The dregs of birther remainders.

[Reality Check]

Can Samoans get a US passport?

The Google says yes but with this wording:

Instead of being U.S. citizens, American Samoans are deemed “noncitizen U.S. nationals” and their passports read: “The bearer is a United States national and not a United States citizen.”

[Res Ipsa]

My feeling is that they should be considered US citizens until they aren't, like we did in the Philippines.

More to the point, then is it also your feeling that the other 300 million US citizens who don't live in Samoa should have the same rights IN Samoa as Samoans do, and those rights should be based in US law?

[Ben-Prime]

My feeling is that they should be considered US citizens until they aren't, like we did in the Philippines.

More to the point, then is it also your feeling that the other 300 million US citizens who don't live in Samoa should have the same rights IN Samoa as Samoans do, and those rights should be based in US law?

This can also be something of a hotbed issue, I think. I mean, I'm told that in the Northern Marianas Islands, for instance, only locals and their descendents can own land. Guam allows land purchases by mainlanders from the U.S., but the CNMI does not.

I just checked and according to Wikipedia, American Samoa splits the difference. Freehold land, which is only about 10% of the territory, can be bought by non-Samoans, but the rest of the land has a different designation as 'customary land' and can only be sold to someone who is at least one-half Samoan by ancestry.

So I can see this would be a tradeoff, sure. Citizenship for loosening of some property right restrictions.

[bob]

Can Samoans get a US passport?

Sorta; Samoans can obtain U.S. passports that clearly identify them as "nationals."

* * *

I pretty much agree with what you are saying. My admittedly very limited perception, and the perception of people I know who have lived/worked there is that there is no clear consensus among the population one way or another, and not likely to be. My feeling is that they should be considered US citizens until they aren't, like we did in the Philippines.

The plaintiffs challenging the law essentially claim to speak for a silent majority. But the Samoan government, which is elected, has taken the opposite position. In other words, both sides claim a minority is foisting its desires on the majority.

But the U.S. Constitution is a notoriously countermajoritarian document; it essentially exists to protect individuals from decisions by the government. So there is a policy argument to be made that individuals should receive the full benefit of the U.S. Constitution, even if the American Samoan government doesn't want that.

[Foggy]

So nobody has answered the key question:

If Samoans are not US citizens, are they citizens of no country whatsoever?

Because that would suck.



I mean, shit. I'm willing to offer Fogbow citizenship, whaddya think, huh? As long as I don't have to have a bunch of 350 lb. football players sleeping on my living room floor, why not?

[Reality Check]

I believe the plaintiffs are a group of Samoans residing in Utah who believe they should be US citizens without going through any naturalization process. I thought the district court decision, which cited WKA quite a bit, made sense to me. These concepts of of "unincorporated territory" and "US national" seem quite arbitrary and extra-Constitutional to me. WTF is a "US national" anyway? If that isn't another term for a second class citizen what would be?

[bob]

I was beginning to think that Kerchner might be on the Dead Birthers list. (NADT.)

[Reality Check]

So nobody has answered the key question:

If Samoans are not US citizens, are they citizens of no country whatsoever?

Because that would suck.

I guess they think they are special because they live on this little chain of rocks in the middle of the Pacific but they aren't citizens of anything because Samoa isn't a country since it is a group of unincorporated rocks in the middle of nowhere that that the USA happens to own.

But maybe it wouldn't completely suck....

Do they pay US income taxes?
Can they collect Social Security ?
How about Medicare and Medicaid?
Can they benefit from other US federal programs?

[cassandra]

American Somoa:m Read all about it:

https://www.doi.gov/oia/islands/american-samoa

or a lot about it. The island is listed as a "territory" of the U.S. like Guam and the US Virgin Islands.

[Reality Check]

As I read it the status of the Samoans is similar to other territories in that they do not pay US taxes and cannot vote. They control their own immigration rules and entry into the territory. They operate their own provident fund that is similar to Social Security. They probably consider themselves to be citizens of Samoa although I am not sure that is a legal status.

I believe the desire to remain nationals and not US citizens is probably encouraged by the Samoan government, which has more power of self rule than other US territory governments and a distinct cultural identity. For someone living in Samoa there are probably no identifiable advantages of being a US citizen. For Samoans living in the US there are advantages such as the right to vote, hold public office, and avail themselves programs like SSI and Medicare.

[bob]

(It is obviously a joke.)

[bob]

"For fun" , I like to gauge the vox populi* about natural-born citizens. My totally subjective belief as to who recently has caught the nation's attention:

1. Ted Cruz (yes, is, but the people say no)
2. Elon Musk (no, isn't, but people wish he was)
3. Winsome Sears (no, isn't, and people are surprised to learn that)
4. Kamala Harris (yes, is, but I saw a dumb meme saying otherwise)
5. Barack Obama (yes, is, but folks will still say he isn't, years later)
6. John McCain (yes, was, but sometimes offered as a comparison to Cruz)
7. Nikki Haley (yes, is, and is still apparently somehow relevant?)
8. Marco Rubio (yes, is, and I guess he annoyed some racists recently?)
9. Mitt Romney (yes, is, and who cares?)
10. George Romney (yes, was, and ONE FROM THE VAULTS (literally!))



* Latin for "dumb stuff on Twitter."

[Foggy]

Thanks, bob, that's a helpful tool.

I'm thinking about recent Democratic presidents. Biden is the only one with long experience in our nation's capital. The others were not widely known before they ran. Carter and Clinton were Southern governors, neither had ever served in Congress. Obama was noticed by a lot of people for his speech at the 2004 Democratic convention, but he was a first-term senator and nobody knew much about him.

But Biden has been in D.C. since back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth. I thought that was a negative, but now that he's in office, it's working well for him. He knows where all the buttons and levers are. He knows what he can get done and what he can't. He has a plan, and his plan is based on reality, and he's very, very good at implementing his plan.

I hate January, February, and the first half of March.

[northland10]

I went searching through the Doc's place to try and find a conversation I had years ago (finding it is looking as futile as a birther case, and it may well have been on Woodman's or NBC's blog). I came across a post that had comments from a birther I had forgotten about going by the name Adrian Nash. He was pontificating all over the floor. For all the responses from many wonderful folks (I miss Ballentine's work), the person who described Nash's work the best was W4.

Mr Nash — I read the first half of your treatise on Natural Membership. I see that you begin as:

As a non-attorney private citizen, I have information I wish to submit that’s basically from beyond the realm of human opinion, human law, human verdict, and human research. It’s from the realm of natural law, -the realm from which our national foundational principles were drawn. The question of who is a natural born citizen is not answered anywhere in American jurisprudence. Rather, it’s defined solely by the principle of natural membership.

It has been my avocation to think about and write about the Natural Law principle of natural membership more than perhaps any other individual that ever lived. You are a philosopher, not a legal scholar. Your attempt to discern the fundamental nature of laws are by definition clouded by the fact that you are human and not divine. You are looking at a world where humans and human civilization have developed over time.

Your “facts” of natural law are not “facts” of nature, i.e. observable, reproducible, objective truths — they are your subjective truths, philosophical laws that you have discerned for yourself. Because they are yours, they are not universal. They seem to exist to you. The rest of us have not agreed that your subjective facts represent reality. You seem to be trying to reason from reason alone. This works for you in your cabin in the woods, but the modern world runs on man-made law, judicial opinions, and precedence.

Write you own philosophical treatise if you wish, but to operate in the real world you must establish that your “facts” are more than just yours.

Many birthers look at Vattel as settled law when The Law of Nations was simply a philosophical treatise. W4 hit the nail on the head. They look to find somebody to support their philosophical beliefs and not any actual law or facts.

The post with the conversation, if anybody wants a walk through memory lane.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/ ... tizenship/

[northland10]

I'm thinking about recent Democratic presidents. Biden is the only one with long experience in our nation's capital.

Nixon, and probably Johnson as well, soured the electorate on President who were longtime Washington politicians. With the exception of GHW Bush, all the presidents elected after Nixon until Obama were governors. While Obama was the first current or former senator elected since Nixon (first sitting Senator since JFK) he was not viewed as a long-time Washington insider. Hillary, or lost to hi then to Trump was.

When you think about it, that Trump lost to a Washington insider speaks volumes of how badly he was viewed by the electorate. We were willing to overlook the long-time insider in order to get rid of Trump.

[Foggy]

When you think about it, that Trump lost to a Washington insider speaks volumes of how badly he was viewed by the electorate. We were willing to overlook the long-time insider in order to get rid of Trump.

True dat.

[bob]

NBC: MyPillow CEO’s legal advisor has ties to GOP super PACs and has pushed false claims about Kamala Harris, Covid:

A member of MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell’s legal team has ties to Republican super PACs and has pushed false conspiracies about Vice President Kamala Harris and Covid-19.

Lindell has brought on William Olson as one of his legal advisors, according to a new filing made in federal court in Minnesota.

Olson is a known birther; his firm actually argued in court that Obama wasn't a natural-born citizen (under the beloved two-citizen-parent "rule").

But:

Olson’s recent legal work includes submitting an amicus brief that falsely claims Harris is not a natural born citizen of the United States and is not eligible to be vice president. Harris was born in California. The conspiracy about Harris — the first Black U.S. vice president — echoes the racist birther theory Trump and others spread about President Barack Obama.

As a birf-obsessed , I don't recall this filing. My hot take is the author is being loose with "amicus brief." I don't doubt that Olson believes Harris is ineligible; I doubt Olson put such thoughts to paper that were filed in a court.

Off to the research mines.

[filly]

Whatever happened to Admiral Fitzfundfilcher? Went to his blog but no entries since last year. If he died I doubt there’s anyone who would pay for an obituary.

[Luke]

Walt actually posted 19 days ago so it's 2021 but still pretty recent. His stye is on the list at my BirtherWatch page https://www.protopage.com/birthers

Jagoff.JPG (77.65 KiB) Viewed 1455 times

Walt seems to be a big fan of something about Froglegs. https://www.intellectualfroglegs.com/ He posted a link to an anti-vax Rumble video. Walt should absolutely NOT get vaccinated!


New Intellectual Froglegs: “VAX NATION!” Sunday, 26 December 2021 (Didn't watch)





You just know he's waiting and saving his money for the next Fogbow Meetup. He's gonna reveal The Madisonville Hoax again!

[bob]

As a birf-obsessed , I don't recall this filing. My hot take is the author is being loose with "amicus brief." I don't doubt that Olson believes Harris is ineligible; I doubt Olson put such thoughts to paper that were filed in a court.

I was helped into remembering: Olson signed onto Apuzzo's amici brief* that they filed in support of Laity's opposition to the motion to dismiss.

Olson also represented DumMETT and Noonan when they birfed Back in The Day.

So MyPillow and MyLaity are two degrees of birther apart!

Some jerk** tried sharing the good news at the P&E.


* Apuzzo may be ded, but the site for his merry band of birthers lingers on.

**

[filly]

Thanks 'Licious! Yeah a geezer with "diabetes" living in Tennessee should not get vaxxed!

[Luke]

Exactly, Filly! Walt Fitzpatrick must NOT get vaccinated!

Olson was in a CNBC article about Lindell:

Lindell has brought on William Olson as one of his legal advisors, according to a new filing made in federal court in Minnesota.

Olson's firm has done legal work for GOP super PACs that backed Ben Carson during the 2016 presidential election, supported then-President Donald Trump in the 2020 election and boosted Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, in his 2018 Senate race against former Rep. Beto O'Rourke, according to Federal Election Commission records.

Olson's recent legal work includes submitting an amicus brief that falsely claims Harris is not a natural born citizen of the United States and is not eligible to be vice president. Harris was born in California. The conspiracy about Harris — the first Black U.S. vice president — echoes the racist birther theory Trump and others spread about President Barack Obama.

Olson has also used his Twitter account to push some claims about the coronavirus that have been disputed by the FDA or deemed misleading by the social media platform.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/13/mypillo ... laims.html


h/t to Bob as always.

[Dr. Ken]

Whatever happened to James Youngblood or as I called him on doc cs site, jybrator

[bob]

Whatever happened to James Youngblood or as I called him on doc cs site, jybrator

No idea, but I believe this is GregNH, from Back in the Day:

[bob]

P&E comment:

Senator Goldwater was the subject of an eligiblity lawsuit claiming he was not a natural born citizen because he was born in Arizona when it was a territory before it became a state.

The suit was filed in the California Supreme Court asking that he be kept off the California ballot.

The Court denied the petition without comment.

https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesm ... geNumber=7

https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesm ... eNumber=16.

The lawyer filing the petition was Melvin Belli**

Belli's petition probably has been lost to the sands of time. The minute order denying the petition, however, may be locatable.

*

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