United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

User avatar
bob
Posts: 2660
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:07 am

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#26

Post by bob »

LM K wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:00 amAnd even IF we were discussing Catholicism amongst older generations, a sample size of 9 is irrelevant.
And that was neeneko's point: even (especially) among the most recent nominees, Catholics are overrepresented on the Supreme Court.


Image ImageImage
User avatar
LM K
Posts: 3101
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Location: Oregon
Occupation:: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
Contact:

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#27

Post by LM K »

Priest: The big question for Catholic bishops is not really about Joe Biden and Communion
Every time I place Communion in someone's hand or tongue, it is an act of faith -- on my part and on that of the communicant. I say the words, "the body of Christ," to which the response is "Amen," meaning "it is true" or "let it be so" -- not always said with certainty but, often, with hope.

This revered sacrament of Communion is meant to signify what the word means: with oneness, with unity. The contentious debate of this week's American Catholic bishops' meeting threatens to have this sacrament become a symbol of division and a political and religious weapon. I wonder what the Jesus who prayed, "Father, may they all be one," would think.

The division among the American bishops became readily apparent soon after the election of President Joe Biden, when the bishops' conference formed a working group to deal with Biden's public stance favoring abortion rights, which collides with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

On Inauguration Day, the US Bishops' Conference president, Archbishop Jose Gomez, of Los Angeles, issued a statement that warned: "Our new President has pledged to pursue certain policies that would advance moral evils." Some of his fellow bishops decried the statement as a "weaponization of the Eucharist" for political purposes.

The virtual bishops' meeting this week brought the issue front and center as they debated whether to draft a document regarding the Eucharist. Some bishops maintain that such a document should confront what to do about Communion and Catholic politicians. The result of the meeting -- a lopsided vote of 24% opposed and 73% in favor of pressing ahead with the document -- was as evident a display of disunity among the episcopacy as we have seen, with some openly questioning their fellow bishops' motives.

Pope Francis has been quoted as saying, "The Eucharist is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak." A letter from the Vatican had appealed for "extensive and serene dialogue" and suggested that the bishops consult with other episcopal conferences before making any decision on drafting a document on the Eucharist.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark, New Jersey, summarized the feelings of bishops who opposed drafting the document: "The proposal before us presents us with a stark and historic choice. Voting in the affirmative will produce a document, not unity. Voting against it will allow us to work together in dialogue to forge a broad agreement on the serious questions embedded in the issue of Eucharistic worthiness."

The sentiment of the "pro-Francis" bishops like Tobin was not heeded. That 75% of the bishops voted to draft the document, solidifying a veritable schism among American bishops that will continue to play out until their next meeting in November, when they will gather in person for the first time in two years to debate and vote on the still-to-be-drafted document.

The almost hostile display of disunity among the bishops has been disheartening for many of the faithful. Where, they wonder, was the ire of some of these "pro-document" bishops with the flagrantly objectionable behavior of the former President, who openly opposed teachings of the Catholic Church on issues such as immigration, capital punishment, poverty, racism and climate change, and who was cruel toward the weak, the poor, people of color and people with disabilities? Where was their outrage when Trump attacked Pope Francis as being "disgraceful" and a "political pawn?"

Yes, Donald Trump is not Roman Catholic and was not receiving Communion, but is that the only litmus test we have by which to call politicians to act as moral agents? If they are not one of us, are we saying, who cares?

Joe Biden is a practicing Catholic who goes to Mass even when he is traveling in foreign countries, as we saw last week when he attended Mass in Cornwall during the G7 summit. In his 2007 book, "Promises to Keep," he wrote that while he is "personally opposed to abortion," he didn't feel he had the "right to impose (his) view on the rest of society,'" the same argument made by former New York governor, Mario Cuomo, in his famous Notre Dame University speech. (He risked excommunication for his views on abortion rights but was not barred from Communion.)

While I think that Biden's abortion stance is a politically expedient one that is inconsistent with other pro-life issues that he has championed, I think the issue of his reception of Communion is a private matter between him and his confessor. Can anyone else truly know the heart and intent of someone? One's reception of Communion is in accord with personal deliberation based on one's informed moral conscience. The person makes the decision, not the bishops or even the Pope.
"Eucharistic worthiness."? That term disturbs me.

What exactly do these American bishops expect? Is Biden supposed to sign an executive order outlawing abortion? Is he supposed to tell all Americans that those who support abortion should and are going to hell? What do these bishops want!?

Those who voted yes are selling the Eucharist. They're literally prostituting the body of Christ.


"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
User avatar
raison de arizona
Posts: 9335
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:21 am
Location: Nothing, Arizona
Occupation:: bit twiddler

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#28

Post by raison de arizona »

I have so many problems with this I don’t even know where to begin.


"Take these seeds and put them in your pocket, so at least sunflowers will grow when you all die here."
User avatar
MN-Skeptic
Posts: 1525
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:03 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#29

Post by MN-Skeptic »

LM K wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:38 am Those who voted yes are selling the Eucharist. They're literally prostituting the body of Christ.
The Catholic Church seems to have a real problem with a loving, forgiving God. They want to set up barriers between believers and the Almighty. This "selling the Eucharist" seems like a cousin to their indulgences.


User avatar
neonzx
Posts: 3137
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:01 am

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#30

Post by neonzx »

MN-Skeptic wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:42 am The Catholic Church seems to have a real problem with a loving, forgiving God. They want to set up barriers between believers and the Almighty.
It's okay. When they pass the offertory baskets down the rows, if you sufficiently toss in money, you'll buy your way to the Almighty. 8-)


User avatar
RTH10260
Posts: 5912
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 am
Location: Switzerland, near the Alps

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#31

Post by RTH10260 »

MN-Skeptic wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:42 am
LM K wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:38 am Those who voted yes are selling the Eucharist. They're literally prostituting the body of Christ.
The Catholic Church seems to have a real problem with a loving, forgiving God. They want to set up barriers between believers and the Almighty. This "selling the Eucharist" seems like a cousin to their indulgences.
It's the believe of the Catholic hierarchy that they are the sole gatekeeper between the mere mortal humans and the deity. The only ones that can rpesent the truth as by their interpretation of the sciptures. For that they have set up the runlebook of Catechism for the lowly humans who cannot undertand what is written in Greek / Latin / Aramaic.

The Protestant Revolution by Luther et al. redefined the playing grounds, defined that everyone owned a Red Phone line connectec directly to the upper speheres. And the priest is assistance only in interpreting scripture for them.


User avatar
neeneko
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:32 am

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#32

Post by neeneko »

The more I think about it, the more I wonder about the possible repercussions of such a plan. It was not all that long ago that protestants in the US were worried about possible conflicts of allegiance with catholics in public office... if they could be commanded by the clergy or the pope to do something, would they?

Here we have clergy attempting to influence a sitting president by threatening to withhold a sacrament if he fails to enforce the chruch's will in public policy. If they go through with this, people will have pretty legitimate concerns that this type of pressure could also be applied to people in other elected positions or even unelected judicial appointments.

Seems like they are betting on catholic aligned people to have amassed enough power that they can not be unseated, but still be influence by the clergy.... though I could also see it as a cynical ploy to drive a wedge between progressive catholics and other progressives, forcing more moderates over to the conservative side.


User avatar
filly
Posts: 1724
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:02 am

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#33

Post by filly »

This demonstrates amazing cruelty on the part of those bishops, weaponizing the Holy Eucharist against a man whose faith has often been the only thing holding him together and willing him to live.

Then combine that with the cruelty of some who have tried to weaponize the death of Biden's beloved dog against him! One particular asshole on Twitter (who writes for the National Review Online and lists "Catholic" on his bio) took a shot at Champ AND Beau's death. These people will certainly burn in hell, if there is one.


User avatar
LM K
Posts: 3101
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Location: Oregon
Occupation:: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
Contact:

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#34

Post by LM K »

About SCOTUS.

2 of the Catholic SCOTUS members were appointed by Trump, who has always been pathetically indulgant of conservative religious groups. Selecting Catholics was an appeal to anti-abortion and anti-gay groups. Trump doesn't understand that a fair number of American Catholics support abortion. (They have abortions as similar rates as other American demographic groups.. 1/4 Catholic women have had an abortion.*)

SCOTUS selections are political. Conservative presidents select Catholics to appeal to anti-abortion and anti-gay Americans. Catholics are the best selections for anti-abortion and anti-gay Americans.

One reason I think Francis was selected to be Pope. His social justice beliefs and practices could save catholism.

*
The same goes for abortion. In fact, research has consistently shown that the majority of people who obtain an abortion have a religious affiliation. According to the most recent Guttmacher Institute data, in 2014:

17% of abortion patients identified as mainline Protestant;

13% as evangelical Protestant;

24% as Catholic;

38% reported no religious affiliation; and

8% reported some other affiliation
Edit: a bunch removed because of whoopsie!


"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
User avatar
LM K
Posts: 3101
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Location: Oregon
Occupation:: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
Contact:

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#35

Post by LM K »

MN-Skeptic wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:42 am
LM K wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:38 am Those who voted yes are selling the Eucharist. They're literally prostituting the body of Christ.
The Catholic Church seems to have a real problem with a loving, forgiving God. They want to set up barriers between believers and the Almighty. This "selling the Eucharist" seems like a cousin to their indulgences.
I disagree. I think the average catholic believes in a loving and caring God.

The Catholic church does a an excellent job on social justice issues. They offer very necessary assistance to the poor, the homeless, and to immigrants. Overall, they don't have a "worthiness" test for whom should be helped.

The American bishops are a bunch of old farts. They are not in tune with the average catholic.


"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
User avatar
SuzieC
Posts: 459
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:25 am
Location: Blue oasis in red state; retired lawyer

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#36

Post by SuzieC »

filly wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:01 pm This demonstrates amazing cruelty on the part of those bishops, weaponizing the Holy Eucharist against a man whose faith has often been the only thing holding him together and willing him to live.

Then combine that with the cruelty of some who have tried to weaponize the death of Biden's beloved dog against him! One particular asshole on Twitter (who writes for the National Review Online and lists "Catholic" on his bio) took a shot at Champ AND Beau's death. These people will certainly burn in hell, if there is one.
It is unbelievable that there are such vile Catholics and so-called pretend Christians who would stoop this low. Whoever that Twitter asshole is, I hope he burns for eternity in some kind of hell.


User avatar
Reality Check
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:46 pm
Contact:

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#37

Post by Reality Check »

I ran across this article in the publication Catholic World Report. It was written by a non-Catholic (although he says he is married to a Catholic) who is cheer leading the Catholic Church to withhold communion from Joe Biden. I think the entire premise is sickening. They do not seem to be big fans of Pope Francis on this rag either.

I take my non-Catholicism seriously: Reflections on not receiving the Eucharist


User avatar
Suranis
Posts: 2855
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:25 pm

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#38

Post by Suranis »

No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen@NoLieWithBTC
·
18h
BREAKING: Pope Francis criticizes US bishops who are trying to deny communion to President Biden because Biden believes in separation of church and state: "Bishops must be pastors, not politicians."
I'm sure this will be as widely reported as the Bishops comments. :sarcasm:


Hic sunt dracones
User avatar
neeneko
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:32 am

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#39

Post by neeneko »

Suranis wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:35 am
No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen@NoLieWithBTC
·
18h
BREAKING: Pope Francis criticizes US bishops who are trying to deny communion to President Biden because Biden believes in separation of church and state: "Bishops must be pastors, not politicians."
I'm sure this will be as widely reported as the Bishops comments. :sarcasm:
I sometimes wonder what it would take for the US branch of the Catholic Church to break off. I am actually a bit surprised there has not been a more dramatic showdown over some issue yet.


User avatar
Foggy
Dick Tater
Posts: 4922
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am
Location: TOP SECRET Fogbow HQ
Occupation:: muttering and puttering

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#40

Post by Foggy »

Our king hasn't needed a divorce. :whistle:


We are NOT going back! - Nancy Pelosi
Mood: injudicious
User avatar
AndyinPA
Posts: 5254
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#41

Post by AndyinPA »

:thumbsup:


"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow, GOT
Uninformed
Posts: 1744
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:13 pm
Location: England

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#42

Post by Uninformed »

Foggy wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:15 am Our king hasn't needed a divorce. :whistle:
I thought he has had two, so far. :mrgreen:


If you can't lie to yourself, who can you lie to?
User avatar
Foggy
Dick Tater
Posts: 4922
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am
Location: TOP SECRET Fogbow HQ
Occupation:: muttering and puttering

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#43

Post by Foggy »

Ours is fake. :smoking:


We are NOT going back! - Nancy Pelosi
Mood: injudicious
User avatar
Azastan
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:48 pm

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#44

Post by Azastan »

neeneko wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:08 am

I sometimes wonder what it would take for the US branch of the Catholic Church to break off. I am actually a bit surprised there has not been a more dramatic showdown over some issue yet.
The US branch would have to purchase all the property currently belonging to the Vatican, and give up funding by the Vatican. I don't think the Vatican would want to sell its holdings. That means the schismatic group would need to come up with the cash to buy their own churches, cathedrals, garments, etc., etc.

Exactly how many people currently considering themselves Catholics would move to another 'Catholic' church? There's already the opportunity to do so with Mel Gibson's father's group.

Sounds as if Francis needs to retire some people in the US.


User avatar
neeneko
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:32 am

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#45

Post by neeneko »

Azastan wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:03 pm The US branch would have to purchase all the property currently belonging to the Vatican, and give up funding by the Vatican. I don't think the Vatican would want to sell its holdings. That means the schismatic group would need to come up with the cash to buy their own churches, cathedrals, garments, etc., etc.
This is one of the implementation details I have been wondering about. I have no idea how the ownership is structured and if the chain of ownership passes through to the Vatican or if the various Catholic groups in the US are legally their own organization and their ties are purely religious.


User avatar
Azastan
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:48 pm

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#46

Post by Azastan »

neeneko wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:11 pm
Azastan wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:03 pm The US branch would have to purchase all the property currently belonging to the Vatican, and give up funding by the Vatican. I don't think the Vatican would want to sell its holdings. That means the schismatic group would need to come up with the cash to buy their own churches, cathedrals, garments, etc., etc.
This is one of the implementation details I have been wondering about. I have no idea how the ownership is structured and if the chain of ownership passes through to the Vatican or if the various Catholic groups in the US are legally their own organization and their ties are purely religious.
Here you go:

Catholic Church property belongs, according to canon law, to the juridic person that lawfully acquired it (Canon 1256). A physical person, such as a bishop or a parish pastor, cannot lawfully, according to canon law, own church property ; however, physical persons are the administrators of church property .
Also, see this link;

https://ordinariate.net/parish-property-ownership


User avatar
LM K
Posts: 3101
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Location: Oregon
Occupation:: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
Contact:

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#47

Post by LM K »

Pope Francis says bishops should be pastors, not politicians in US debate on denying Biden communion over abortion
Pope Francis on Wednesday said bishops debating whether to deny communion to public figures who support abortion rights, such as President Joe Biden, should make their decisions from a "pastoral" viewpoint and not a political one.

"The problem is not theological, it's pastoral,"
Francis told reporters while traveling from Slovakia to Rome on Wednesday."How we bishops deal with this principle. We must be pastors, also with those who are excommunicated. Like God with passion and tenderness. The Bible says so."

His comments come amid a simmering debate within the US Catholic Church over granting communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights, including the nation's second Catholic President. Biden had been denied the sacrament in the run-up to the election and the issue drew new attention in June when the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops proceeded with a plan that could deny communion to such public figures, setting up a potential public rebuke of the President.

By a vote of 168 to 55, with six abstentions, the bishops had gone forward with plans for a report on the meaning of the Eucharist in the church. The vote is part of a longer process, and the Vatican would have to approve any action on behalf of the bishops.
:snippity:

Pew surveys show more than half of US Catholics favor abortion rights and most American Catholics do not believe Biden should be refused communion.

"The pastor knows what to do. In every moment that he leaves the church's pastoral path he immediately becomes a politician," Francis said Wednesday.


"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
User avatar
neeneko
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:32 am

Re: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

#48

Post by neeneko »

Azastan wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:14 pm Here you go:
Catholic Church property belongs, according to canon law, to the juridic person that lawfully acquired it (Canon 1256). A physical person, such as a bishop or a parish pastor, cannot lawfully, according to canon law, own church property ; however, physical persons are the administrators of church property .
Also, see this link;

https://ordinariate.net/parish-property-ownership
Ah, but that is religious law, which if they were going to split, they would not be beholden to anyway.
The thing I am wondering is how the actual ownership is handled under US law. What are the legal entities involved and do they have a legally enforceable command structure up to the Pope?


Post Reply

Return to “Religion and Politics”