Finicum Lawsuit

[bob]

Too also: The occupation is over; the lawsuit is over. Literally nothing said here will change these facts.

Speculative fiction about what you wished had happened, or the lawsuit you wished was filed under laws you wish existed, also will not change these facts.

[Reality Check]

Also I do not see how the lack of a “safe perimeter” can have any legally arguable effect related to the sequence of events that led to the waste of Finicum’s life.

The problem with this "safe perimeter" nonsense idea is that the occupiers controlled a fire tower with a clear shot at any LE personnel within range of a high powered rifle. It just wasn't practical. The FBI made the decision to allow passage in and out of the preserve up to a point in order to avoid a confrontation. Others have mentioned plausible reasons for doing this to avoid another Waco or Ruby Ridge outcome.

I advocated shutting off power to the preserve to freeze the idiots out. I was told by some folks here who shall remain nameless and had no clue what they were talking about that this was not feasible. It certainly was an option and the FBI said that it was considered but they wanted to keep the heat on to prevent damage to the buildings. As I also predicted they filled up the bathrooms with their crap and ended up pooping in a ditch.

One could question some of the tactics of how the FBI and other LE agencies handled the siege but it would have ended without bloodshed if only Finicum had not behaved like a moron. If you want to blame anyone for the fact he lost his life (other than Finicum) look no further than the Bundy assholes.

[Uninformed]

[woodworker]

Also I do not see how the lack of a “safe perimeter” can have any legally arguable effect related to the sequence of events that led to the waste of Finicum’s life.

Had SOP been followed in establishing a perimeter (within 24 days of the crime), Finicum would never been stopped in the fashion he was. Instead, he and the rest of the occupants would have been given a different opportunity to surrender, one less dangerous to himself and others - including law enforcement.

Again, shut the roads, cut off the power, Internet, visitors and starve them out.

Excuse me, but what the fuck was stopping him from surrendering all along? The other terrorists were not having show trials against people who left or wanted to leave. If he wanted to surrender, all he had to do was put down his weapon and walk up to the nearest LEO. You keep trying, despite your denials, to glorify him and blame the LEO. Just admit it -- be an honest fanboy of this asshole LaVoy.

[bob]

Just admit it -- be an honest fanboy of this asshole LaVoy.

But he had a summer job as a lifeguard!

[scirreeve]

Well FFS SParky, maybe LaVoy should have stayed in Cincinnati and watched this shit on TV.

Very unimportant correction. LaChoy came from Arizona, not Cincinnati. Pistilli came from Cincinnati and Fry came from somewhere in Ohio as well (don't remember where).

[ZinWhit]

Just admit it -- be an honest fanboy of this asshole LaVoy.

This "fanboy" knew and wrote about LaVoy Finicum and his enablers likely before you or anyone on this board knew of him or the Hammonds, my take more nuanced and researched than most anyone.

Assholes are bipartisan and come from all walks of life. I try to take an honest approach as everyone has a backstory and resultant motives. My bias following this set of actors that included Finicum is public lands and knowing LDS rackets, not law enforcement like I suspect some on this forum and certainly not simply invective drama like others. Remember your biases.

So, for the record:

Did LaVoy fuck up? Yeah.
Did LE fuck up? Yeah.
Did the prosecution fuck up? Yeah.
Did I fuck up again speaking on this and any other Sagebrush Reb topic on the internet yet again? Absolutely.

I'm taking my sticks and going home to play the drums on my porch overlooking the garden. Wish me luck.

[scirreeve]

It is silly to accuse ZinWhit of being a LaVoy fanboy. I have interacted with him on SM for years. He might have questions about the process but I can assure everyone that he is NOT a poot supporter. Quite the contrary actually. He knows a lot about poot stuff. I disagree with him on some stuff but that is how life works. His voice is important when discussing these idiots.

[Maybenaut]

It is silly to accuse ZinWhit of being a LaVoy fanboy. I have interacted with him on SM for years. He might have questions about the process but I can assure everyone that he is NOT a poot supporter. Quite the contrary actually. He knows a lot about poot stuff. I disagree with him on some stuff but that is how life works. His voice is important when discussing these idiots.

My issue with what he’s been saying is merely that he appears to believe that there is something Jeanette’s lawyers could have said or done with respect to her lawsuit against the United States. There wasn’t, which came as a surprise to none of the lawyers on this board.

[scirreeve]

It is silly to accuse ZinWhit of being a LaVoy fanboy. I have interacted with him on SM for years. He might have questions about the process but I can assure everyone that he is NOT a poot supporter. Quite the contrary actually. He knows a lot about poot stuff. I disagree with him on some stuff but that is how life works. His voice is important when discussing these idiots.

My issue with what he’s been saying is merely that he appears to believe that there is something Jeanette’s lawyers could have said or done with respect to her lawsuit against the United States. There wasn’t, which came as a surprise to none of the lawyers on this board.

Yeah - he is not a legal dude but he knows a lot about the Bundy idiots and can contribute to this board. I read the Presiding Judge's order and opinion. It was all clear to me except the part about dismissing the claims against the OSP officers and their supervisor. Magistrate Judge had recommended that those charges proceed but Presiding Judge disagreed. Something about whether the claims were filed timely since originally they had filed against "John Does" and whether or not they had timely ID'd the actual defendants. Judge said there were some cases prior that had ruled both ways but decided that they hadn't filed in time. IANAL and try to understand this shit but do not pretend to get it so probably have some stuff wrong. Anyway I try to stay in my lane and legal stuff is definitely not my lane.

[Maybenaut]

I hear ya. I just get frustrated when people don’t like the result so they assume it’s because of crappy lawyering. I don’t know much about the issues involving the OSP, but a lot of people (myself included) were predicting the FTCA claims against the US would get tossed for lack of jurisdiction. I’m not saying there wasn’t crappy lawyering, but it wasn’t of the he-should-have-made-this-argument variety.

[Gene Kooper]

My bias following this set of actors that included Finicum is public lands and knowing LDS rackets, not law enforcement like I suspect some on this forum and certainly not simply invective drama like others.

I'm taking my sticks and going home to play the drums on my porch overlooking the garden. Wish me luck.

Please post your insights and knowledge of the Public Lands. That is a conversation I'd participate in. The Nineteenth and early Twentieth century federal legislation related to the disposition of the Public Lands is an interesting topic, esp. for me as a Colorado land surveyor. The Bundys, esp. Cliven and Ammon think they own over 100,000 acres of Public Lands because their ancestors supposedly "squatted" on the land and acquired it under the authority of the preemption laws. Pure, unadulterated bovine excrement, but what do you expect from stupid people.

I just finished some research for an attorney representing the seller of the land where there were all sorts of questions involving homesteads and mining claims so the topic is fresh. What do you say ZinWhit?

I was raised on a family cattle ranch in the Sandhills. There is an old saying about wanna-be cowboys like Lavoy I'm fond of "All hat, no cattle!"

[Uninformed]

One of the interesting facets of the MNWR occupation - supposedly in support of actual ranchers - was that almost everybody involved had little or no involvement in ranching or the use of federal lands, even the Bundy brothers.

The interaction of “Sagebrush” land users (some of whom simply want free land), people who believe the States should control all land within their borders, the large contingent of disaffected citizens who just want a cause, the politicians who see it as a way to attract votes (and make money?) in ‘rural” areas, and most importantly those who wish to gain financially by acquiring federal land, make a confused and complicated alliance. The overlap with the various efforts to carve out new States that seem largely based on religious, and somewhat racist, adds another layer.

As Zinwhit has written there has been a lack of investigation into how this “movement” is funded. This may be partly due to the difficulty of obtaining financial information and the effort required to try to do so, and the fact that most interested parties are content that it is the long-standing usual suspects. ‘Following the money” would do much to deflate the romantic notion that this is about the little man against overreaching government.

[Suranis]

One of Amonns stated goals at Malheur was to open the land up to Mining and he specifically mentioned Uranium mining possibly as that was a ht button topic at the time.

[Uninformed]

True, but as I understand it the uranium deposits are in Malheur County not on the Reserve. Much like Mike Lindell, the leaders of the occupation, especially Shawna Cox, said on many occasions that they were going to find and show proof that the Reserve lands were stolen. It’s troublesome territory to get into the apparent LDS philosophy that all things on earth are there to be used/exploited by mankind.

[RTH10260]

Just a P.S.

How lucky we have been that there was no perimeter. There would have been no stories about vanilla creamer supplies and of gummi bears dildos

[ZinWhit]

This will be my last post in this topic. Written a week before Finicum's death for the SUIndy (I had a regular column for awhile), it explains my fanboy status (thanks, Reeve).

***

What Would Edward Abbey Say About LaVoy Finicum?

Jan 2016

For the last few months I have been following the lead up to the Malheur takeover and have paid particularly close attention to LaVoy Finicum, who I have come to respect in a weird kind of way. I believe he is a man of principle - even though I believe his constitutional and legal principles are way off. I think he is a good man who speaks from his heart and certainly deserves my praise as acting on his convictions.

Edward Abbey is one of my favorite authors.

“The Monkey Wrench Gang” is about environmental activists who want to blow up the Glen Canyon Dam in order to restore the heart of the canyon country. While enroute, they sabotage various facilities of environmental destruction while being on the run from Bishop Love, an LDS southern Utah County Commissioner with some issues. This book is generally credited with spawning the term eco terrorist.

When I moved west from Wisconsin, the land of Muir, Leopold and Powell, I didn’t care one bit for ranchers and their cattle. I viewed them as self righteous people who bellyached of how they were screwed by being allowed a heavily publicly subsidized way of life - including the hidden subsidy of environmental impact. I read the Monkey Wrench, first, and Abbey infected my thoughts. Turns out I was self righteous.

After college in the 1990s I was lucky enough to work at Capitol Reef National Park and even luckier to live in Teasdale with the Mummy Cliffs at the base of Thousand Lake out my bathroom window and next to a 100 year old rock house made by Franz Weber out of Wingate. I ate local history books and began to meet and greet real cowboys and real ranchers - both big and small.

Keith Durfey was a big guy and owned the Notom Ranch, east of the Waterpocket Fold. A smile always on his face and a pious man, he was the park’s range specialist and part time horse packer for dignitaries like Congress People when they toured the park. He and I would have rangeland and local history discussions that affected me deeply. I liked that we could talk given our opposing views, and he changed the hate I had in my heart.

When I left Capitol Reef Keith gave me a wooden sign made from weathered barn board backed with barbed wire to hang it, a large cowpie in the middle with the routed statement, “Better Cows the Condos”. I have carried that around with me for 20 years.

Fire on the Mountain” is another Abbey novel about a story of an old rancher, his grandson, and their battles against the federal government who wants to take their land. They live in New Mexico adjacent to an USAF facility and they want his land for a bombing range. The old fella is the last hold out, along with his grandson. Abbey describes the ranchers love of the land and how these values are being passed on to fewer generations as each year passes.

“Brave Cowboy” is a story of a principled 1950s cowboy struggling with the changes that society brings and was made into a movie starring Kirk Douglas called “Lonely are the Brave.” He rides a horse instead of using a car and eventually is pursued by a local sheriff who sympathizes with the cowboy - and despises the violent response from his pursuing federal government peers. In the end, well, I don’t want to spoil it for you but it has something to do with a truck carrying toilets.

In each of these books, Abbey creates characters and situations that portray the Cowboy and small rancher as principled, that these are inherently good people and sometimes their causes noble. That they are just having trouble adjusting to the changes of modern society and the priorities amorphously set. They push the boundaries of ethics and morality to do what they consider the right thing - afterward, accepting the consequences.

These books changed my perspective on cowboys and small ranchers. Although I still believe cattle are a public lands scourge, cowboys and small ranchers are not. These folks ARE impacted by changes in society and its priorities. It IS a heritage and way of life that is disappearing, like that of a small midwestern farmer. Their plight is personal and real, hitting deeply into the fabric of their family’s history and future.

And, in most cases, they are good, principled people who sometimes act desperately while trying to get by and do the right thing like everyone else.

So, after following LaVoy for months, I have come to the conclusion that he is worthy of the same depth of empathy - even though he has become a terrorist.

And I wonder what Edward Abbey would say.

[RVInit]

I'll just post my quick .02 cents, one thing that nobody has yet brought up. I was amazed at the almost heroic efforts one of the OSP officers made to reach Finicum and zap him with his taser so they wouldn't HAVE to shoot the guy with live bullets. Just watch the video again and pay attention to the guy with the taser - he tried his best to get within range of Finicum in order to put his nonsense to an end with a taser.

The police exhibited a great deal of restraint the first two times he reached for his gun, probably mainly because he was turning around in a circle the entire time he kept reaching for his gun and the first two times he reaches for the gun he's not facing LEO, he's facing his own car and his own friends. Or he's facing LEO that are safely behind vehicle and they all have him targeted. It was only when he reached the third time, when he was facing the OSP officer that had put away his gun and only had a taser that the other officers realized that an officer's life was in danger. It was the fact that he's not only reaching for his gun yet again, but he's now facing a LEO that is only armed with a taser and not close enough to Finicum to use that taser. That is why Finicum lost his life. He was posing a danger to the life of a law enforcement officer. I often believe LEO use deadly force unnecessarily, but I have say in this case I think it was justified. For all the reasons others have already pointed out as well as my additional .02.

[Dave from down under]

[Suranis]

I agree. There isn't a police officer on earth that wouldn't have taken that shot.

[Jerry Mander]

Good news! The widder Finicum has a new lawyer for her dead-in-the-water wrongful death suit. He’s also representing some of the Jan 6 insurrectionists, appropriately enough.

Send money now!

It matters how you turn Lavoy’s poor choices into cash!

https://fb.watch/7K9K45LefU/

[scirreeve]

Good news! The widder Finicum has a new lawyer for her dead-in-the-water wrongful death suit. He’s also representing some of the Jan 6 insurrectionists, appropriately enough.

Send money now!

It matters how you turn Lavoy’s poor choices into cash!

https://fb.watch/7K9K45LefU/

That is the lawyer supposedly in the hospital on a ventilator with COVID. Good choice Jeanette!

[poplove]

Case has been reassigned to another judge.

181
Aug 18, 2021

Notice of Case Reassignment: This case has been reassigned from Magistrate Judge Patricia Sullivan to Judge Michael W. Mosman. (eo) (Entered: 08/18/2021)

Case Reassignment Notice - FORM EVENT

[johnpcapitalist]

Good news! The widder Finicum has a new lawyer for her dead-in-the-water wrongful death suit. He’s also representing some of the Jan 6 insurrectionists, appropriately enough.

Send money now!

It matters how you turn Lavoy’s poor choices into cash!

https://fb.watch/7K9K45LefU/

That is the lawyer supposedly in the hospital on a ventilator with COVID. Good choice Jeanette!

Sounds like, in addition to Lavoy's poor choices in police interactions, the widder Finicum has made a few bad choices of her own when it comes to lawyer selection. How much of her cash (actually, the GoFundMe cash from the suckers who donated) has he disappeared with?

[poplove]

I popped into PACER and got the update on the judge swap. It was part of the case management plan.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .181.0.pdf