Oxford, Michigan, School Shooting

[Flatpoint High]

I want to know how they afforded horses and how they neglected one child. Epitome of self-centered non-parenting.

And if they knew he was hallucinating and showing other signs of illness, why they encouraged tools of violence.

perhaps they were hoping he'd use the gun on himself?

[LM K]

Prosecutor asks court to ban parents of accused Oxford High shooter from mouthing ‘I love you’ during hearings

Once in person and again over the video streaming service Zoom, the parents of accused Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley mouthed “I love you” to each other during court hearings, according to the Oakland County Prosecutor’s Office.

The “actions during court proceedings are inappropriate in an open courtroom, they distract from the judicial process and they are disrespectful and harmful to the victims’ families,” said a motion filed by Oakland County Assistant Prosecutor Markeisha D. Washington on Tuesday, Feb. 1. Washington wants the behavior to stop during future hearings.


The parents, arrested on Dec. 3, are currently jailed on $500,000 bonds awaiting a Feb. 8 preliminary examination to determine if there is probable cause for the case to move toward trial.

“Mr. and Mrs. Crumbley’s conduct in court makes a mockery of the crimes they are accused of committing,” said Oakland County Chief Assistant Prosecutor David Wiliams “The courtroom is not a place for blowing kisses and sending secret signals. This is a time for families to pursue justice.”

The Oakland County Prosecutor’s Office takes issued with the couple’s behavior during two prior court hearings:: a Dec. 14, in-person probable cause conference; and a Jan. 7 bond reduction hearing that was held on Zoom.

During the in-person probable cause conference, while the attorneys were discussing scheduling, James Cumbley partially pulled down his mask and “mouthed what appeared to be ‘I love you’ to Jennifer Crumbley,” the prosecution’s motion said. “Defendants continued to mouth additional words between each other while the attorneys were at the bench.”

During the virtual Zoom hearing on Jan. 7, prosecutors said the attorneys and judge held a breakout session, during which Jennifer and James Crumbley remained visible to one another on the screen and again “used this opportunity to communicate with one another,” the prosecution’s motion said. Jennifer Crumbley “signaled and mouthed to defendant James Crumbley what appeared to be ‘I love you,’ waved at him and continued to signal and mouth words to him.”

Family of the victims in the case, “who are no longer able to express their love to the victims,” specifically asked if these sorts of communications are allowed in court or during virtual hearings according to the prosecution’s motion.

“Their communications are far more distracting and offensive than a cell phone going off in the courtroom, which the court would not condone,” the filing said. The defense has “indicated a willingness to instruct their clients to refrain from these types of communications; however, the (prosecution) seek an order from this court so that such restrictions will be enforceable.”

I support this motion. I would like to hear what our lawyers have to say about this.

[LM K]

Prosecutor asks court to ban parents of accused Oxford High shooter from mouthing ‘I love you’ during hearings

Once in person and again over the video streaming service Zoom, the parents of accused Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley mouthed “I love you” to each other during court hearings, according to the Oakland County Prosecutor’s Office.

The “actions during court proceedings are inappropriate in an open courtroom, they distract from the judicial process and they are disrespectful and harmful to the victims’ families,” said a motion filed by Oakland County Assistant Prosecutor Markeisha D. Washington on Tuesday, Feb. 1. Washington wants the behavior to stop during future hearings.


The parents, arrested on Dec. 3, are currently jailed on $500,000 bonds awaiting a Feb. 8 preliminary examination to determine if there is probable cause for the case to move toward trial.

“Mr. and Mrs. Crumbley’s conduct in court makes a mockery of the crimes they are accused of committing,” said Oakland County Chief Assistant Prosecutor David Wiliams “The courtroom is not a place for blowing kisses and sending secret signals. This is a time for families to pursue justice.”

The Oakland County Prosecutor’s Office takes issued with the couple’s behavior during two prior court hearings:: a Dec. 14, in-person probable cause conference; and a Jan. 7 bond reduction hearing that was held on Zoom.

During the in-person probable cause conference, while the attorneys were discussing scheduling, James Cumbley partially pulled down his mask and “mouthed what appeared to be ‘I love you’ to Jennifer Crumbley,” the prosecution’s motion said. “Defendants continued to mouth additional words between each other while the attorneys were at the bench.”

During the virtual Zoom hearing on Jan. 7, prosecutors said the attorneys and judge held a breakout session, during which Jennifer and James Crumbley remained visible to one another on the screen and again “used this opportunity to communicate with one another,” the prosecution’s motion said. Jennifer Crumbley “signaled and mouthed to defendant James Crumbley what appeared to be ‘I love you,’ waved at him and continued to signal and mouth words to him.”

Family of the victims in the case, “who are no longer able to express their love to the victims,” specifically asked if these sorts of communications are allowed in court or during virtual hearings according to the prosecution’s motion.

“Their communications are far more distracting and offensive than a cell phone going off in the courtroom, which the court would not condone,” the filing said. The defense has “indicated a willingness to instruct their clients to refrain from these types of communications; however, the (prosecution) seek an order from this court so that such restrictions will be enforceable.”

I support this motion. I would like to hear what our lawyers have to say about this.

[LM K]

Surrender was part of accused Oxford shooter's plan, Oakland prosecutor says

The accused Oxford High School shooter's plan included inflicting damage, then surrendering in a bid to survive and admire his work, according to a recent filing by the Oakland County prosecutor.

"The importance of surrendering is that he would not be killed and would be alive to witness the suffering he had caused," Prosecutor Karen McDonald claimed in a January court filing about 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley.

And Crumbley wanted to be remembered, the prosecutor's office said in the Jan. 19 filing made ahead of a hearing this month on whether the teen should remain in Oakland County Jail or be transferred to a juvenile facility while he awaits trial.


Crumbley, charged with 24 counts, including terrorism causing death in a shooting that killed four students and wounded seven people, including a teacher, spoke of "doing something that will make people think about (him) until time ends," according to filings reviewed by The Detroit News.

His court-appointed aides see it differently.

Crumbley's surrender was proof of his willingness to take orders, attorneys Paulette Loftin and Amy Hopp said in their own Jan. 19 filing. When police approached, he got down on his knees and put his hands up.

The filings in the case reveal an isolated existence for Crumbley and a tug-of-war about what the public should see before a trial, and what should remain off-limits.

The scenario McDonald attributes to Crumbley can in part be found in sworn testimony by police.

Lt. Timothy Willis of the Oakland County Sheriff's Office, during a December hearing in 52-3 District Court when a judge approved charges against Crumbley, said police found two videos from the night before the shooting, "wherein he (Crumbley) talked about shooting and killing students the next day" at Oxford High.

"A journal was recovered from Ethan's backpack also detailing his desire to shoot up the school, to include murdering students," Willis continued.


The prosecutor's claims about the scenario Ethan allegedly planned came before his attorneys gave notice that they'd offer an insanity defense for their client. The prosecution responded, saying it would call witnesses with whom he's interacted since his arrest from the Children's Village to the county jail.

[Foggy]

I am not an attorney any more, but I tried more than a hundred trials.

There are legends about lawyers who intentionally distracted the jury from listening to a particularly damaging witness for the opposition, by various methods. One that I've heard of is to hold the palm of your right hand facing up, and carefully balance a penny on the tip of your pinkie finger. Then, concentrating forcefully, pass the penny to the tip of your ring finger. Then pass it over to the tip of your middle finger.

At that point the judge will instruct the bailiff -- who has a gun and a pair of handcuffs -- to arrest you for contempt of court and take you out the door behind the judge. That's not the door you want to use to leave the court, as was explained to me in the first year of law school.

So be more subtle. I'm not going to give you any pointers, but there are things you can do.

I have said here before, court is a psychological battlefield as much as a place for seeking the truth. As a lawyer, you are like a mental gladiator, and your job is to do whatever you can, within the limits, to win your case for your client.

'Course, if you get arrested for balancing pennies on the tips of your fingertips in the middle of a trial, that might hurt your case a little, which is why I generally suggest being more subtle than that. A LOT more subtle, actually.

However, as I said, it's war, and there are things you can do to influence the outcome. Which is why I'm still verklempt about them not making Kyle lose his temper when he was on the stand. It would have been so easy, and so effective. Opportunity lost, boo hoo.

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

A lawyer in south Arkansas was legendary for smoking a cigarette with a looooooonnngggg ash on it. One of the judges told me about it. Course, that was back in the day when cigarettes and spittoons were allowed in courtrooms.

[LM K]

Oxford High School shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley planning insanity defense

Teenager Ethan Crumbley plans to pursue an insanity defense for his alleged role in the Oxford High School mass shooting that killed four Oxford students, injured seven others and devastated an entire community, according to a Thursday court filing.

"Please take notice that ... Ethan Crumbley intends to assert the defense of insanity at the time of the alleged offense," his lawyers, Paulette Loftin and Amy Hopp wrote in the one-paragraph filing in Oakland County Circuit Court.

The filing now paves the way for Crumbley to receive a psychiatric evaluation, which has not yet been done and is needed to pursue an insanity defense.

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald has previously stated that she has no reason to believe that Crumbley's mental state would affect his ability to face charges.


"It’s going to come down to a battle of the experts," Rataj said, "and whether the jury is going to believe that the kid cannot formulate the necessary intent because he’s insane."

Rataj also noted: "People who are schizophrenic — that doesn’t necessarily mean that they're not guilty by reason of insanity."

Prosecutors have portrayed Crumbley as a troubled and homicidal teen who battled depression, hallucinated, tortured animals, was fascinated with guns and Nazi propaganda. They also have blamed the parents for the mass shooting, saying they ignored numerous red flags that their son was in trouble, and instead bought him a gun, which he allegedly used in the massacre.


Was Ethan 'mad or bad?'

Dr. Ziv Cohen, a Cornell University psychiatrist who has consulted on over 50 murder cases, said the Ethan Crumbley defense team faces an uphill battle in proving legal insanity.

According to Cohen, the legal definition of insanity requires proving that someone is so out of touch with reality, that they don’t understand the consequences of their actions.

“It’s a pretty high threshold you have to cross,” Cohen said, adding “less than 1% of insanity defenses actually work.”

According to Cohen, it will not be enough to show that Ethan Crumbley was depressed or engaged in unusual behavior, like torturing animals, which prosecutors have alleged.

At issue will be determining whether Ethan Crumbley has a psychotic illness — where he breaks from reality and doesn’t understand the consequences of his actions — or if his behavior points more to bad character of that of a psychopath.

“Not having a conscience doesn’t reduce your culpability,” Cohen said.

As for allegations that Ethan Crumbley tortured animals, Cohen said that’s not a pattern with psychosis, but rather more with someone who has psychopathy — or is a psychopath.

According to Cohen, a key question in Ethan Crumbley’s case will be: Was he mad or bad?

“These defendants are either mad or bad,” Cohen said. “Madness versus badness are both on the table. I suspect you’re going to have a battle of the experts.”

Being 15 may help

Cohen, who frequently evaluates psychopaths, predators and violent criminals in prison, said what Ethan Crumbley may have going for him is his youth. The jury might be more likely to feel compassionate toward him, he said, or view the teen as troubled or not well, and therefore may have a lower threshold for considering him insane.

A judge could also take his age into consideration at sentencing, and give him a lower sentence, Cohen said, noting that happened in 2016 psychiatric hospital murder case he testified in in New York. The jury convicted a 20-year-old psychiatric patient of second-degree murder for strangling another patient in the shower with a towel after beating him first. The judge gave him 17 years instead of 25 to life.

Cohen, also an adjunct professor at Columbia University, explained how an insanity defense can work.

For example, if a schizophrenic shoots a police officer because they think he’s an alien invader, that’s a classic example of someone who is legally insane, he said. They don’t understand they are shooting a human, but an alien invader.

But if a schizophrenic is irritable and pushes someone in front of a subway, that doesn’t fit the criteria for legal insanity, he said.

Insanity defenses can also work in a plea deal, where the defendant has such a such a strong showing of legal insanity that the prosecutor agrees to an insanity plea.

"But in a case like this, " Cohen said, "a prosecutor is unlikely to agree to that."

The insanity defense came as no surprise to the prosecutor's office.

"As expected, Ethan Crumbley's attorney has requested an evalution of his criminal procedure, This is standard procedure," Chief Assistant Oakland County Prosecutor David Williams said in a statement, adding the teenage suspect will be evaluated by a forensic psychiatrist, who will then prepare a written report.

'A cry for help'


"As horrifying as it is, sometimes these actions can be a cry for help," Dr. Cohen said of the shooting.

[Phoenix520]

I admit I have a lot of compassion for Ethan. The poor kid never had a chance with those psychopathic parents.

LM K, do psychopaths always raise psychopaths? I know not all psychopaths come from the psycho parents, but can psychopaths raise any other kind of child except one just like them?

[filly]

It’s a goddamn shame hehad awful parents who did nothing to get him help. But my compassion goes entirely to the parents and families of the victims. Entirely.

[Phoenix520]

Ninety-nine percent for victims; still 1% left for thrown-away children.

[RTH10260]

[Uninformed]

As their legal peril becomes real it will be interesting to see if one parent attempts to throw the other under the bus.

[AndyinPA]

As their legal peril becomes real it will be interesting to see if one parent attempts to throw the other under the bus.

Why not? They've already thrown their son under it.

[Azastan]

As their legal peril becomes real it will be interesting to see if one parent attempts to throw the other under the bus.

Dad will throw Mom under the bus.

[Phoenix520]

I think Mom will underbus Dad.

[Azastan]

I think Mom will underbus Dad.

Mom was the one he texted about the demons. Did she bother to tell dad about the texts? I want to know whose name is on the registration for the gun, acting as the strawman purchaser?

[Jim]

Dad will throw Mom under the bus.

I think Mom will underbus Dad.

I think you're both right, and the kid will tell the judge "See the crap I gotta put up with???"

[W. Kevin Vicklund]

This seems to be an instance where it is clearly in the best interest of each of the defendants to throw the others under the bus as hard as possible. Not even a Prisoner's Dilemma.

[filly]

I think Mom will underbus Dad.

Mom was the one he texted about the demons. Did she bother to tell dad about the texts? I want to know whose name is on the registration for the gun, acting as the strawman purchaser?

No mystery. It's the dad. He bought the gun on Black Friday.

I don't think a defense that "she didn't tell me" is going to work. The kid had serious problems, it was obvious, dad bought the gun for an "early Christmas present" for the kid.

[Azastan]

No mystery. It's the dad. He bought the gun on Black Friday.

I don't think a defense that "she didn't tell me" is going to work. The kid had serious problems, it was obvious, dad bought the gun for an "early Christmas present" for the kid.

In that case, I am heading for the door, because I don't want to get caught in the middle of what is going to be fast and furious underbussing.

[Jim]

No mystery. It's the dad. He bought the gun on Black Friday.

I don't think a defense that "she didn't tell me" is going to work. The kid had serious problems, it was obvious, dad bought the gun for an "early Christmas present" for the kid.

In that case, I am heading for the door, because I don't want to get caught in the middle of what is going to be fast and furious underbussing.

IIRC they both are using the same lawyer that they both paid for, how's that gonna work?

[filly]

One or both will ask for new lawyers and thereby delay the proceedings.

[LM K]

There was a long hearing in the parents case today.

Mom knew that Ethan was a risk to self and others the morning of the shooting.

Mom is a monster. We'll learn more about dad with time.

But mom is a fucking monster.

Witnesses testified in a Michigan county courtroom on Tuesday that the mother of Oxford High School shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley sent ominous texts the day of the shooting that left four students dead and seven others injured.

Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald charged Jennifer Crumbley, 43, and her husband, James Crumbley, 45, with involuntary manslaughter in December, alleging that their 15-year-old son used a gun his parents purchased for him during the Nov. 30 shooting. Both parents pleaded not guilty at their arraignment and are being held on $500,000 bond each.

Kira Pennock, the owner of a Michigan horse farm who housed two of the Crumbley family's horses, testified during a preliminary hearing on Tuesday that Jennifer Crumbley texted her before and after the Nov. 30 shooting.

"…Just got to go to my son's school and meet his counselor. Sh*t day," Jennifer Crumbley texted Pennock just before 11 a.m. Nov. 30 in a conversation about her horse lesson scheduled for later that day.

McDonald revealed in January that school officials met with Ethan Crumbley and his parents to discuss violent drawings he made just hours before the deadly rampage.

The 15-year-old suspect was able to convince school officials during the meeting that the concerning drawings were for a "video game." His parents "flatly refused" to take their son home, the prosecutor said at the time.

Jennifer Crumbely said in another text to Pennock on the morning of Nov. 30 that she still planned on attending her horse training, saying her son was just going through a "hard time" after the death of their family dog, Tank, and "his friend going away to a treatment facility and who knows what else."

After the meeting, Jennifer Crumbley texted Pennock suggesting she might bring Ethan Crumbley to the horse farm on the afternoon of Nov. 30 after school, saying, "He can’t be left alone."


Smith, a lawyer for whom Jennifer Crumbley worked as his firm's marketing director, testified that Jennifer Crumbley notified him the morning of the shooting that she had a meeting with his school counselor and sent a photo of the drawing.

"I have to go to school. Counselor just called. This is what I’m dealing with," she texted him, along with the photo.

Later that day, when she was back in the office, Smith testified that he heard her scream when she learned of the shooting at Oxford High School.

"I heard loud yelling, screaming," Smith said.

After learning that her son was the suspected shooter, Jennifer Crumbley texted Smith: "The gun is gone and so are the bullets," and "Omg Andy he's going to kill himself he must be the shooter." She also said, "Ethan did it."

"I need my job. Please don’t judge me about what my son did," she texted Smith.

Smith told the court he "was surprised she was worried about her job at the time," but later stated that she could have been worried about her son, as well, in response to a question from Jennifer Crumbley's defense attorney.

More texts from Jennifer Crumbleys:

Pennock later heard there had been a school shooting and reached out to Jennifer Crumbley to see if she was OK. Pennock testified that Crumbley responded later that day saying, "I need to sell my horses."

"My son ruined so many lives today," Crumbley wrote in another message.

"This doesn't even remotely make me think this is your fault," Pennock responded.

"I wish we had warnings something (sic). He's a good kid they made a terrible decision," the mother wrote.

Smith, the former boss, took the stand midday Tuesday and said he received a text from Jennifer Crumbley on November 30 that she had to go to her son's school to deal with the violent drawing.

Later that day, after she had returned to the office, he heard her screaming down the hallway, he testified. She said there was an active shooter at her child's school and she had to go.

He then got a call from her saying that their gun was missing.

"The gun is gone and so are the bullets," Jennifer Crumbley texted Smith.

"I'm praying everything is ok!" he replied.

"Omg Andy he's going to kill himself he must be the shooter," she wrote. "I need a lawyer at a substation with police."

The next text from Jennifer said, "Ethan did it."

Smith, who didn't reply to those texts, testified that his reaction was "complete shock." She later sent him the text about her job status and wrote, "they are taking my cell phone."

Crumbley spoke about horses more than her son, coworkers say

Two of Jennifer Crumbley's former co-workers also testified Tuesday that she spoke about her horses more often than she talked about her son.

Kathy Poliquin, an HR director at the company where Crumbley used to work, said they never talked about her son getting medical attention, but "a few times she mentioned the horse was sick."

When Crumbley messaged her about losing her job, Poliquin told her not to worry about it. A senior member of the company said she would be on administrative leave for a few weeks.

Shannon Smith, Jennifer Crumbley's attorney, noted that her client mainly spoke to Poliquin about work-related matters. She said Crumbley needed information from her so she could get money for a lawyer and that Jennifer was trying to get a loan so she needed check stubs.

Amanda Holland, an administrative assistant at the company, testified Tuesday that Crumbley also spoke about her marital issues and a temporary separation from her husband. Holland said Jennifer didn't talk about her son very often, but said Jennifer once voiced her concerns about Ethan being lonely after a friend moved away.

"She was concerned that he would be lonely. It was his main friend. She was concerned that he would be alone," Holland said.

Holland also said Jennifer spoke often about her horses and that Jennifer told her she was going to the barn "almost every day."

Father called 911 after noticing missing gun

Oakland County Sheriff's Office Det. Edward Wagrowski, who works in the computer crimes unit, testified about social media accounts, call logs and text messages between the three Crumbleys.

On the day of the shooting, Wagrowski confirmed that Jennifer Crumbley sent her husband a copy of their son's violent drawing with the text, "Call now EMERGENCY."

"My God WTF," he wrote.

After some back and forth, Jennifer Crumbley wrote, "I'm very concerned."

The parents went to school for a meeting with officials that lasted about 13 minutes, according to surveillance video.

In court, prosecutor Marc Keast played a 911 call made by James Crumbley after learning about the shooting and realizing his gun was missing.

"I have a missing gun at my house. I need an officer to come," he said. "I think my son took the gun. I don't know if it's him. I'm freaking out."

Attorneys also played a voicemail from Oxford High School to Jennifer Crumbley saying that her son had been looking at bullets on his phone in class. She then texted her son about the incident.

"Seriosuly?? Looking up bullets in school??" she wrote.

"oh yeah," he responded. "it was in first hour. All I did was look up a certain caliber because I was curious. It was on my phone completely harmless."

He said this wasn't anything to get in trouble about and his mother agreed.

"Lol I'm not mad you have to learn not to get caught," she said.

[RVInit]

[RVInit]