trump (convicted felon, defamer, insurrectionist, contemnor, and rapist - $537M)

[northland10]

Trump's plane is parked over in the cargo area which probably means he has some agreement with the airport management or whoever manages the joint cargo facility (used by FedEx, UPS, DHL at least in 2019, and Kalitta. Since it is over there, I almost wonder if one of the cargo carriers has it there as they will eventually take it over.

It is odd to leave it long-term up north and not in the southeast.

[Uninformed]

There is always the possibility that the DFO has outstanding bills and the airport are keeping the plane until he pays.

[Foggy]

Trump's plane is parked over in the cargo area which probably means he has HAD some agreement with the airport management or whoever manages the joint cargo facility (used by FedEx, UPS, DHL at least in 2019, and Kalitta.

I think, whatever arrangement he had with any entity regarding the storage of his plane, that he undoubtedly violated it and tried to cheat and lie his way out of the consequences. We don't know everything, but we do know that 1) he cheats, 2) he lies, and 3) he doesn't pay his legitimate bills. There's no reason to think this is any different than the way he handles any other business arrangement.

[johnpcapitalist]

Which is talking about parking them at an airpark in the middle of a desert in Australia. To be on the tarmac at a functioning airport in New York you at the very least ought to double that and I wouldn't be surprised if its $25k a month.

Newburgh Stewart Airport (SWF) is quite a ways north of NYC, closer to Albany than to Manhattan. The airport was intended to be the new JFK in the era of supersonic jets, so it has ludicrously long runways for the amount of traffic it sees, as well as lots of ramp space. So I don't think it's taking up a lot of room there versus, say, Teterboro (where the runways are too short anyway), where there is absolutely no spare ramp space. There's not a lot of long-term storage of airliners going on there because of the humidity and the winters -- the storage places are all in the desert.

I have no idea how much long-term ramp parking is there, but I'm sure he has cut a deal where he doesn't have to move it. Short-term parking fees for a 757-200 with 255,000 Max Takeoff Weight (MTOW) would be $3.75 per 24 hour period per 1,000 pounds of MTOW, or about $1,000 per day. However, one can negotiate a long-term parking contract with the Port Authority of NY/NJ, which runs SWF, according to this: https://www.panynj.gov/content/dam/airp ... es-swf.pdf. I assume it would be substantially lower, perhaps $5,000 to $10,000 per month.

The plane has sat so long its probably a maintenance nightmare and I'm not sure it'll ever be fit to fly again. Its not even worth much for parts, because its a very old variant of the 757 that major airlines no longer fly. Its a 757-200 of which according to AOPA there are still 500+ still flying, in such upscale locations as Kazakhstan, Latvia, and the Republic of Congo. There are 177 of them registered to American Airlines that are still flyable but have been idled since last year and are being replaced by newer planes as demand picks back up. In short, the thing is gonna be way to expensive for him to overhaul might end up being scrapped.

There might be an out for Trump other than scrapping this hunk of junk. I must admit that I have been doing a fair amount of work on the financial and competitive end of the aircraft business lately in my investment management work.

There is a major spike in interest in converting older passenger aircraft into freighters, as carriers are betting on high willingness by shippers to pay a premium for space on a dedicated cargo plane versus waiting on belly space on an airliner. There are even several startup cargo-only carriers buying or leasing planes, particularly in Europe or Asia. Last week, Airbus started floating trial balloons regarding a freighter version of its large A350. Amazon now flies its own planes both domestically and internationally, starting in 2016, but accelerating significantly since the pandemic started. Etc.

The industry chatter about a big wave of freighter conversions started last summer when it was clear that the global pandemic wouldn't be knocked down in 90 days. It kicked up into an even higher gear recently, as the Delta variant started to surge and threatened to tank passenger volumes (and thus, the number of passenger flights) again, crushing the fantasy of a smooth, linear recovery. I glanced at some data the other day that suggests weekly passenger traffic in the US is dropping faster than the initial strength of the early 2020 rebound suggested, as vacation travel ends without business travel to replace it, and

I recall reading last week that the 757 is one of the planes of choice for freighter conversions for reasons of size, capacity, international range and cost of used airframes. Book for the -200 model is probably around $5 million in typical used airline condition. Trump's plane is quite likely to be the lowest-time 757 (of any model) in the world today. It served as an airliner for only a handful of years before it was bought by Paul Allen, who then sold it to Trump. Since then, it has probably only flown 500 hours and 100 cycles per year, giving it a likely total time of 20,000 hours and 4,000 cycles (takeoffs, pressurizations and landings). 757's of similar vintage that have remained in airline use are more likely to be close to lifetime limits of 30,000 cycles (and around 120,000 Hobbs hours). So his plane could conceivably be worth closer to $10 or $12 million.

One engine is off the wing, allegedly in rebuild. The Trump Organization claims that they're having trouble scrounging a loaner engine to get the plane to a major overhaul facility, but the world is currently awash in used engines from planes going to the crusher, so I smell yet another clumsy lie. He's probably just lost interest in the whole program. Worst case, he can probably land a nicely overhauled engine for about $2 million with a swap of the old one, or can discount the plane by that much and let the buyer do the work. The RB211's on Trump's plane are in the 40,000 pound thrust class, which probably went for about $6 million new (in 2020 dollars), so $2 million for an older unit is about what I'd expect to see.

Yeah, there is some wear and tear if the plane hasn't been properly stored, but even allowing for those expenses (which surveyors can determine accurately by doing a comprehensive inspection of the plane), it's still worth far more than zero.

I view Trump as unlikely to sell because he doesn't want to admit that he's broke. He'd view it as a "loser" move to have to sell his plane. Like every other thing he does in life, he will manage to deal with this plane in the shittiest way possible, losing as much money as possible, just so he doesn't have to look in the mirror and feel like a loser. Claiming that it's hard to get a new engine is a way out for his precious ego that the rubes will swallow without thinking. But given that maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) business for the three major engine manufacturers) dropped by about 50% last year, Rolls has more than enough capacity right now to overhaul his engines in record time.

[johnpcapitalist]

I think, whatever arrangement he had with any entity regarding the storage of his plane, that he undoubtedly violated it and tried to cheat and lie his way out of the consequences. We don't know everything, but we do know that 1) he cheats, 2) he lies, and 3) he doesn't pay his legitimate bills. There's no reason to think this is any different than the way he handles any other business arrangement.

SWF is owned by the Port Authority of NY/NJ, an organization long known for corruption and graft. I tend to doubt that they will just roll over and take it when Trump fails to pay his storage. Trump is enough of a New Yorker to know they're not the right guys if you're looking for a patsy.

[Uninformed]

It has been suggested that the plane could be converted to a static exhibit. There are presumably thousands if not millions of deluded souls who would be excited to visit such a shrine.

[Estiveo]

It has been suggested that the plane could be converted to a static exhibit. There are presumably thousands if not millions of deluded souls who would be excited to visit such a shrine.

The future site of the Trump Presinutical Libary.

[fierceredpanda]

Given his enormous slush fund of monies raised through his PAC, I'm kind of surprised he hasn't tried to "sell up" so to speak and buy an Airbus A380 on the secondary market (I'm told one around its midlife point can be had for ~$50 million) on the basis of his lizard brain, "I've got a bigger one" thinking.

Also, I confess myself disappointed that my "757 Max 8" project joke earlier this evening didn't get any reaction. Harumph, I say.

[Dave from down under]

;P

[Gregg]

Amazon now flies its own planes both domestically and internationally, starting in 2016, but accelerating significantly since the pandemic started. Etc.

Ain't that the truth. Last Thanksgiving I had a 9 hour flight delay in Cincinnati and I sat there and watched a virtual parade of Amazon 767s taking off. Amazon has I thing something like 150 or so planes and it seemed like every one of them took off from CVG that day.


ETA: I just looked it up, Amazon actually only has give or take 85 planes but CVG is their main air hub and it was Thanksgiving Saturday which might be the busiest day of the year for their fleet.

[Maybenaut]

Given his enormous slush fund of monies raised through his PAC, I'm kind of surprised he hasn't tried to "sell up" so to speak and buy an Airbus A380 on the secondary market (I'm told one around its midlife point can be had for ~$50 million) on the basis of his lizard brain, "I've got a bigger one" thinking.

Also, I confess myself disappointed that my "757 Max 8" project joke earlier this evening didn't get any reaction. Harumph, I say.

OK, see, I knew you made a joke because you added the little drummer dude. But I didn’t get it.

[johnpcapitalist]

Given his enormous slush fund of monies raised through his PAC, I'm kind of surprised he hasn't tried to "sell up" so to speak and buy an Airbus A380 on the secondary market (I'm told one around its midlife point can be had for ~$50 million) on the basis of his lizard brain, "I've got a bigger one" thinking.

Also, I confess myself disappointed that my "757 Max 8" project joke earlier this evening didn't get any reaction. Harumph, I say.

OK, see, I knew you made a joke because you added the little drummer dude. But I didn’t get it.

Boeing's 737 Max 8 is part of the latest family of upgrades to the venerable 737. The goal of the family is to stretch the fuselage to support more passengers, and to deliver more fuel economy at the same time. To support the latter, you need larger diameter engines because they support a higher "bypass ratio" of air pulled through the outer stream of cooler and less-compressed air versus the highly compressed air that goes through the hot section. You have to keep the engines a certain distance off the ground to prevent multiple types of engine damage.

Boeing decided that greater landing gear height, with its increase in weight and structural bracing in the fuselage, was not acceptable. It would also increase the cost of the airplane without adding benefit to the airlines, which would make the 737 Max less competitive versus arch-rival Airbus.

Instead, they moved the engines forward on longer pylons and up to maintain the ground clearance they needed without extending the landing gear. But they knew that would have significant effects on the fundamental stability of the aircraft. So they designed and built a software system called MCAS (I forget what it stands for), layered on top of all the other flight control software, that would correct for the fundamental instability of the new engine placement.

Unfortunately, they did a crappy job on the software, rushing it to meet the delivery date for their launch customers. They also didn't put together a sufficiently comprehensive training program for the pilots learning to fly the thing. IIRC, there was a couple pages in the manual about this new system and a minute or two in the simulator.

In flight, in certain circumstances typically during takeoff, the MCAS system could get the idea that the change in pitch attitude (nose up/nose down) was happening because of the inherent instability of the aircraft and it would override pilot inputs and pull the nose down. The pilots, who weren't properly trained in disabling the system, would pull the nose up, the MCAS software would detect that and push the nose down, and you'd end up with a fight that consumed a lot of airspeed until the plane would eventually crash.

Boeing had two 737 Max crashes in short succession in (IIRC) 2018, and these were quickly shown to have been the fault of the MCAS software. Globally, government regulators and the airlines themselves stopped flying the plane, taking huge chunks of their fleets offline (IIRC, there were 300-500 of these things in service at this point), costing them immense amounts of money. Boeing immediately started working on a fix. Unfortunately, a "rush" fix in the aerospace business typically takes three or four years to implement and certify, so those planes have stayed grounded until relatively recently, when regulators have started to approve the fixes.

This will go down in history as one of the great disasters in the history of the airplane business. Sure, there have been other airplanes that have killed more people (see: early DeHaviland Comets and others). But it has destroyed Boeing's 60-year reputation for being the gold standard for quality and safety in the blink of an eye. It will take them decades to recover their market share in the business (if that's even possible), although it's worth noting that cost pressures in the aviation business mean that Airbus isn't exactly free of the risk of similar issues.

The punch line was an allusion to how Trump modifying and improving his 757, given his usual M.O. of doing everything as shittily as possible, would turn that plane into the 757 equivalent of the 737 Max 8.

I must confess that I misread the headline and I saw "737 Max 8" when FRP wrote "757 Max 8." I was going too fast and missed a good punch line. Sorry, FRP!

P.S.: Trump wouldn't buy an A380, even used, for a VIP conversion. Saudi prince Al-Waleed announced he was going to buy one for his personal jet (the 747 wasn't big enough) a few years back, but quietly walked away when he realized that the A380 can't get into enough airports that he needs to fly to. I don't think Trump would be welcomed in too many countries outside the US these days, and he could only get into a few airports domestically. Better to keep the 757 and supplement it with a G-550 for smaller airports like one near that rally last week in Alabama.

P.P.S.: I'm wondering whether Trump had the engine pulled from the plane, sent it to overhaul, and is trying to stiff the depot in typical Trump fashion, which is why he hasn't gotten the engine back. As I said upthread, it's not like the repair facilities are full. There aren't that many players in the commercial jet MRO business, so it wouldn't surprise me if everyone in the game knows that Trump is trying to screw one of their brethren, and nobody else will "loan" him an engine to get his plane flying again. Nobody's going to comp him a $2 million overhaul for advertising rights, because being named as Trump's exclusive engine overhaul facility buys them nothing.

[Maybenaut]

Boeing's 737 Max 8 is part of the latest family of upgrades to the venerable 737. The goal of the family is to stretch the fuselage to support more passengers, and to deliver more fuel economy at the same time. To support the latter, you need larger diameter engines because they support a higher "bypass ratio" of air pulled through the outer stream of cooler and less-compressed air versus the highly compressed air that goes through the hot section. You have to keep the engines a certain distance off the ground to prevent multiple types of engine damage.

Boeing decided that greater landing gear height, with its increase in weight and structural bracing in the fuselage, was not acceptable. It would also increase the cost of the airplane without adding benefit to the airlines, which would make the 737 Max less competitive versus arch-rival Airbus.

Instead, they moved the engines forward on longer pylons and up to maintain the ground clearance they needed without extending the landing gear. But they knew that would have significant effects on the fundamental stability of the aircraft. So they designed and built a software system called MCAS (I forget what it stands for), layered on top of all the other flight control software, that would correct for the fundamental instability of the new engine placement.

Unfortunately, they did a crappy job on the software, rushing it to meet the delivery date for their launch customers. They also didn't put together a sufficiently comprehensive training program for the pilots learning to fly the thing. IIRC, there was a couple pages in the manual about this new system and a minute or two in the simulator.

In flight, in certain circumstances typically during takeoff, the MCAS system could get the idea that the change in pitch attitude (nose up/nose down) was happening because of the inherent instability of the aircraft and it would override pilot inputs and pull the nose down. The pilots, who weren't properly trained in disabling the system, would pull the nose up, the MCAS software would detect that and push the nose down, and you'd end up with a fight that consumed a lot of airspeed until the plane would eventually crash.

Boeing had two 737 Max crashes in short succession in (IIRC) 2018, and these were quickly shown to have been the fault of the MCAS software. Globally, government regulators and the airlines themselves stopped flying the plane, taking huge chunks of their fleets offline (IIRC, there were 300-500 of these things in service at this point), costing them immense amounts of money. Boeing immediately started working on a fix. Unfortunately, a "rush" fix in the aerospace business typically takes three or four years to implement and certify, so those planes have stayed grounded until relatively recently, when regulators have started to approve the fixes.

This will go down in history as one of the great disasters in the history of the airplane business. Sure, there have been other airplanes that have killed more people (see: early DeHaviland Comets and others). But it has destroyed Boeing's 60-year reputation for being the gold standard for quality and safety in the blink of an eye. It will take them decades to recover their market share in the business (if that's even possible), although it's worth noting that cost pressures in the aviation business mean that Airbus isn't exactly free of the risk of similar issues.

The punch line was an allusion to how Trump modifying and improving his 757, given his usual M.O. of doing everything as shittily as possible, would turn that plane into the 757 equivalent of the 737 Max 8.

I must confess that I misread the headline and I saw "737 Max 8" when FRP wrote "757 Max 8." I was going too fast and missed a good punch line. Sorry, FRP!

Oh! I get it now! Yeah. That’s hilarious. A real knee-slapper! Hahahahaha. Ha. Heh.

Any joke that needs that level of explanation, well…

Seriously, tho, I love you guys!

[northland10]

This will go down in history as one of the great disasters in the history of the airplane business. Sure, there have been other airplanes that have killed more people (see: early DeHaviland Comets and others). But it has destroyed Boeing's 60-year reputation for being the gold standard for quality and safety in the blink of an eye. It will take them decades to recover their market share in the business (if that's even possible), although it's worth noting that cost pressures in the aviation business mean that Airbus isn't exactly free of the risk of similar issues.

That's because Boeing is only a name. Essentially McDonald-Douglass bought them with Boeing's money. Boeing was about engineering. MD was about being cheap.

[Slim Cognito]

It has been suggested that the plane could be converted to a static exhibit. There are presumably thousands if not millions of deluded souls who would be excited to visit such a shrine.

The future site of the Trump Presinutical Libary.

I think we may have a winner.

Too also, Red, sorry but it went over my head.

[Phoenix520]

oh! I get it now! Yeah. That’s hilarious. A real knee-slapper! Hahahahaha. Ha. Heh.

Any joke that needs that level of explanation, well…

Seriously, tho, I love you guys!

[Foggy]

McDonald-Douglass

McDonnell

[Gregg]

P.P.S.: I'm wondering whether Trump had the engine pulled from the plane, sent it to overhaul, and is trying to stiff the depot in typical Trump fashion, which is why he hasn't gotten the engine back. As I said upthread, it's not like the repair facilities are full. There aren't that many players in the commercial jet MRO business, so it wouldn't surprise me if everyone in the game knows that Trump is trying to screw one of their brethren, and nobody else will "loan" him an engine to get his plane flying again. Nobody's going to comp him a $2 million overhaul for advertising rights, because being named as Trump's exclusive engine overhaul facility buys them nothing.

That is interesting. Trump says the plane is gonna be overhauled in Louisiana and I wondered why he wasn't having it done in place.

[p0rtia]

P.P.S.: I'm wondering whether Trump had the engine pulled from the plane, sent it to overhaul, and is trying to stiff the depot in typical Trump fashion, which is why he hasn't gotten the engine back. As I said upthread, it's not like the repair facilities are full. There aren't that many players in the commercial jet MRO business, so it wouldn't surprise me if everyone in the game knows that Trump is trying to screw one of their brethren, and nobody else will "loan" him an engine to get his plane flying again. Nobody's going to comp him a $2 million overhaul for advertising rights, because being named as Trump's exclusive engine overhaul facility buys them nothing.

That is interesting. Trump says the plane is gonna be overhauled in Louisiana and I wondered why he wasn't having it done in place.

If you remember to replace "Trump says" with "Trump bullshits" 100 percent of the time, you get a clearer picture.

[northland10]

McDonald-Douglass

McDonnell

Friday fingers, and brain.

[Foggy]

Yeah sometimes I just can't help myself.

[northland10]

[RTH10260]

P.P.S.: I'm wondering whether Trump had the engine pulled from the plane, sent it to overhaul, and is trying to stiff the depot in typical Trump fashion, which is why he hasn't gotten the engine back. As I said upthread, it's not like the repair facilities are full. There aren't that many players in the commercial jet MRO business, so it wouldn't surprise me if everyone in the game knows that Trump is trying to screw one of their brethren, and nobody else will "loan" him an engine to get his plane flying again. Nobody's going to comp him a $2 million overhaul for advertising rights, because being named as Trump's exclusive engine overhaul facility buys them nothing.

That is interesting. Trump says the plane is gonna be overhauled in Louisiana and I wondered why he wasn't having it done in place.

The boys and girly who play with such toys have a garage down there. It's more than just pushing the machine thru the car wash. They are expected to find all screws again after they had fun with the screw drivers.

[Uninformed]

I think Kimmel’s video was on the deceased Fogbow and bears re-posting.

[Gregg]

P.P.S.: I'm wondering whether Trump had the engine pulled from the plane, sent it to overhaul, and is trying to stiff the depot in typical Trump fashion, which is why he hasn't gotten the engine back. As I said upthread, it's not like the repair facilities are full. There aren't that many players in the commercial jet MRO business, so it wouldn't surprise me if everyone in the game knows that Trump is trying to screw one of their brethren, and nobody else will "loan" him an engine to get his plane flying again. Nobody's going to comp him a $2 million overhaul for advertising rights, because being named as Trump's exclusive engine overhaul facility buys them nothing.

That is interesting. Trump says the plane is gonna be overhauled in Louisiana and I wondered why he wasn't having it done in place.

The boys and girly who play with such toys have a garage down there. It's more than just pushing the machine thru the car wash. They are expected to find all screws again after they had fun with the screw drivers.

Yeah, I'm a pilot so I know its not just a drive through, but I'm surprised RR doesn't have a facility there. I have friends who work for GE and they have overhaul facilities at every major airport in the USA and many overseas. If they don't have the stuff to fix your engine they have one to swap to keep you flying until your can be repaired wherever it needs to go.