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Another Shooting

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bob
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Re: Another Shooting

#201

Post by bob »

Slim Cognito wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:43 am I'm sure many actors are gun owners, but how would an actor check to see if the appropriate materials were in the prop gun? Are they supposed to know that? I sure as heck wouldn't have a clue?
The actor doesn't have the responsibility to know whether the firearm is properly loaded; that's the armorer's job. But the actor is part of the collective responsibility to verify guns claimed to be unloaded in fact are. It is easy to teach someone how to check whether the firearm is loaded, including how to safely inspect the chamber. (And someone who can't learn this shouldn't be in a production with firearms.)

Slim Cognito wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:33 pm Just my arrogant opinion but I see no reason why all movie/tv prop guns shouldn't be replicas with working triggers, with CGI and audio added later.
The standard line is that it is relatively easy to add CGI to a firearm to simulate it being shot. But it is more difficult (read: expensive) to add CGI to everything else, i.e., the actors, the surroundings, etc. In other words, it is still cheaper to use practical rather than special effects for gunshots.

But, like everything else, "cheaper" becomes relative when the cost of insurance, lawsuits, goodwill, also is factored in.
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Re: Another Shooting

#202

Post by roadscholar »

Many friends worked on movies, some still do, and AFAIK the actors do not play any part in verifying weapon status. You can’t trust actors can tell a blank round from a real one. The armorer is tasked with that and with making sure live rounds are not even present on the set. At all. Ever.

There was a lot of unprofessional sloppiness going on here, but it wasn’t Baldwin’s.
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Re: Another Shooting

#203

Post by filly »

roadscholar wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:57 am Many friends worked on movies, some still do, and AFAIK the actors do not play any part in verifying weapon status. You can’t trust actors can tell a blank round from a real one. The armorer is tasked with that and with making sure live rounds are not even present on the set. At all. Ever.

There was a lot of unprofessional sloppiness going on here, but it wasn’t Baldwin’s.
Except he was a Producer as well. Facts will need to be developed.
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Re: Another Shooting

#204

Post by RTH10260 »

Rust assistant director who gave Alec Baldwin gun ‘was subject of 2019 safety complaint’
Prop maker Maggie Goll says she raised complaints about Dave Halls in TV series Into the Dark but that issue is ‘in no way one person’s fault’

Soo Youn in Los Angeles and agencies
Mon 25 Oct 2021 03.45 BST

A crew member disclosed that she had raised safety concerns in the past about the assistant director whom authorities say unwittingly handed actor Alec Baldwin the prop gun that killed a cinematographer on a film set in New Mexico last week.

Maggie Goll, a prop maker and licensed pyrotechnician, said she filed an internal complaint with the executive producers of Hulu’s Into the Dark TV series in 2019 over concerns about assistant director Dave Halls’ conduct on set.

Goll alleged in an interview that Halls had previously not followed safety protocols for weapons and pyrotechnics when she worked alongside him on a TV series in 2019.


https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/o ... -complaint
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Re: Another Shooting

#205

Post by Flatpoint High »

filly wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:06 am
roadscholar wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:57 am Many friends worked on movies, some still do, and AFAIK the actors do not play any part in verifying weapon status. You can’t trust actors can tell a blank round from a real one. The armorer is tasked with that and with making sure live rounds are not even present on the set. At all. Ever.

There was a lot of unprofessional sloppiness going on here, but it wasn’t Baldwin’s.
Except he was a Producer as well. Facts will need to be developed.
again, that is not his Union. https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... ch-warrant
The shooting took place after six members of the film’s crew walked off the set after complaining to the production company about payment and housing, camera operator Reid Russell told Det. Joel Cano. The affidavit offered the most detailed chronology yet of an unfolding tragedy.

Halls had taken one of three prop guns set up by Gutierrez Reed on a cart left outside the structure because of COVID-19 restrictions, the affidavit said. Halls did not know live rounds were in the gun when he handed it to Baldwin, and Halls yelled “cold gun,” according to the affidavit.

Souza said cast and crew were preparing the scene before lunch but then had a meal away from the rehearsal area around 12:30 p.m., according to the affidavit. When they returned, Souza said, he wasn’t sure if the gun was checked again, the affidavit said.
When they came back from lunch, a creeping shadow prompted the camera to be moved to a different angle, Russell said in the affidavit. As Baldwin was explaining how he was going to draw his gun and where his arm would be when he pulled the gun from the holster, it discharged, Russell said.
Read the rest of the article. if you get the "paywall" just clear the cache/cookies
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Re: Another Shooting

#206

Post by RTH10260 »

Alec Baldwin was pointing gun at camera when it went off, director says
Joel Souza says actor was practising a scene at time of accidental shooting of Halyna Hutchins

Luke Harding
Mon 25 Oct 2021 12.21 BST

Alec Baldwin was practising a scene that involved him pointing a gun “towards the camera lens” when it accidentally went off, killing his director of photography, according to a written statement by the film’s director.

The director, Joel Souza, said he heard what “sounded like a whip and then a loud pop”. He said he saw the cinematographer Halyna Hutchins clutch her midriff and stumble backwards. Souza noticed that he himself was bleeding from the right shoulder.

The cameras were not rolling at the time. Baldwin was sitting on a wooden church pew on the set and trying out a scene in which he would “cross-draw” a revolver from its holster. Hutchins and Souza were checking the camera angle.

Moments before the accident, Baldwin was assured he was handling a “cold gun”, Souza told investigators. The film’s armourer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, checked prop weapons, and the assistant director, Dave Halls, rechecked them and handed them to the actors, Souza said. It was Halls who gave Baldwin the gun, police said.

Affidavits released on Sunday night paint a picture of a dysfunctional and feuding set, where five crew members walked out last Thursday just hours before the fatal shooting at Bonanza Creek Ranch in New Mexico. They were unhappy with pay and conditions.



https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/o ... ector-says
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Re: Another Shooting

#207

Post by roadscholar »

filly wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:06 am
roadscholar wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:57 am Many friends worked on movies, some still do, and AFAIK the actors do not play any part in verifying weapon status. You can’t trust actors can tell a blank round from a real one. The armorer is tasked with that and with making sure live rounds are not even present on the set. At all. Ever.

There was a lot of unprofessional sloppiness going on here, but it wasn’t Baldwin’s.
Except he was a Producer as well. Facts will need to be developed.
In that case, the actual gun mixup still wasn't his fault, but perhaps the sloppiness and professional lapses on that set, to some extent, were.
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Re: Another Shooting

#208

Post by Slim Cognito »

The LA Times article was interesting. Filling in the gaps here and there. This paragraph has links to other articles I didn't read because of paywalls but still informative.
Hutchins’ death follows other accidents that have happened on TV and movie sets. Some in Hollywood and the greater community have called for sets to no longer have operational firearms, especially as muzzle fire could be added through post production. A California state senator has announced plans to propose legislation to ban live ammunition and firearms capable of shooting live ammunition on Hollywood productions in California.
the link to the underline, if anyone is interested.
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... estigation
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Re: Another Shooting

#209

Post by filly »

roadscholar wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:30 am
filly wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:06 am
roadscholar wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:57 am Many friends worked on movies, some still do, and AFAIK the actors do not play any part in verifying weapon status. You can’t trust actors can tell a blank round from a real one. The armorer is tasked with that and with making sure live rounds are not even present on the set. At all. Ever.

There was a lot of unprofessional sloppiness going on here, but it wasn’t Baldwin’s.
Except he was a Producer as well. Facts will need to be developed.
In that case, the actual gun mixup still wasn't his fault, but perhaps the sloppiness and professional lapses on that set, to some extent, were.
It certainly has civil liability implications, maybe. Which is why facts need to be developed. Not sure why that would be controversial.
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Re: Another Shooting

#210

Post by Uninformed »

“Donald Trump Jr. Is Hawking Shockingly Tacky ‘Alec Baldwin Kills People’ T-Shirts”:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-tr ... e-t-shirts

“The oldest Trump son, Donald Jr., is hawking $27.99 T-shirts on his official site with the mocking slogan: “Guns don’t kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people.” On his Instagram stories, the Trump son also posted a photoshopped pic of the actor wearing one of the Ts.”

:roll:
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Re: Another Shooting

#211

Post by raison de arizona »

Uninformed wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:04 pm “Donald Trump Jr. Is Hawking Shockingly Tacky ‘Alec Baldwin Kills People’ T-Shirts”:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-tr ... e-t-shirts

“The oldest Trump son, Donald Jr., is hawking $27.99 T-shirts on his official site with the mocking slogan: “Guns don’t kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people.” On his Instagram stories, the Trump son also posted a photoshopped pic of the actor wearing one of the Ts.”

:roll:
What a degenerate asshole to try to make a buck off a tragedy like this. Par for the course, I suppose. I feel badly for Halyna Hutchins' family.

Tweet from her husband:
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Re: Another Shooting

#212

Post by Phoenix520 »

In that case, the actual gun mixup still wasn't his fault, but perhaps the sloppiness and professional lapses on that set, to some extent, were.
As was the choice to use non-union labor and an “inexperienced” (read “cheaper”) armorer. Perhaps not his choice alone, but as producer he would have had a lot of say.
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Re: Another Shooting

#213

Post by AndyinPA »

From the outset, they said this was a low-budget movie. This is one of the ways you keep a movie low budget. :(
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Re: Another Shooting

#214

Post by bob »

Phoenix520 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:40 pm Perhaps not his choice alone, but as producer he would have had a lot of say.
I anticipate the argument that Baldwin was a producer, not the shotcaller (or "showrunner"). (Hollywood , as we know, has a long history of handing out the "producer" title to those who have no decision-making ability (or responsibility).)

But I agree there will be an investigation into how much power Baldwin wielded. Both on paper and the reality that this project wouldn't exist if he wasn't attached to it.
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Re: Another Shooting

#215

Post by Phoenix520 »

You are, as usual, correct. I even debated whether I should add ‘a’ before producer. ;)
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Re: Another Shooting

#216

Post by bbflatt »

From IMDB.com:

Alec Baldwin ... producer
Kc Brandenstein ... co-producer
Allen Cheney ... executive producer
Matt DelPiano ... producer
Tyler Gould ... executive producer
Matthew Helderman ... executive producer
Nathan Klingher ... producer
Anjul Nigam ... producer
Emily Hunter Salveson ... executive producer
Ryan Donnell Smith ... producer
Luke Taylor ... executive producer
Ryan Winterstern ... producer

Lotsa possibilities for finger pointing.
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Re: Another Shooting

#217

Post by Phoenix520 »

A commercial I worked on for a TimeWarner book called Witches and Warlocks is a good example of why a production might prefer a RTW state for their non-union movie.

It was a 2 minute commercial for cable. One segment used the then-mind boggling and new technology called morphing. Morphing happens in post-production, but you needed to be precise in your placements on set for it to work right. The only morphing equipment in LA at the time was owned by Merv Griffin Enterprises. The scene involved a frog morphing into a cat morphing into a raven morphing into a witch.

So. Required onset just for this 15 second segment of a two minute commercial:
A veterinarian
A frog wrangler
A cat wrangler
A raven wrangler
A representative from Merv Griffin
Cast and crew
Set doctor
An actual witch (she was also the veterinarian, and the first woman jockey licensed in NY. She assisted the animal wranglers, as she seemingly communicated with animals by telepathy. If one was acting up (how can you tell if a frog is ‘acting up’?) she would simply touch it and it would calm down.)

Each one of them was earning union wages. TimeWarner was happy to pay. Papa John’s, you might not be surprised to hear, bitched about every penny.

It both is and isn’t a ridiculous system. Each person on set has a job to do, and only that job. You really don’t want the key grip, for example, to split his time between making sure weapons are in good order, and camera placement. Both require focus; one would get short shrift if both jobs were handled by one person.

It works as it is supposed to: both as an employment guarantee and a safety precaution.
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Re: Another Shooting

#218

Post by noblepa »

Slim Cognito wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:43 am I'm sure many actors are gun owners, but how would an actor check to see if the appropriate materials were in the prop gun? Are they supposed to know that? I sure as heck wouldn't have a clue?
You have a point. However, I think that, if I were an actor and the part called for me to fire a gun, I would talk to the armorer and find out how to check the gun, and what kind of ammo should be loaded and ask them to show me the difference between a blank and a real bullet. Then, after the gun (I'm assuming its a handgun) was handed to me on the set, I would break it open and visually inspect it to make sure that the rounds looked like the ones the armorer had shown me. I am no gun expert, but even I can tell the difference between a round with a real lead slug and one with paper wadding.

And I would never, ever point a gun at someone at point blank range and pull the trigger. As has been discussed here, blanks can be lethal at close range. If the script calls for that, use an empty gun and add the sound of the gunshot in post-production. Or ask the director to shoot the scene from an angle that allows the actor to point the gun harmlessly past the "victim" but looks like its being pointed directly at the other actor.

Maybe I'm off base here, but I think that there is too little safety supervision on movie/tv sets.
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Re: Another Shooting

#219

Post by noblepa »

It should be SOP for the person calling out "cold gun" to have PERSONALLY verified that it was, indeed cold. He/she should not take anyone's word for it. To me, this is part and parcel of what I call "the first rule of gun safety" which is that every gun is treated as loaded every time.

It should also be SOP that the armorer must PERSONALLY hand the gun to the actor. It should not be given to an assistant director, who hands it to the director who hands it to the actor. It is the armorer's job and responsibility to insure that the weapon is properly loaded. He/she is the person on the set who is most qualified to make that determination. In fact, I think that no one other than the armorer, his assistant and the actor should be handling a weapon that is capable of firing even blanks.

When I worked on the railroad (and I assume that they still do it this way), there was a blue painted metal "flag" that was clamped to the rail next to a car when someone needed to work under the car, to repair a faulty brake or something. The rule was that NO ONE could remove the flag, except the person who put it there. By claiming that a gun is cold, the person making that claim should be held accountable if the gun is not really cold.
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Re: Another Shooting

#220

Post by Uninformed »

To be totally safe “real guns” with “real ammunition” should never be pointed anywhere near a person. The wadding from blanks will probably fragment and not fly in a straight path to the aiming point. It is possible for a blank cartridge case to rupture sending pieces of metal down the barrel. In some cases the gun itself can fail to contain the firing of a cartridge, especially with old weapons. Guns should be treated as possible explosive devices no matter how rarely they fail to function correctly - every time a gun is fired the shooter trusts it will not malfunction. Unintended incidents will occur. Guns are dangerous.
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Re: Another Shooting

#221

Post by Foggy »

I grew up watching Westerns. In those days, I heard, actors really did have to be familiar with guns and accurate at shooting. And they had to really know how to ride a horsie, or they'd look ridiculous on film. They had to have many of the exact same skills as the cowboys they portrayed.

One time when I was maybe 10 in the Sierra Nevada mountains near Lake Tahoe I got thrown from a horsie and knocked unconscious, out like a light, I bonked my headbone. And I had to get on the back of someone else's horsie to ride back to camp, because it was 5 miles away and I couldn't possibly walk it in my condition. I probably had a concussion, but there were no doctors around.

So I got up on someone else's horsie, double occupancy, and rode back to camp.

Ten years old, baby. That was the day I realized I was a real cowboy. :thumbsup:
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Re: Another Shooting

#222

Post by AndyinPA »

Two are now dead.

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/crime ... 4c0f8dc216

BOISE, Idaho — According to the Boise Police Department, officers responded to a reported shooting at the Boise Towne Square Mall on Monday afternoon that left five people and an officer injured.

The Boise Police Department tweeted at about 2:15 p.m. MT that officers were responding to shots fired at the Boise Towne Square Mall on Milwaukee Street, which is between Fairview and Franklin roads.

Boise PD tweeted that five people and a Boise Police officer were injured in the shooting. Law enforcement is now working to notify the people's families.

In a statement, Ada County Coroner Dotti Owens said she can confirm that the coroner's office is responding. She added that she does not anticipate releasing any further information until Tuesday, Oct. 26.
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Re: Another Shooting

#223

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https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2021/10 ... ittsburgh/
PITTSBURGH (KDKA) — Today is a day Pittsburgh will never forget, marking three years since 11 lives were lost in the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in United States history.

On Oct. 27, 2018, a normal Saturday in Squirrel Hill became an unimaginable nightmare when a gunman opened fire inside the Tree of Life Synagogue, killing 11 people and injuring several others.

Now, three years later, we pause to remember and reflect in spirit and action.

An official commemoration ceremony will take place on Wednesday in Schenley Park. Pittsburgh Mayor Bill Peduto and Allegheny County Executive Rich Fitzgerald are expected to be in attendance.
The trial still has not taken place.
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Re: Another Shooting

#224

Post by neeneko »

AndyinPA wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:05 pm The trial still has not taken place.
The US really needs to work on the whole 'speedy trial' thing.
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Re: Another Shooting

#225

Post by bob »

neeneko wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:22 pm
AndyinPA wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:05 pm The trial still has not taken place.
The US really needs to work on the whole 'speedy trial' thing.
Defendants routinely waive their right to a speedy trial, for a variety of reasons.

And prosecutors often agree to continuances, again for a variety of reasons.

* * *

NDTV: Criminal Charges Against Alec Baldwin Not Ruled Out: US Official On Prop Gun Incident:
An investigation into last Thursday's fatal shooting has recovered 500 rounds of ammunition from the set in New Mexico, Sheriff Adan Mendoza told reporters, adding detectives believe they were a mix of blanks, dummies and live rounds.

Criminal charges against actor Alec Baldwin, who shot dead a cinematographer and wounded the director on the set of his latest movie, have not been ruled out, the local district attorney said Wednesday.

"All options are on the table," said Santa Fe District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies.

"No one has been ruled out at this point."
The headline's slant notwithstanding, I would not be surprised if someone was charged with a crime.
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