Fogbow

Dave from down under wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 8:00 am It’s still an armed mob.

It doesn’t matter how many or how few.

What they did was attack police protecting the capitol.

They were a mob

They were armed

They not only had those weapons but they used them on the police.

If you need an analog… the getaway driver for a hit man..
Or at a lynching where only one person ties the rope but everyone else is they to have it happen.

Poor scorn on the apologists!

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 8:25 am They just wanted to be heard?

They already had their chance on Election Day and in 60-plus court cases.

Rolodex wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 4:30 pm We're sorry they can't give him more - maybe it's a sentencing guidelines thing. From the thread I read, he's not the lease remorseful or understanding of why what he did was wrong.

Frater I*I wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 5:08 pm

Rolodex wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 4:30 pm We're sorry they can't give him more - maybe it's a sentencing guidelines thing. From the thread I read, he's not the lease remorseful or understanding of why what he did was wrong.

Well take solace in this....now he'll never get to legally possess a penial implant...err firearm ever again, that'll will hurt him until the end of his days...

Rolodex wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 5:13 pm
I didn't know that. Is that a federal/felony thing? Does it depend on the crime? OTOH I don't think this guy is too constrained by the actual law so I wouldn't trust that he doesn't rebuild his arsenal (which I'm sure he had) after he gets out. But that could net him some more stays courtesy of the government.

Rolodex wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 4:30 pm We're sorry they can't give him more - maybe it's a sentencing guidelines thing. From the thread I read, he's not the lease remorseful or understanding of why what he did was wrong.

Rolodex wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 8:37 pm That may be a better outcome than a long sentence.

Dave from down under wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 2:09 pm It’s not bullying…

It is accountability.

Hold their feet to the fire of truth and perhaps next time they will not try to overthrow the Republic and replace it with a dictatorship.

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 9:40 pm

Dave from down under wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 2:09 pm It’s not bullying…

It is accountability.

Hold their feet to the fire of truth and perhaps next time they will not try to overthrow the Republic and replace it with a dictatorship.

A few months ago, I was going back and forth with Brandon Straka, the Walk Away guy. He’s taken a page out of the Dinesh D’Souza/Michael Flynn playbook, plead guilty and cry about how he was really innocent or railroaded or coerced into pleading guilty.

I asked if he was lying when he signed the plea agreement. He kept asking me what he pleaded guilty to.

I don’t know. I don’t care and it doesn’t really matter. All that matters is that he signed an agreement admitting guilt. If you’re innocent, you plead not guilty and you fight it. Nobody gets coerced into pleading guilty to something if they’re not guilty of anything.

I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:01 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 9:40 pm I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

People do that all the time with plea bargains. Time served, no fine, and you go home today, or spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer and have a 50/50 chance of spending a couple of years in jail.

sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:01 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 9:40 pm

Dave from down under wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 2:09 pm It’s not bullying…

It is accountability.

Hold their feet to the fire of truth and perhaps next time they will not try to overthrow the Republic and replace it with a dictatorship.

A few months ago, I was going back and forth with Brandon Straka, the Walk Away guy. He’s taken a page out of the Dinesh D’Souza/Michael Flynn playbook, plead guilty and cry about how he was really innocent or railroaded or coerced into pleading guilty.

I asked if he was lying when he signed the plea agreement. He kept asking me what he pleaded guilty to.

I don’t know. I don’t care and it doesn’t really matter. All that matters is that he signed an agreement admitting guilt. If you’re innocent, you plead not guilty and you fight it. Nobody gets coerced into pleading guilty to something if they’re not guilty of anything.

I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

People do that all the time with plea bargains. Time served, no fine, and you go home today, or spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer and have a 50/50 chance of spending a couple of years in jail.

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:24 am

sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:01 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 9:40 pm


A few months ago, I was going back and forth with Brandon Straka, the Walk Away guy. He’s taken a page out of the Dinesh D’Souza/Michael Flynn playbook, plead guilty and cry about how he was really innocent or railroaded or coerced into pleading guilty.

I asked if he was lying when he signed the plea agreement. He kept asking me what he pleaded guilty to.

I don’t know. I don’t care and it doesn’t really matter. All that matters is that he signed an agreement admitting guilt. If you’re innocent, you plead not guilty and you fight it. Nobody gets coerced into pleading guilty to something if they’re not guilty of anything.

I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

People do that all the time with plea bargains. Time served, no fine, and you go home today, or spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer and have a 50/50 chance of spending a couple of years in jail.

DeSouza, Flynn and Straka could have afforded or raised money for the best defense possible.

There was no coercion in any of their cases.

northland10 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:25 pm I think I used this example previously.

If you are a defendant with a good enough relationship with Trump that a pardon is very likely, you might decide to let it go to trial even if you only have a 50/50 shot for acquittal if it looks good that Trump is going to win. You might get a whole bunch of charges with much more prison time but if your pardon is assured, you can just use it as a "I'm being oppressed" moment until Trump frees you. If, all of the sudden, Trump's chances are not looking good, it may be time to go for a deal so at least you can cut down on possibly prison time or maybe even get probation.

It is risk management.

For many others, bullying from prosecutors may cause some defendants who are truly innocent to go for a plea. There are many ways for folks to be bullied into pleading guilty to something they did not do, and some prosecutors are more interested in convictions than justice so they will push for the plea. We have an ugly history.

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:31 pm

northland10 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:25 pm I think I used this example previously.

If you are a defendant with a good enough relationship with Trump that a pardon is very likely, you might decide to let it go to trial even if you only have a 50/50 shot for acquittal if it looks good that Trump is going to win. You might get a whole bunch of charges with much more prison time but if your pardon is assured, you can just use it as a "I'm being oppressed" moment until Trump frees you. If, all of the sudden, Trump's chances are not looking good, it may be time to go for a deal so at least you can cut down on possibly prison time or maybe even get probation.

It is risk management.

For many others, bullying from prosecutors may cause some defendants who are truly innocent to go for a plea. There are many ways for folks to be bullied into pleading guilty to something they did not do, and some prosecutors are more interested in convictions than justice so they will push for the plea. We have an ugly history.

I don’t think there are any truly innocent J6 terrorists, however.
I also think there’s no such thing as a nonviolent J6 protester. One way or another every last one of them had something to do with all the injuries and fatalities.

sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:36 pm

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:31 pm

northland10 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:25 pm I think I used this example previously.

If you are a defendant with a good enough relationship with Trump that a pardon is very likely, you might decide to let it go to trial even if you only have a 50/50 shot for acquittal if it looks good that Trump is going to win. You might get a whole bunch of charges with much more prison time but if your pardon is assured, you can just use it as a "I'm being oppressed" moment until Trump frees you. If, all of the sudden, Trump's chances are not looking good, it may be time to go for a deal so at least you can cut down on possibly prison time or maybe even get probation.

It is risk management.

For many others, bullying from prosecutors may cause some defendants who are truly innocent to go for a plea. There are many ways for folks to be bullied into pleading guilty to something they did not do, and some prosecutors are more interested in convictions than justice so they will push for the plea. We have an ugly history.

I don’t think there are any truly innocent J6 terrorists, however.
I also think there’s no such thing as a nonviolent J6 protester. One way or another every last one of them had something to do with all the injuries and fatalities.

If this is how you construct arguments with others, I'm not at all surprised you show up here for nothing but to have people supply points for you to use.

Dave from down under wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:12 pm Far too little reach!

They should all have been rounded up and held in Gitmo till their trial for insurrection IMO.

They participated in an attempted coup to replace the republic with a dictator.

They were a fundamental threat to the existence of the United States of America being a representative democracy.

For the lowest foot soldier to their dear leader there can be no “over reach”.

If you are talking to an “originalist patriot”…
If an armed mob attacked the capitol after the first US president was elected to put King George back in control of the American states… how would those insurrectionist have been dealt with???