If there had been more, wouldn't they have been even closer together? Or am I missing the point they're trying to make?
There could be two close together in the middle. There could be four, one at each corner, far apart. No idea, but that’s one way to have too few too close together.
If there had been more, wouldn't they have been even closer together? Or am I missing the point they're trying to make?
Too close together and insufficiently resilient means a fire/collapse near them when they are clustered may take most/all of them out.
In one tower three of the four were blocked because of their proximity.
Dispersal reduces that likelihood.
(as does better construction of both the stairwells and the whole structure)
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:39 pm
by AndyinPA
I've been to the 911 Memorial in NYC. Those two buildings had a surprisingly small footprint.
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:58 pm
by Slim Cognito
AndyinPA wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:39 pm
I've been to the 911 Memorial in NYC. Those two buildings had a surprisingly small footprint.
Agreed. I expected something more massive.
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:55 pm
by northland10
Buildings and codes for that era allowed for obnoxiously small space for things like stairwells, and women's bathrooms. The whole architecture and construction world would often follow those codes to the letter not a square foot more in order to keep the total square footage down (reduced construction costs) or the rentable area up (more revenue). I remember a theater prof of mine lamenting a past project he was on at another school. He complained constantly that they needed to increase the size of the ladies ' rooms (or have more) but the project team would not budge. This is what the code required and they would have no more. He mentioned when he would go back and visit, he would hide his head around the swearing women in line at the restroom during intermission.
My day job office is 18 floors or so and in my opinion, the stairs are too narrow (mid-70s building). To mitigate the issue we have strict rules about not bringing anything with you during a fire (drink, laptop) and have any phone put away and we practice them once a year and if it is too slow, we will hear about it from the building manager and the fire marshal. They also have a process to evacuate a few floors above and below the floor with the fire, first, and then start doing others if needed which reduces getting delayed by the floors below you evacuating (I think it is 2 or 3 above and 1 below for evacuation). The stairwells are also positively pressured to keep smoke out though that does not work as well if there is a big gaping hole in the stairwell from the plane.
My building is also much, much much smaller than tall towers.
Partial apartment building collapse after gas explosion.
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:46 pm
by Volkonski
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:50 pm
by LM K
Thank you, Volkonski!
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:55 pm
by RTH10260
Lawsuit: Florida condo collapse triggered by building work
BY CURT ANDERSON AP LEGAL AFFAIRS WRITER
NOVEMBER 18, 2021 10:15 AM
Construction of a luxury building next door triggered the collapse of an already fragile Florida condominium that killed 98 people in June, according to a new lawsuit.
The lawsuit, filed late Tuesday on behalf of Champlain Towers South victims and family members, contends that work on the adjacent Eighty Seven Park tower damaged and destabilized a building in dire need of major structural repair.
Champlain Towers, the lawsuit claims, “was an older building in need of routine repairs and maintenance, but it was not until excavation and construction began on the luxury high-rise condominium project next door" that the building became unsafe. “The collapse was entirely preventable,” the lawsuit says.
How is that supposed to be a foreseeable risk? I want to construct a building, and I have to investigate all the nearby buildings to see if they might fall down if'n they get jiggled a little bit?
I mean, do you know how many hurdles a developer ALREADY HAS before she can put up a building?
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:00 pm
by RTH10260
Considering that the Champlain Towers had already prior structural deficits and survived the actual construction of the neighbouring buildind and nobody noticed nor made any claims of damages during that time I assume this will go nowhere. And any building ought to withstand certain exterior forrces. While not in a tremor zone they had to plan for the likes of hurricanes.
From some source, this same law suit is also directed at the law firm of the Champlain Towers management company; the claim is that the ignored "red flags" and did not warn the company of dangers. Until now I believed law firms were legal specialists and not architects and engineers Did any of the managers ask for help with documents? Law firms are not auditorsvthat poke their nose into company daily business.
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:14 pm
by noblepa
Foggy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:03 pm
How is that supposed to be a foreseeable risk? I want to construct a building, and I have to investigate all the nearby buildings to see if they might fall down if'n they get jiggled a little bit?
Isn't that the responsibility of the nearby building's OWNER?
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:47 pm
by Maybenaut
Law school was a long time ago, but from what I recall, adjoining landowners owe a common-law duty of lateral and subjacent support, but only to land in its natural state, not to structures. So if you dig a hole on your property and it causes my property to collapse, or causes a landslide, or whatever, you owe me for the cost of regrading my land, but you don’t have to build me a new shed.
And California had some additional statutory requirements, but I don’t remember what they are. No idea if Florida has any statutory duty beyond the common-law.
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:18 pm
by zekeb
Maybenaut wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:47 pm
Law school was a long time ago, but from what I recall, adjoining landowners owe a common-law duty of lateral and subjacent support, but only to land in its natural state, not to structures. So if you dig a hole on your property and it causes my property to collapse, or causes a landslide, or whatever, you owe me for the cost of regrading my land, but you don’t have to build me a new shed.
And California had some additional statutory requirements, but I don’t remember what they are. No idea if Florida has any statutory duty beyond the common-law.
Digging a hole next to my neighbor's house would not cause the concrete on his house to splay and the rebar to corrode. I'd say their sole purpose is to collect something from an insurance company to rid itself of this nuisance suit. Of course the lawyers want their 33%.
Residents ordered to evacuate building near to site of Miami condo collapse
Second building ordered evacuated in North Miami Beach since collapse of Champlain Towers South last June in nearby Surfside, which killed 98 people
Associated Press in North Miami Beach
Tue 5 Apr 2022 13.57 EDT
Re: Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:17 pm
by Volkonski
Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:39 am
by RTH10260
Man-Made Disasters
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 4:43 am
by RTH10260
On the Surfside condo collapse investigation
Investigators say tenant garage below collapsed Surfside condo tower had many faulty support columns
WSVN-TV
8 Mar 2024
Federal investigators determining why a South Florida condominium tower partially collapsed three years ago, killing 98 people, said Thursday there were many faulty support columns in the tenant garage that ran below it and the adjoining pool deck.
Did any of the managers ask for help with documents? Law firms are not auditorsvthat poke their nose into company daily business.