologize SO MUCH for forgetting your service, Maybenaut. I was thinking "Who are the vets here?" but I think of you as maybe 85% lawyer and 15% military, even though I know, I know, all your cases are still military appeals. But your explanation of the law is your shining strength, and that avatar isn't in uniform.

I have no excuse. I apologize. I'm so dumb sometimes. Foogie can't get anythign striagth. :oopsy: :oopsy: :oopsy: :bag: :bag:
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#9

Post by Maybenaut »

Foggy wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:18 pm I apologize SO MUCH for forgetting your service, Maybenaut. I was thinking "Who are the vets here?" but I think of you as maybe 85% lawyer and 15% military, even though I know, I know, all your cases are still military appeals. But your explanation of the law is your shining strength, and that avatar isn't in uniform.

I have no excuse. I apologize. I'm so dumb sometimes. Foogie can't get anythign striagth. :oopsy: :oopsy: :oopsy: :bag: :bag:
Oh, no worries! There’s also zekeb, gregg, and sterngard and on Old’bow reeeko and GnarlyGoat and probably others whom I have forgotten. But I didn’t feel slighted or nuthin’ cause I’m a grownup and don’t take stuff like that personally! I appreciate all you do to keep this board alive!
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#10

Post by bill_g »

I wasn't slighted, but I also fixed oscilloscopes to keep you free. I wouldn't be faced with the dilemma to aim a screwdriver at a congress critter. My soldering iron can only reach as far as the cord. But damn if I don't have a pocketful of electrical tape.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#11

Post by John Thomas8 »

As a former enlisted troop, I don't think that the rank and file as a whole would participate in a police action against Americans. Yes, there would be morons, there are in all situations. But they are easily handled, even platoon sergeants, by training and discipline.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#12

Post by Foggy »

Yeah, I apologize to all the vets that slipped my excuse for a mind, but I did wonder for all these months since the insurrection, why were the troops so late? Or other cops, there are probably a couple dozen police agencies in our nation's capital. As we learned during the madness of the birther movement, even the Supreme Court had its own police department.

And I thought maybe some folks at the Pentagon might have actually interfered with sending reinforcements to the Capitol Police, in order to support Trump and allow a violent overthrow of the US Congress. Which wouldn't be treason under the Constitution, but it would be about as fucking bad as fucking bad gets, and if it had led to the deaths of Pence or any members of Congress?

Jeazess H. Kreist. :shock:

But with a very few political appointees running Defense, I could see it maybe happening, at least the orders being given, and I have been wondering how the hell it could have happened. Because remember, a decision to hold back the troops was effectively a decision to support the mob. It was a decision that - intentionally or not - supported the attempted overthrow of the United States government, a coup, on behalf of a fucking deranged criminal who had nothing but fantasies to support his claim that he won the election. And that would be a bad thing. A very, very bad thing.

But this explanation is more reasonable. It makes sense. It's ironic - the people at Defense thought Trump might try to order the troops to support a coup, so they took steps that they should maybe not have taken, and when it turned out that they needed them to protect Congress, not to arrest or disband their disreputable asses, it actually slowed the response.

This is still bad, but it's not "hold the troops back and maybe (we hope) they'll kill some Congresscritters before we get there" bad. It's less bad. I'm down with that noise.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#13

Post by realist »

John Thomas8 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:46 pm As a former enlisted troop, I don't think that the rank and file as a whole would participate in a police action against Americans. Yes, there would be morons, there are in all situations. But they are easily handled, even platoon sergeants, by training and discipline.
Two words. Kent State.

Have things changed so much since then?

I know they were NG, but still ...
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#14

Post by Flatpoint High »

Foggy wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:29 am As y'all know, I'm from a military fambly. My dad and paternal grandfather went to the US Naval Academy and had long and successful careers in the Navy. On my mother's side, my uncle and grandfather served in the US Army before becoming successful attorneys. So I still have some military embedded in my bones, though I never served.

And I would like to think that American soldiers would never obey an order by the President to arrest or disband the Congress based on ludicrously false assertions of election fraud. I know my father would never obey such an order. I know John Thomas8 and OptimusPrime would never obey such an order. I'd like to hope that our military would do the right thing.

Having said that, I'm glad that wasn't put to the test. I'm glad that lower ranks never had to decide, fuck no I'm not doing that. Our democracy is hanging by a thread, and that might have put another gaping hole in the canoe.
Remember: a lot of the troops have indoctrinated by FOX
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#15

Post by Foggy »

realist: I don't know ... I think there's a big difference between shooting a bunch of dirty hippies on a rebellious college campus and shooting members of Congress in our nation's Capitol.

But you may be right, and I hope to Hell we never have to find out.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#16

Post by AndyinPA »

Remember: a lot of the troops have indoctrinated by FOX
My understanding is that is the "news" station that plays 24 hours a day at US bases all around the world.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#17

Post by realist »

Foggy wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:32 pm realist: I don't know ... I think there's a big difference between shooting a bunch of dirty hippies on a rebellious college campus and shooting members of Congress in our nation's Capitol.

But you may be right, and I hope to Hell we never have to find out.
The difference of course is the targets, true.

"dirty hippies"? really?

You should know as well or better than most that us/those "dirty hippies" changed this country, and likely more. :daydreaming:
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#18

Post by Maybenaut »

Foggy wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:22 pm Yeah, I apologize to all the vets that slipped my excuse for a mind, but I did wonder for all these months since the insurrection, why were the troops so late? Or other cops, there are probably a couple dozen police agencies in our nation's capital. As we learned during the madness of the birther movement, even the Supreme Court had its own police department.

And I thought maybe some folks at the Pentagon might have actually interfered with sending reinforcements to the Capitol Police, in order to support Trump and allow a violent overthrow of the US Congress. Which wouldn't be treason under the Constitution, but it would be about as fucking bad as fucking bad gets, and if it had led to the deaths of Pence or any members of Congress?

Jeazess H. Kreist. :shock:

But with a very few political appointees running Defense, I could see it maybe happening, at least the orders being given, and I have been wondering how the hell it could have happened. Because remember, a decision to hold back the troops was effectively a decision to support the mob. It was a decision that - intentionally or not - supported the attempted overthrow of the United States government, a coup, on behalf of a fucking deranged criminal who had nothing but fantasies to support his claim that he won the election. And that would be a bad thing. A very, very bad thing.

But this explanation is more reasonable. It makes sense. It's ironic - the people at Defense thought Trump might try to order the troops to support a coup, so they took steps that they should maybe not have taken, and when it turned out that they needed them to protect Congress, not to arrest or disband their disreputable asses, it actually slowed the response.

This is still bad, but it's not "hold the troops back and maybe (we hope) they'll kill some Congresscritters before we get there" bad. It's less bad. I'm down with that noise.
I guess this is where I disagree. The United Ststes military should not be viewed as a police force, particularly where, as you noted, there are a shit-ton of federal law enforcement agencies within the District of Columbia whose function is law enforcement. They should have called in every officer with law enforcement authority and worried about the inter-agency jurisdictional issues later.

I think calling the military in for shit like this is a slippery slope.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#19

Post by Phoenix520 »

Shrubya and his cohort called us DFH* out of camera view.

I graduated HS 1 month after the Kent State debacle/massacre. My group wore black armbands over our gowns. At first they wouldn’t let us in to the ceremony but agreed to our wearing them under the gowns. Several switched them back before diploma time.

It was a double protest. Kent State happened because they were protesting out bombing of Cambodia. We enfolded both into the armbands.










* Dirty Fucking Hippies
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#20

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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#21

Post by northland10 »

Maybenaut wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:52 pm I guess this is where I disagree. The United Ststes military should not be viewed as a police force, particularly where, as you noted, there are a shit-ton of federal law enforcement agencies within the District of Columbia whose function is law enforcement. They should have called in every officer with law enforcement authority and worried about the inter-agency jurisdictional issues later.

I think calling the military in for shit like this is a slippery slope.
Yeah, there is a tough line here and it can go back to also consider the appropriateness of Faubus calling out the national guard to Little Rock to prevent desegregation and Ike sending some of the 101st Airborne to enforce it.

There has been good done by sending out the military, and there have been travesties by the same. If indeed the DOD leadership was slowing down the process to avoid putting the military in the potential position of having Trump change their orders from calming the riot to going after Congress, then I am glad they did that.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#22

Post by Maybenaut »

northland10 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:53 pm [
Yeah, there is a tough line here and it can go back to also consider the appropriateness of Faubus calling out the national guard to Little Rock to prevent desegregation and Ike sending some of the 101st Airborne to enforce it.

There has been good done by sending out the military, and there have been travesties by the same. If indeed the DOD leadership was slowing down the process to avoid putting the military in the potential position of having Trump change their orders from calming the riot to going after Congress, then I am glad they did that.
The fact that that was something they were even worried about scares the crap out of me. I’m relieved that they were prescient enough to consider it a possibility and act on it.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#23

Post by Foggy »

I have no doubt - zero - that if Trump thought he could have gotten away with ordering the military to keep him in office, he would have done it instantly. He knew he couldn't order a military coup, or he'd be in the White House today.

Instead, he's a grumpy deranged loser, whining about his critics and worried sick that somehow he might be going to prison. The poor bunny. :biggrin:

But if there hadn't been a mob that responded to his call to action and forced their way into the Capitol, would he have tried to order troops to arrest or disband the Congress? I doubt it, because he knew he couldn't order a military coup. But apparently some saw that as a legitimate threat. And he surely would have tried it if he thought it might work, but he knew it wouldn't.

Still, interesting new fact. While the mob was raging, someone was suddenly thinking, "Wow, maybe we need to get some people over there now, huh?" But it took time to undo the precautions.

Maybenaut is dead on, though. There are SO MANY cops in our nation's capital, and this was a police situation, not a military one. It should have been a massive police response.
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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#24

Post by MN-Skeptic »

This should help in the future -

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Re: Why the troops were late - fear of Trump ordering a coup?

#25

Post by noblepa »

Foggy wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:32 pm realist: I don't know ... I think there's a big difference between shooting a bunch of dirty hippies on a rebellious college campus and shooting members of Congress in our nation's Capitol.

But you may be right, and I hope to Hell we never have to find out.
I think that Fox and the other right-wing media, including internet sources like Alex Jones, have done a pretty good job of convincing many people that congress members, particularly Democrats and other liberals, ARE the new "dirty hippies". As such, I am not at all sure that there would not be any service members who would willingly attempt to prevent Congress from carrying out its Constitutional duty in counting the electoral votes, if they believed (as I'm sure many do) that the election had been stolen.
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