Fogbow

AndyinPA wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:03 am https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ovid-cases

The Republican governor of Alabama has said it is “time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks” for rising cases of Covid-19, amid concern that months of misinformation over the need and efficacy of vaccines is fueling a resurgence of coronavirus infections in several states.

Kay Ivey said that vaccines are “the greatest weapon we have to fight Covid” and added that a surge in new cases of the coronavirus in Alabama is due to a reluctance among many people in the state to get inoculated.

Only about a third of eligible people in Alabama have got a vaccine shot, one of the lowest rates in the US.

“Folks are supposed to have common sense,” said the Alabama governor. “But it’s time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the vaccinated folks. It’s the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down.”

Ivey added that nearly all the new hospitalizations and deaths due to Covid are unvaccinated people. “These folks are choosing a horrible lifestyle of self-inflicted pain,” she said.

The criticism of those who are eligible to be vaccinated and have chosen not to get the shot despite vaccines being available follows a concerted effort among conspiracy theorists and others on social media and conservative media outlets such as Fox News to sow baseless doubt over the safety or need for vaccinations despite a slew of evidence over their ability to shield people from the worst effects of the virus, including death.

My Mister's daughter is in Alabama. The state has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country.

The data cannot be ignored.97% of those hospitalized are unvaccinated. The vaccinated aren't dying.

I'm sick of those who refuse to vaccinate, to wear masks, etc and then whine about how their rights are being violated. Viruses don't give a fuck about politics.

The unvaccinated want life back to the old normal* without taking any responsibility for doing the basic and necessary things to speed up our recovery. They don't get it both ways.

*We're never going back to the old normal.

filly wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:39 pm There seems a logical disconnect with these folks.

Unfortunate, but between Tuskegee and the many years of institutionalized racism from various levels of the government, I could see it being very hard to get over that high level of distrust that has become culturally ingrained. Here is an example of the consequences from endemic institutional racism.

White folks who don't have the same cultural baggage swallow every conspiracy that says the vaccines are tools to kill us. If they can create that disconnect because of one guy, it is not surprising that it can happen with people of color. They have abundant reasons to distrust the government.

filly wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:39 pm So the government lied to black folks at Tuskegee over 40 years and people died as a result. As shameful chapter in American history. But now the government is offering life saving vaccines, and because the government failed to treat black folks in the Tuskegee experiment, people will die.

There seems a logical disconnect with these folks. Whatever the cause is, not getting vaccinated will lead to unnecessary deaths. People may be educated but that doesn't necessarily make them logical thinkers.

There is nothing illogical about refusing to trust the government because the government has been demonstrably untrustworthy. Logic is a poor tool for vetting information these days - cognitive bias, motivated reasoning, and trust in authority will always allow everyone to develop a logical argument to support the conclusion they already favor. The only way that we can possibly correct errors in our knowledge (and we all have errors in our knowledge) is by allowing for the possibility that we are wrong and seeking out the evidence that would prove it - which is to say, by science.

Most Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are acting in a manner that is internally logical and rational - they have reasons based on their own knowledge - they just don't consider what sort of evidence would prove them wrong, let alone seek it out. The beginning of wisdom is knowing that you know nothing. The beginning of science is admitting what evidence would prove it.

The story Lani related is a great example. There is no logical or rational argument that will change an anti-vaxxer's mind. The only way to do it is to demonstrate your respect for their right to their position even though they disagree. If your actions demonstrate your sincerity then they may make the decision to consider the possibility that they are wrong and ask for your help (or simply change their mind on their own), but there isn't any way to force them to that place.

^Sincerity killed the cat. And science shows us vaccines work. So I dismiss your argument completely.

Sorry Slarti, I reject that thesis. The only thing that will convince these refuseniks to get vaccinated is fear. If that fear is from seeing people around them dying, then that's what it's going to take.

Similarly, I get the stuff about institutional racism. But I can think of many examples of black people who understand institutional racism and got vaccinated and are trying to convince other black people to get vaccinated, both in the nation and my personal life.

filly wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:51 pm Sorry Slarti, I reject that thesis. The only thing that will convince these refuseniks to get vaccinated is fear. If that fear is from seeing people around them dying, then that's what it's going to take.

Similarly, I get the stuff about institutional racism. But I can think of many examples of black people who understand institutional racism and got vaccinated and are trying to convince other black people to get vaccinated, both in the nation and my personal life.

It might be different because we are so close to Tuskegee, but it's not just a chapter in a book to people down here. It's something that actually happened to their families, and not generations removed either. 3 women in my quilt group have relatives (uncle, father and brother) who were involved in it. 2 of the women are nurses and had serious doubts about taking the vaccine and did tons of research before even considering it. They eventually got it but not without some deep soul searching. One had other issues that make her medically ineligible so she never had to make the decision, but she also had doubts for her family members. The government told them for years they were being treated but they actually did nothing but follow the progress of their disease, even when the study was no longer even being funded. It makes perfect sense to me that there would be a great deal of vaccine hesitancy with that particular group. As a matter of fact, I would probably be more surprised if there wasn't.

Next November only marks 50 years of the end of the "experiment." People's memories are longer than that.

Slarti, I see where you're coming from, when you say:

There is no logical or rational argument that will change an anti-vaxxer's mind. The only way to do it is to demonstrate your respect for their right to their position even though they disagree. If your actions demonstrate your sincerity then they may make the decision to consider the possibility that they are wrong and ask for your help (or simply change their mind on their own), but there isn't any way to force them to that place.

That was always true with birthers, back in the day. And there are a scary number of people who are birthers, anti-vaxxers, who think Trump won, who are Q-anons, and so forth. They can't be persuaded by negative publicity or even severe criticism. They think what they think, and they WILL NOT listen to rational criticism or questioning of their beliefs.

Didn't we find a study, years ago, about how if you confront them with ironclad, irrefutable evidence that contradicts their belief, they believe their false beliefs even more strongly?

And that's the problem with vaccination - all these tens of millions of people seriously think there's something wrong with the vaccine and they won't take it. And the more you try to coerce them, the more sure they will be that you're trying to kill them.

I don't even think they can understand it if "your actions demonstrate your sincerity". They think what they think, and they're not going to give a crap if your actions convey sincerity. Their sincerity outweighs yours. In other words, I think maybe you're being a bit optimistic.

One Saturday night, Michael Che made a comment he was considering getting the shot. Since he was kinda famous, he might get the real one.

I'm a bit surprised by some of the posts. Tuskegee is not a single trigger; it represents a long history of using Blacks as lab rats, including other medications and surgery without consent, including sterilizing and other unnecessary procedures, and often without anesthesia and pain control.

That heritage continues:

A 2016 survey found that about half of white medical students and residents in the sample endorsed false beliefs about biological differences between black and white patients. For example, 25 percent of medical residents agreed that blacks have thicker skin than whites. Strikingly, “participants who endorsed more false beliefs about biological differences between blacks and whites showed a racial bias in the accuracy of their treatment recommendations.” These disparities remain particularly stark in obstetrics and gynecology. Today, black women are three to four times as likely to die from pregnancy-related causes than white women.

The persistence of racist medical beliefs, and their association with ongoing racial disparities in treatment and patient outcomes, represents a major challenge for 21st-century American medicine.

Much more here and many other websites: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mad ... nts-today/

So yeah, there is fear and anxiety. Yelling at people with anxiety doesn't help. Peer outreach may be slow, but it helps. Blacks are more likely to receive the vaccine than GQPers.

FFS!!!

I know there are selfish stupid evil idiots everywhere

Here we have a few thousand on display

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2021-07- ... /100320620

Possibly because we are such a safe country natural selection hasn’t weeded these out...

Now more people will get sick, more die and more will be harmed because of these waste of oxygen types.

I’m thinking water cannon them all with fluro pink dye then arrest them all...

The dye so that everyone know who these dangerous people are and so they can be avoided until arrested.

Well, that cheered me a little. The US isn't the only crazee town. USA USA USA But then I thought about relatives and became very sad. Oh, well, they can't tease me any more about the US vax problems.

I looked at Oz's vaccination campaign, and it seems that 29% of Australia's population has received at least one vaccine dose and only 11+% percent are fully vaccinated. With such low rates, more new variants will proliferate.

Does Oz have crazy politicians like ours who tell people not to get vaccinated?

Dave from down under wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 pm FFS!!!

I know there are selfish stupid evil idiots everywhere

Here we have a few thousand on display

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2021-07- ... /100320620

Possibly because we are such a safe country natural selection hasn’t weeded these out...

Now more people will get sick, more die and more will be harmed because of these waste of oxygen types.

I’m thinking water cannon them all with fluro pink dye then arrest them all...

The dye so that everyone know who these dangerous people are and so they can be avoided until arrested.

Nutz everywhere. Do you know the status of Nick Patterson case? I confess that I haven't tried to look it up.

Great thread, they go on for a half dozen or so tweets addressing each point.

Lani wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:18 am Well, that cheered me a little. The US isn't the only crazee town. USA USA USA But then I thought about relatives and became very sad. Oh, well, they can't tease me any more about the US vax problems.

I looked at Oz's vaccination campaign, and it seems that 29% of Australia's population has received at least one vaccine dose and only 11+% percent are fully vaccinated. With such low rates, more new variants will proliferate.

Does Oz have crazy politicians like ours who tell people not to get vaccinated?

A few nuts in parliament

But a bit of a stuff up in the roll out
(Morrison is better at advertising than administration)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-06/ ... /100051676

A lack of urgency as containment was mostly working

Bad vibes about Astra and so a desire to wait for Alternatives (see lack of urgency)

Now delta

And selfish dangerous uncaring criminal idiots

I’ve booked in for my 1st shot in a week or so (regional low risk area)both of my brothers have had their 2nd shot as they are in Sydney and we’re higher risk.



57 bastards arrest so far, I hope they get them all
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2021-07- ... /100320620

Not sure about Patterson

8 June hearing of nick patterson Melbourne Magistrates Court

Probably bailed for a later date - usually takes 3-9 months to be heard.

There's a long takedown of the Frontline Doctors action in a blog called Respectful Insolence, run by a David Gorski, MD, PhD, a surgeon who teaches Wayne State University.

“America’s Frontline Doctors” sue over deaths from COVID-19 vaccines. Hilarity ensues.
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/07 ... ctors-sue/

The post concentrates on the "risibly bad since and bizarre claims," and refers to a law professor named Dorit Reiss (new to me, but I've just given her a follow) to demolish the anonymous "expert" they are touting.

America’s Frontline Doctors make false claims about deaths from COVID-19 vaccines
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skeptic ... -vaccines/

Both posts are worthwhile.

Dr. Murky.

wserra wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:19 am Dr. Murky.

From that article;

In 2003, he published a book, “The No-Grain Diet,” which became a New York Times bestseller. He has since published books almost yearly. In 2015, he moved to Florida.

Is that the no-sugar, no-grains diet Stern was so vocal about?

100+ replies on a Nextdoor post about the vaccine. One guy is quoting the lawsuit by America's Frontline Doctors as "proof" of his stance. It's fucking hilarious! He's also using Carlson, Hannity, Infowars and OANN as his sources. People have reached the point where they're not even replying any more, just hitting the laugh icon.

The Nextdoor nitwits have been so thoroughly fact-checked by actual humans they are reduced to using Wapo reporters to counter statements made at the Congressional hearing by Dr. Fauci. At least they admitted the Wapo is a reliable source. I have great faith they will now be inundated with Wapo links by my Nextdoor peeps who actually have some sense.

The post is now up to almost 200 relies. Only 3 or 4 by me.

Watch this, antivaxxers. I remember polio. A majority of todays population probably doesn't. Anyone who wants to know about history needs to throw The History Channel into the shitter and listen to Simon on YouTube.

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:22 am 220343274_845404449725369_8145998723148254403_n.jpg