State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

[Rolodex]

Thinking maybe Kise got a lil spicy to distract from how poorly Eric did - change the headlines.

"Pouring concrete" is esp stupid - Trumporg hasn't constructed a building in years. They do branding and managing. Eric would have been more believable if he'd said cutting grass on the golf course.

[chancery]

Of course, this is all being done for a party of one (and his cult), but it in no way will further the defendants' case, or counsels' reputations in the legal community.

Sure, but there may also be a calculated strategy. Trump's lawyers have a long history with Judge Engoron. The principal claims and defenses, as well as the litigation philosophy of Trump's lawyers, were apparent early during the lengthy discovery disputes that proceeded the complaint. Engoron made it clear pretty early on that he wasn't buying the defense's arguments and found much about their conduct inappropriate. So there's no love lost, and the usual guidelines for maintaining your credibility with a judge even while strenuously challenging the court's rulings don't have as much force as they might. And the paper record is pretty damning for Trump.

I think Kise is trying to goad the judge into losing his temper to such an extent that he makes a mistake or or delivers intemperate remarks. It's a very long shot, but I'm not sure it's a completely irrational decision.

The caselaw concerning recusal and mistrials gives judges substantial leeway for getting legitimately pissed off at inappropriate conduct by lawyers. I've nonetheless seen the odd case where an appellate court concludes that, even though the blame substantially rests on defense counsel's bad conduct, a judge's irritation with counsel has reached such a level as to require that the judge be replaced, even if the problem is more the appearance of unfairness rather than rulings that were actually unfair.

So it can be done. IIRC, in the Chicago 7 trial in the 1970s, the defendants and their lawyers were able to bait the Hon. Julius Hoffman into such extremes of intemperance as to get him removed from the case by the Seventh Circuit. Now, Judge Hoffman was unusually irascible by nature, and the Chicago 7 had a rare talent for impudent provocation. Kise and Habba aren't in the same league, and I doubt it will do them any good. But they might not have much to lose by trying it.

And as far as their reputation in the legal community, that's water under the dam: everything Trump touches dies.

[Frater I*I]

There have been stories here of judges passing notes commenting on suspects' appearance, making lewd jokes, etc., but although IANAL I would assume it's normal for judges to communicate with staff. Does that make me more qualified than Kise?

(Yes, am aware of the audience of Orange.)

A head of lettuce is more qualified than him, so that would be a resounding yes...

[Foggy]

I think Kise is trying to goad the judge into losing his temper to such an extent that he makes a mistake or or delivers intemperate remarks. It's a very long shot, but I'm not sure it's a completely irrational decision.

I agree with every word of that post, but look at how weak it is.

"Well, the one chance we have left is to piss off Engoron and hope he makes a mistake that means we'll get a new judge on appeal."

"Oh boy, yeah! I bet we could do that, we can just be really annoying!"

Yeah.

Oh, boy.

Meanwhile, if they want to continue trying to goad Engoron into losing his temper, they'd better pick a different subject to dwell on instead of the biased and prejudiced Democrat law clerk who hates Trump and tells the judge to rule against Trump every time. Because if they so much as mention that young lady again in court, look out. He already warned them to shut up. Either Kise brings his mistrial motion, or he has to think of something else that will piss off Judge Engoron.

Edit: It might be fun to read a mistrial motion that cites Breitbart as a source.

[raison de arizona]

Eric Trump has been a senior executive at the Trump Organization for over a decade.

In all that time, he denies having any involvement in Donald Trump's fraudulent statements of financial condition.

The evidence shows otherwise.

[chancery]

I haven't bought into most of the japes about Chris Kise's courtroom skills. While he hasn't yet impressed me as doing anything brilliant, for the most part, and putting aside his attacks on the principal clerk, he's been doggedly playing out rotten hands. He obviously know his way around a courtroom. And trial is hard.

But then I saw this:

https://twitter.com/lawofruby/status/17 ... 9439325246

Lisa Rubin
@lawofruby
Amer then stands with a housekeeping matter, noting that the clips of deposition testimony shown yesterday were not included in the transcript. He is instead asking that they be entered into evidence as exhibits.
11:32 AM · Nov 3, 2023

Kise interrupts, asking, “Oh, so you need to make a record? How interesting.” Amer pauses, as if to calm himself. “Yes,” he replies, his voice steely. “We need to make a record.”

Amer's request was perfectly proper; you can lose a case for failure to make housekeeping motions to make sure evidence is in the record.

That comment by Kise was stupid, childish, and really unprofessional. Contrast the behavior of Joseph Tacopina at the Jean Carroll trial, who was able, seemingly effortlessly, and despite the fraught nature of the issues, to stay on cordial terms with opposing counsel and the judge; it's the mark of an experienced and extremely dangerous opponent.

So I dunno.

Edit: As I mentioned in a later post, it's possible that this was in fact an in-joke between counsel. It's not really possible to tell from the transcript.

[raison de arizona]

All I can say is that if Kise is smart, he got a fat seven figure retainer to bill against.

[Foggy]

I think sometimes we need to remember that Kise not only has an audience of one, but that one thought Justice Kavanaugh's diatribe before the Senate -- you know, where he screamed and cried and totally lost his mud -- was an excellent performance. We saw a man demonstrating for the world that he is incapable of a judicial demeanor; Trump saw a brilliant performance for television. Trump is paying the big bucks, and Trump wants Kise to act like a spoiled bratty child. So Kise is going to act like a spoiled bratty child.

[chancery]

Although, you know, it could just have been an in-joke, and accepted as such by the prosecutor. It's hard to tell without being there.

[raison de arizona]

I’m not going to quote it, because it has the clerk’s full name all over it. But here is the 72-page complaint: Actually, the website has her name on it in the freaking url. Here it is: https://tinyurl.com/ywr6vuvy Also I don’t know if the full complaint is there, it supposedly is, but I can’t get it to work on my phone.

[Volkonski]

In New York State the supreme court (the trial courts of general jurisdiction) judges are elected by district and have party endorsements. Often they are endorsed by more than one of the many NY state political parties. NY judges are not totally apolitical beings.

Court clerk positions are civil service. Courts hire from a list of applicants who pass the CS exam with top scores.

Clerks are limited to $500 a year in political contributions.

[p0rtia]

Audience of 1?

How about audience of MAGA.

This is full-on intimidation of Engoran and his staff, and anyone who is a judge or has a staff.

This is one of the kernels that has and will explode across Earth 2 and whip the mob into a frenzy for years to come. Softening the enemy before the ultimate battle.

This is happening in school board rooms, election sites, clerk's offices, and school rooms all around the country. We are at war, and this is it.

Sic 'em.

[Frater I*I]

Audience of 1?

How about audience of MAGA.

This is full-on intimidation of Engoran and his staff, and anyone who is a judge or has a staff.

This is one of the kernels that has and will explode across Earth 2 and whip the mob into a frenzy for years to come. Softening the enemy before the ultimate battle.

This is happening in school board rooms, election sites, clerk's offices, and school rooms all around the country. We are at war, and this is it.

Sic 'em.

Lesson 1 of Civil War 2.0 for these redneck hillbillies is this...

Nobody gets to be warlord of my neighborhood except me...

[RTH10260]

commenting

[Suranis]

commenting

https://youtu.be/_5t1E7J6np4

For the people who don't want to click. The mistake was standing in an elevator and saying to the phone and saying "Yes Sir. *pause* Yes we are going to knock them dead today."

I have not a doubt in my mind that he wanted her to stand in a place where she could be overheard, and say that. Possibly to intimidate everyone, probably because he knows everyone will repeat it and therefore everyone will be talking about him.

[RTH10260]

And the audience had a good laugh when they heard the soure...
https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... 1558032798

EXCLUSIVE: The source relied upon in the Breitbart story cited in court today by Trump’s lawyers to attack the judge’s clerk has a long history of pushing baseless claims and conspiracies about judges, attorneys and court personnel in other cases. Story …

meidastouch.com
Trump's Lawyers Relied On Breitbart Source Who Accused Judge Engoron of Drinking on the Job
In 2020, a court ruled that this source created websites and videos in "a bad faith effort to harass and intimidate defendants, their counsel, and the court"

10:33 PM · Nov 3, 2023

► Show Spoiler

[RTH10260]

re above tweet

Trump's Lawyers Relying On Breitbart Source Who Accused Judge Engoron of Drinking on the Job
In 2020, a court ruled that this source created websites and videos in "a bad faith effort to harass and intimidate defendants, their counsel, and the court"

J.D. Wolf
21 hours ago

In court today, Trump lawyer Christopher Kise cited a Breitbart article accusing Judge Engoron's law clerk of being politically biased. When Kise admitted his article came from Breitbart, some in the courtroom laughed. See our reporting on this below.

An examination of the article that Trump's lawyers are relying on uses a source named Brock Fredin, who is behind the "Judicial Protest" account on Twitter. This is the same account that authored the tweet that Trump was ordered to delete off Truth Social.



https://www.meidastouch.com/news/trumps ... on-the-job

[bob]

The article recounts fairly specific details, e.g., the shipping clerk gave X political committee Y dollars on Z date.

Presumably these details came from publicly filed documents. Documents that could be independently verified.

But even if the shipping clerk violated ethical rules, those violations are unrelated to the trial.

It would be a waste of time and money to file an actual motion based on these claims. But the perpetually aggreived machine would be fed.

[raison de arizona]

Whole big thread at the link with the blow by blow preceding this snippet.

If you’ve read this far, you’re probably bored. But not all important testimony comes with fireworks. I cannot overstate how damaging these admissions are for Trump Jr., as pleasant and relatively yawn-inducing as this review of financial documents sounds.

Trump, for example, is now confirming that he signed a representation letter to the Organization’s post-Mazars accountants that assures them that the Org did not withhold any material information, provided accurate data, etc.

Not only does the AG take issue with the veracity of those representations, but the fact that Trump Jr. signed it, after this investigation is underway, without having more than a cursory discussion with the same accountants to whom the representations were made is stunning.

We just saw perhaps the first glimpse of daylight between the Trump brothers. Trump was asked about a certification he signed to Cushman & Wakefield about Trump Briarcliff Manor, but noted it was “my brother’s project.”

https://x.com/lawofruby/status/1720090727986892843?s=20

[Suranis]

So the Trump Brothers are aiming Busses in each others direction as well. How unsurprising.

[RTH10260]

When riding an escalator without preparing the family for the great adventour ...

Then of course the Don knows everyting better than anyone else ...

[p0rtia]

All I can say is that if Kise is smart, he got a fat seven figure retainer to bill against.

Sarcasm? In which case, bravo! Or you missed it that Kise is the one who got the 3 million buck retainer early in the year. In which case, you nailed it, as usual.

[Maybenaut]

All I can say is that if Kise is smart, he got a fat seven figure retainer to bill against.

Sarcasm? In which case, bravo! Or you missed it that Kise is the one who got the 3 million buck retainer early in the year. In which case, you nailed it, as usual.

I thought the $3M retainer was for the documents case in Florida, but I could be misremembering.

[p0rtia]

All I can say is that if Kise is smart, he got a fat seven figure retainer to bill against.

Sarcasm? In which case, bravo! Or you missed it that Kise is the one who got the 3 million buck retainer early in the year. In which case, you nailed it, as usual.

I thought the $3M retainer was for the documents case in Florida, but I could be misremembering.

I had no idea, but a quick google turns up this;

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/1 ... k-00056968

Trump’s Save America paid $3 million to cover top lawyer’s legal work

Chris Kise is repping the ex-president in the Mar-a-Lago investigation and the DOJ Jan. 6 probe. And it’s costing Trump’s key fundraising arm.

[northland10]

I forgot to toss out idle speculation about Ivanka not filing an affidavit stating she has to stay home to take care of the kids, so...

I do wonder if the lack of the affidavit from her is a sign that she was not all in with the motion and it was done at whining of a toddler that is not one of her children. If it were true, that might be a naughty thing.

I learn well from birthers.

Absence of evidence is evidence and "I'm just asking questions."