Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:10 am
Falsehoods Unchallenged Only Fester and Grow
https://thefogbow.com/forum/
"Eucharistic worthiness."? That term disturbs me.Every time I place Communion in someone's hand or tongue, it is an act of faith -- on my part and on that of the communicant. I say the words, "the body of Christ," to which the response is "Amen," meaning "it is true" or "let it be so" -- not always said with certainty but, often, with hope.
This revered sacrament of Communion is meant to signify what the word means: with oneness, with unity. The contentious debate of this week's American Catholic bishops' meeting threatens to have this sacrament become a symbol of division and a political and religious weapon. I wonder what the Jesus who prayed, "Father, may they all be one," would think.
The division among the American bishops became readily apparent soon after the election of President Joe Biden, when the bishops' conference formed a working group to deal with Biden's public stance favoring abortion rights, which collides with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
On Inauguration Day, the US Bishops' Conference president, Archbishop Jose Gomez, of Los Angeles, issued a statement that warned: "Our new President has pledged to pursue certain policies that would advance moral evils." Some of his fellow bishops decried the statement as a "weaponization of the Eucharist" for political purposes.
The virtual bishops' meeting this week brought the issue front and center as they debated whether to draft a document regarding the Eucharist. Some bishops maintain that such a document should confront what to do about Communion and Catholic politicians. The result of the meeting -- a lopsided vote of 24% opposed and 73% in favor of pressing ahead with the document -- was as evident a display of disunity among the episcopacy as we have seen, with some openly questioning their fellow bishops' motives.
Pope Francis has been quoted as saying, "The Eucharist is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak." A letter from the Vatican had appealed for "extensive and serene dialogue" and suggested that the bishops consult with other episcopal conferences before making any decision on drafting a document on the Eucharist.
Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark, New Jersey, summarized the feelings of bishops who opposed drafting the document: "The proposal before us presents us with a stark and historic choice. Voting in the affirmative will produce a document, not unity. Voting against it will allow us to work together in dialogue to forge a broad agreement on the serious questions embedded in the issue of Eucharistic worthiness."
The sentiment of the "pro-Francis" bishops like Tobin was not heeded. That 75% of the bishops voted to draft the document, solidifying a veritable schism among American bishops that will continue to play out until their next meeting in November, when they will gather in person for the first time in two years to debate and vote on the still-to-be-drafted document.
The almost hostile display of disunity among the bishops has been disheartening for many of the faithful. Where, they wonder, was the ire of some of these "pro-document" bishops with the flagrantly objectionable behavior of the former President, who openly opposed teachings of the Catholic Church on issues such as immigration, capital punishment, poverty, racism and climate change, and who was cruel toward the weak, the poor, people of color and people with disabilities? Where was their outrage when Trump attacked Pope Francis as being "disgraceful" and a "political pawn?"
Yes, Donald Trump is not Roman Catholic and was not receiving Communion, but is that the only litmus test we have by which to call politicians to act as moral agents? If they are not one of us, are we saying, who cares?
Joe Biden is a practicing Catholic who goes to Mass even when he is traveling in foreign countries, as we saw last week when he attended Mass in Cornwall during the G7 summit. In his 2007 book, "Promises to Keep," he wrote that while he is "personally opposed to abortion," he didn't feel he had the "right to impose (his) view on the rest of society,'" the same argument made by former New York governor, Mario Cuomo, in his famous Notre Dame University speech. (He risked excommunication for his views on abortion rights but was not barred from Communion.)
While I think that Biden's abortion stance is a politically expedient one that is inconsistent with other pro-life issues that he has championed, I think the issue of his reception of Communion is a private matter between him and his confessor. Can anyone else truly know the heart and intent of someone? One's reception of Communion is in accord with personal deliberation based on one's informed moral conscience. The person makes the decision, not the bishops or even the Pope.
The Catholic Church seems to have a real problem with a loving, forgiving God. They want to set up barriers between believers and the Almighty. This "selling the Eucharist" seems like a cousin to their indulgences.
It's okay. When they pass the offertory baskets down the rows, if you sufficiently toss in money, you'll buy your way to the Almighty.MN-Skeptic wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:42 am The Catholic Church seems to have a real problem with a loving, forgiving God. They want to set up barriers between believers and the Almighty.
It's the believe of the Catholic hierarchy that they are the sole gatekeeper between the mere mortal humans and the deity. The only ones that can rpesent the truth as by their interpretation of the sciptures. For that they have set up the runlebook of Catechism for the lowly humans who cannot undertand what is written in Greek / Latin / Aramaic.MN-Skeptic wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:42 amThe Catholic Church seems to have a real problem with a loving, forgiving God. They want to set up barriers between believers and the Almighty. This "selling the Eucharist" seems like a cousin to their indulgences.
Edit: a bunch removed because of whoopsie!The same goes for abortion. In fact, research has consistently shown that the majority of people who obtain an abortion have a religious affiliation. According to the most recent Guttmacher Institute data, in 2014:
17% of abortion patients identified as mainline Protestant;
13% as evangelical Protestant;
24% as Catholic;
38% reported no religious affiliation; and
8% reported some other affiliation
I disagree. I think the average catholic believes in a loving and caring God.MN-Skeptic wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:42 amThe Catholic Church seems to have a real problem with a loving, forgiving God. They want to set up barriers between believers and the Almighty. This "selling the Eucharist" seems like a cousin to their indulgences.
It is unbelievable that there are such vile Catholics and so-called pretend Christians who would stoop this low. Whoever that Twitter asshole is, I hope he burns for eternity in some kind of hell.filly wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:01 pm This demonstrates amazing cruelty on the part of those bishops, weaponizing the Holy Eucharist against a man whose faith has often been the only thing holding him together and willing him to live.
Then combine that with the cruelty of some who have tried to weaponize the death of Biden's beloved dog against him! One particular asshole on Twitter (who writes for the National Review Online and lists "Catholic" on his bio) took a shot at Champ AND Beau's death. These people will certainly burn in hell, if there is one.
I'm sure this will be as widely reported as the Bishops comments.No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen@NoLieWithBTC
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18h
BREAKING: Pope Francis criticizes US bishops who are trying to deny communion to President Biden because Biden believes in separation of church and state: "Bishops must be pastors, not politicians."
I sometimes wonder what it would take for the US branch of the Catholic Church to break off. I am actually a bit surprised there has not been a more dramatic showdown over some issue yet.Suranis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:35 amI'm sure this will be as widely reported as the Bishops comments.No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen@NoLieWithBTC
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18h
BREAKING: Pope Francis criticizes US bishops who are trying to deny communion to President Biden because Biden believes in separation of church and state: "Bishops must be pastors, not politicians."
The US branch would have to purchase all the property currently belonging to the Vatican, and give up funding by the Vatican. I don't think the Vatican would want to sell its holdings. That means the schismatic group would need to come up with the cash to buy their own churches, cathedrals, garments, etc., etc.
This is one of the implementation details I have been wondering about. I have no idea how the ownership is structured and if the chain of ownership passes through to the Vatican or if the various Catholic groups in the US are legally their own organization and their ties are purely religious.Azastan wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:03 pm The US branch would have to purchase all the property currently belonging to the Vatican, and give up funding by the Vatican. I don't think the Vatican would want to sell its holdings. That means the schismatic group would need to come up with the cash to buy their own churches, cathedrals, garments, etc., etc.
Here you go:neeneko wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:11 pmThis is one of the implementation details I have been wondering about. I have no idea how the ownership is structured and if the chain of ownership passes through to the Vatican or if the various Catholic groups in the US are legally their own organization and their ties are purely religious.Azastan wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:03 pm The US branch would have to purchase all the property currently belonging to the Vatican, and give up funding by the Vatican. I don't think the Vatican would want to sell its holdings. That means the schismatic group would need to come up with the cash to buy their own churches, cathedrals, garments, etc., etc.
Also, see this link;Catholic Church property belongs, according to canon law, to the juridic person that lawfully acquired it (Canon 1256). A physical person, such as a bishop or a parish pastor, cannot lawfully, according to canon law, own church property ; however, physical persons are the administrators of church property .
Pope Francis on Wednesday said bishops debating whether to deny communion to public figures who support abortion rights, such as President Joe Biden, should make their decisions from a "pastoral" viewpoint and not a political one.
"The problem is not theological, it's pastoral," Francis told reporters while traveling from Slovakia to Rome on Wednesday."How we bishops deal with this principle. We must be pastors, also with those who are excommunicated. Like God with passion and tenderness. The Bible says so."
His comments come amid a simmering debate within the US Catholic Church over granting communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights, including the nation's second Catholic President. Biden had been denied the sacrament in the run-up to the election and the issue drew new attention in June when the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops proceeded with a plan that could deny communion to such public figures, setting up a potential public rebuke of the President.
By a vote of 168 to 55, with six abstentions, the bishops had gone forward with plans for a report on the meaning of the Eucharist in the church. The vote is part of a longer process, and the Vatican would have to approve any action on behalf of the bishops.
Pew surveys show more than half of US Catholics favor abortion rights and most American Catholics do not believe Biden should be refused communion.
"The pastor knows what to do. In every moment that he leaves the church's pastoral path he immediately becomes a politician," Francis said Wednesday.
Ah, but that is religious law, which if they were going to split, they would not be beholden to anyway.Azastan wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:14 pm Here you go:
Also, see this link;Catholic Church property belongs, according to canon law, to the juridic person that lawfully acquired it (Canon 1256). A physical person, such as a bishop or a parish pastor, cannot lawfully, according to canon law, own church property ; however, physical persons are the administrators of church property .
https://ordinariate.net/parish-property-ownership